The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Justice League > Justice League

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-20-2018, 04:26 AM   #626
Ultra Nolanite
Side-Kick
 
Ultra Nolanite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,360
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by GothamBat View Post
This was a comment on the Deathstroke scene video:


Luthor: We need a league of our own....

Deathstroke: Stop right there, I'm in.

Luthor: You are?

Deathstroke: Yeah... I need.... Enemies.
LMAO

Luthor: "See I believe Friends are coming"

__________________



To the DCEU


"In time you will know what it's like to Lose.

To feel so desperately that you're right, yet fail all the same"
Ultra Nolanite is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 04:48 AM   #627
GothamBat
Protector of Gotham
 
GothamBat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Gotham city
Posts: 5,402
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Nolanite View Post
LMAO

Luthor: "See I believe Friends are coming"
Deathstroke: Can I keep this? *holds up Jesse Eisenberg's wig from BVS*

__________________
Only from fear comes courage... Only from the darkness can we truly feel the light.
GothamBat is online now  
Old 02-20-2018, 12:23 PM   #628
idiot09
Kicks side
 
idiot09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Somewhere.
Posts: 12,818
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -



http://www.geekexchange.com/news/jus...her-on-cyborg/

Great read! Ray Fisher is the man!

idiot09 is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 01:45 PM   #629
gdw
Side-Kick
 
gdw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Nowhere land, making all my Nowhere plans . . .
Posts: 5,864
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by idiot09 View Post


http://www.geekexchange.com/news/jus...her-on-cyborg/

Great read! Ray Fisher is the man!
Damn, does he ever get it.

__________________
You will never be forgoten Robert.

Thanks Cconn, for the avvy.

"Originally we wanted Bill Murray to play Batman." - Jon Peters.
gdw is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 04:38 PM   #630
kguillou
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 13,251
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Man Honest Trailers just nailed this movie. Lmao

kguillou is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:35 PM   #631
AVEITWITHJAMON
Cloud kicks ass
 
AVEITWITHJAMON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 35,516
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by idiot09 View Post


http://www.geekexchange.com/news/jus...her-on-cyborg/

Great read! Ray Fisher is the man!
Really good read! Ray was one of the few bright spots of JL for mean, but I like him even more after this.

__________________
2018 movie ratings out of 10:

1)Avengers: Infinity War-9.5(2)A Quiet Place-9(3)Black Panther-9(4)Deadpool 2-9(5)The Shape of Water-8.5(6)Ready Player One-8(7)Solo: A Star Wars Story-8(8)Jurassic World- Fallen Kingdom-7.5(9)Tomb Raider-7(10)Pacific Rim Uprising-7
AVEITWITHJAMON is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:59 PM   #632
HellYeah
Extortionist
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Hell...occasionally.
Posts: 201
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by idiot09 View Post


http://www.geekexchange.com/news/jus...her-on-cyborg/

Great read! Ray Fisher is the man!
I know we've scored with Ray Fisher. Now bring on the Cyborg movie!!

HellYeah is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 06:48 PM   #633
Reel-Man
Side-Kick
 
Reel-Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,299
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/sta...763392/photo/1


Reel-Man is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:02 PM   #634
Tra-El
Side-Kick
 
Tra-El's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Trying to find out where I hang my cape? YOU WON'T
Posts: 8,935
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by idiot09 View Post


http://www.geekexchange.com/news/jus...her-on-cyborg/

Great read! Ray Fisher is the man!
Fantastic.

__________________
DCEU THEATER COUNT:
Man of Steel: 6
Batman V Superman: 4
Suicide Squad : 2
Wonder Woman: 3
Justice League: 2
Aquaman
Shazam!
Wonder Woman: 1984
Tra-El is offline  
Old 02-20-2018, 08:49 PM   #635
MydnightPhoenix
Lois Lane --> Leia Lane
 
MydnightPhoenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States of Obama
Posts: 4,514
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by idiot09 View Post


http://www.geekexchange.com/news/jus...her-on-cyborg/

Great read! Ray Fisher is the man!
He really got the movie and was paying attention. I feel he wasn't just faking it because of his job.

__________________

Lois Lane
Jessica Chastain, Natalie Dormer, Scarlett Johansson


MydnightPhoenix is offline  
Old 02-21-2018, 05:29 AM   #636
Consona
^^^!NOT MY NICKNAME!^^^
 
Consona's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,776
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Ray is the best. A great human being, smart, empathetic, humble, and a great actor.

Consona is offline  
Old 02-21-2018, 02:58 PM   #637
DerekLake
Build a better world
 
DerekLake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 877
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by MydnightPhoenix View Post
He really got the movie and was paying attention. I feel he wasn't just faking it because of his job.
I have to say, just because of the insinuation that those of us who still disagree weren’t paying attention — My issues with BvS weren’t that Snyder tried to tell a story about a conflicted Good Samaritan Superman and two rich guys who let their fear of someone else’s power turn them cruel. First of all, there’s more to the actual story than that, and second, that’s not a complete picture of what Snyder was doing with each character. It’s that other stuff that is the problem.

Since this is a JL thread, I’ll narrow my points and try to keep them relevant to this film.

Although I think the Clark vs Batman plot would have been a better focus for the film, I did not take issue with Bruce’s arc or Superman’s arc. A Bruce who has been freshly traumatized by the events of MOS and angry at Superman was an interesting, new take on Batman, and a stellar way to introduce him into this universe. Likewise, a Superman struggling in a politicized, complex world was also an interesting and fresh take on him.

My issue is in the way Snyder chose to characterize them, and the way in which he chose to “resolve” the plot.

First, Bruce’s excessive, wanton violence (particularly in the chase) went a step too far, and without commentary — Alfred addresses the branding and its consequences but never the fact that Bruce kills directly. Although I suppose it fit with Bruce’s mental state, it was too far out of character and let to the overcorrection we see in JL (more on that later).

Second, Superman’s actions (or lack thereof) here went far beyond being out of character, but actually amounted to a massive disservice of the character. Rather than supporting the idea that Superman is a guy who isn’t allowed to do the right thing, it actually says the opposite. One, the film opens with another controversial act by Superman, which leads to a crisis of his own making. His intervention isn’t the issue, but rather the fact that he takes out the bad guy and leaves without even actually getting her to safety or considering the villagers who are in clear distress. More importantly, when discussing it later, he shows no concern whatsoever for the villagers or for the charges against him, telling Lois that he really only cares about her. That indifference is the problem, and undercuts any notions that this Superman really cares about doing the right thing. At the same time, when confronted with false charges and doubts about what he is doing in the world, he does nothing to try to clear his name or to sell his case. Instead he distracts himself with a halfhearted investigation of Batman. This relative inaction only serves to support the idea of his indifference, which is also supported by his decision to withdraw from the world despite knowing that someone bombed the Capitol building, killing many. All this inaction paints Superman as someone who doesn’t care about justice, but only about the relatively easy work of rescuing people from fires and floods. But Superman is a character who is all about truth and justice, and who cares about all suffering. This is quite important for the ways in which JL tries (poorly) to recharacterize Superman. Superman could have certainly gone through the arc Ray describes while being more concerned and taking action to try to address the issues going on around him in these situations.

Third, by revealing Lex Luthor as the mastermind framing both characters (even so much as fabricating the idea that Batman’s branding functions as a death sentence), and by using “Martha” as a resolution, the third act undercuts the very complexity of extralegal “heroism” it was seemingly presenting, while also not actually resolving the core issues each character had with the other. And this only sets up JL to take Batman in the complete opposite direction and to underserve Superman’s return.

Batman’s extreme portrayal in BvS, and they way Snyder has his arc conclude in the film, completely ruled out any future exploration of Batman as someone who is wary of unchecked superhuman power, but supportive of that power when held accountable. Instead we get a Batman who is not only careless with his identity, but careless in his use of powers beyond his control and comprehension. That is uncharacteristic, and I think contributed to a poorer characterization in JL.

At the same time, because Superman didn’t receive a balanced characterization in BvS, JL has to strain to try to make Superman’s absence about more than simply losing the world’s alien missile defense system, which leads to a flawed intro scene and hamfisted dialogue and actions meant to demonstrate that Superman in fact does care about both justice and helping people in distress.

Perhaps most importantly, the way in which Snyder and Terrio told the BvS story leaves Superman, Batman and the entire Justice League on a much poorer intellectual/philosophical/ethical foundation than in MOS and (the beginning of) BvS.

So as much as I respect Ray’s appreciation for BvS, I think his appraisal ignores a lot of what goes on in the film.

__________________
You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.
DerekLake is offline  
Old 02-21-2018, 03:05 PM   #638
Limonade
Side-Kick
 
Limonade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,597
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

"It one where you have you do have to fill certain blanks for yourself."

It's probably the best explanation of BvS, I've heard.

You don't get this superhero movie? Well fill in the blanks with your best explanation. Go nuts! Use Shakespeare! Use anything! I don't have the time or concern to go any further telling this story.

Limonade is offline  
Old 02-21-2018, 03:40 PM   #639
SkullDevil
The White Portuguese
 
SkullDevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Upside Down
Posts: 9,167
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -




__________________
You will be a curse upon Gotham. Children will wake from sleep screaming at the thought of you. Your legacy will be death and madness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tra-El View Post
DC Fans: "We need warriors.."

*SkullDevil raises his hand and fights for truth, justice and the PM way.*
SkullDevil is offline  
Old 02-21-2018, 06:53 PM   #640
kguillou
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 13,251
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekLake View Post
I have to say, just because of the insinuation that those of us who still disagree weren’t paying attention — My issues with BvS weren’t that Snyder tried to tell a story about a conflicted Good Samaritan Superman and two rich guys who let their fear of someone else’s power turn them cruel. First of all, there’s more to the actual story than that, and second, that’s not a complete picture of what Snyder was doing with each character. It’s that other stuff that is the problem.

Since this is a JL thread, I’ll narrow my points and try to keep them relevant to this film.

Although I think the Clark vs Batman plot would have been a better focus for the film, I did not take issue with Bruce’s arc or Superman’s arc. A Bruce who has been freshly traumatized by the events of MOS and angry at Superman was an interesting, new take on Batman, and a stellar way to introduce him into this universe. Likewise, a Superman struggling in a politicized, complex world was also an interesting and fresh take on him.

My issue is in the way Snyder chose to characterize them, and the way in which he chose to “resolve” the plot.

First, Bruce’s excessive, wanton violence (particularly in the chase) went a step too far, and without commentary — Alfred addresses the branding and its consequences but never the fact that Bruce kills directly. Although I suppose it fit with Bruce’s mental state, it was too far out of character and let to the overcorrection we see in JL (more on that later).

Second, Superman’s actions (or lack thereof) here went far beyond being out of character, but actually amounted to a massive disservice of the character. Rather than supporting the idea that Superman is a guy who isn’t allowed to do the right thing, it actually says the opposite. One, the film opens with another controversial act by Superman, which leads to a crisis of his own making. His intervention isn’t the issue, but rather the fact that he takes out the bad guy and leaves without even actually getting her to safety or considering the villagers who are in clear distress. More importantly, when discussing it later, he shows no concern whatsoever for the villagers or for the charges against him, telling Lois that he really only cares about her. That indifference is the problem, and undercuts any notions that this Superman really cares about doing the right thing. At the same time, when confronted with false charges and doubts about what he is doing in the world, he does nothing to try to clear his name or to sell his case. Instead he distracts himself with a halfhearted investigation of Batman. This relative inaction only serves to support the idea of his indifference, which is also supported by his decision to withdraw from the world despite knowing that someone bombed the Capitol building, killing many. All this inaction paints Superman as someone who doesn’t care about justice, but only about the relatively easy work of rescuing people from fires and floods. But Superman is a character who is all about truth and justice, and who cares about all suffering. This is quite important for the ways in which JL tries (poorly) to recharacterize Superman. Superman could have certainly gone through the arc Ray describes while being more concerned and taking action to try to address the issues going on around him in these situations.

Third, by revealing Lex Luthor as the mastermind framing both characters (even so much as fabricating the idea that Batman’s branding functions as a death sentence), and by using “Martha” as a resolution, the third act undercuts the very complexity of extralegal “heroism” it was seemingly presenting, while also not actually resolving the core issues each character had with the other. And this only sets up JL to take Batman in the complete opposite direction and to underserve Superman’s return.

Batman’s extreme portrayal in BvS, and they way Snyder has his arc conclude in the film, completely ruled out any future exploration of Batman as someone who is wary of unchecked superhuman power, but supportive of that power when held accountable. Instead we get a Batman who is not only careless with his identity, but careless in his use of powers beyond his control and comprehension. That is uncharacteristic, and I think contributed to a poorer characterization in JL.

At the same time, because Superman didn’t receive a balanced characterization in BvS, JL has to strain to try to make Superman’s absence about more than simply losing the world’s alien missile defense system, which leads to a flawed intro scene and hamfisted dialogue and actions meant to demonstrate that Superman in fact does care about both justice and helping people in distress.

Perhaps most importantly, the way in which Snyder and Terrio told the BvS story leaves Superman, Batman and the entire Justice League on a much poorer intellectual/philosophical/ethical foundation than in MOS and (the beginning of) BvS.

So as much as I respect Ray’s appreciation for BvS, I think his appraisal ignores a lot of what goes on in the film.
Thats an incredibly fair critique of BvS and I even agree on some levels. No doubt about it, Batman and Superman's fight should have had a stronger foundation to it. I liked Lex being the string puller between the two, like Zemo was between Cap and Iron man, but we didn't have that same "ok, enough's enough! This guy's going down!" moment between the two that sparked their brawl.

I think we're supposed to infer that Superman wrecking the Batmobile and then threatening Batman to end his vigilante ways was the moment Batman decided this alien needed to die. But that really wasnt a strong enough reason. Perhaps if Lex had actually framed Superman and made it seemed like he intentionally killed innocent people, I could see that being the moment Batman decided Superman needed to go. But even after the Capital bombing, Superman is exonnerated from having been the culprit immediately after.

I think Snyder and Terrio struggled to find a legitimate reason for the two to smack each other around. There was a lot of great build up (especially in the UE) to the growing tensions between the two but they didnt quite stick the landing on THAT moment where the two needed to come to blows.

__________________
2018 TOP FILMS SO FAR

1) AVENGERS: Infinity War 9/10 2) The BLACK PANTHER 9/10 3) Mission Impossible: Fallout 8.5/10 4) Pacific Rim: Uprising 5/10 :( 5) Ready Player One 8/10
kguillou is offline  
Old 02-21-2018, 07:00 PM   #641
misslane38
Side-Kick
 
misslane38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by kguillou View Post
Thats an incredibly fair critique of BvS and I even agree on some levels. No doubt about it, Batman and Superman's fight should have had a stronger foundation to it. I liked Lex being the string puller between the two, like Zemo was between Cap and Iron man, but we didn't have that same "ok, enough's enough! This guy's going down!" moment between the two that sparked their brawl.

I think we're supposed to infer that Superman wrecking the Batmobile and then threatening Batman to end his vigilante ways was the moment Batman decided this alien needed to die. But that really wasnt a strong enough reason. Perhaps if Lex had actually framed Superman and made it seemed like he intentionally killed innocent people, I could see that being the moment Batman decided Superman needed to go. But even after the Capital bombing, Superman is exonnerated from having been the culprit immediately after.

I think Snyder and Terrio struggled to find a legitimate reason for the two to smack each other around. There was a lot of great build up (especially in the UE) to the growing tensions between the two but they didnt quite stick the landing on THAT moment where the two needed to come to blows.
It was the Capitol bombing combined with the Knightmare/Flash warning. He knows Superman isn't the culprit TODAY, but he worries about him not only being a lightning rod for trouble (like Black Zero and like the Capitol) or causing trouble himself TOMORROW (like the Knightmare). Superman disrupts Bruce's sense of order in the world -- a world that, to him and his PTSD mind, no longer makes sense -- so he has to force it to by killing Superman. It's his way of regaining control.

Also, there is NEVER a legitimate reason for Superman and Batman to fight. A fist fight won't change ideologies. Batman has to be irrational and Superman has to be blackmailed (even then, his first instinct is diplomacy followed by self-defense rather than attack), because no rational and heroic versions of Superman and Batman would engage in a fight.


Last edited by misslane38; 02-21-2018 at 07:15 PM.
misslane38 is offline  
Old 02-21-2018, 07:36 PM   #642
_Superman_
Man Of Steel
 
_Superman_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Northern VA.
Posts: 1,723
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
It was the Capitol bombing combined with the Knightmare/Flash warning. He knows Superman isn't the culprit TODAY, but he worries about him not only being a lightning rod for trouble (like Black Zero and like the Capitol) or causing trouble himself TOMORROW (like the Knightmare). Superman disrupts Bruce's sense of order in the world -- a world that, to him and his PTSD mind, no longer makes sense -- so he has to force it to by killing Superman. It's his way of regaining control.

Also, there is NEVER a legitimate reason for Superman and Batman to fight. A fist fight won't change ideologies. Batman has to be irrational and Superman has to be blackmailed (even then, his first instinct is diplomacy followed by self-defense rather than attack), because no rational and heroic versions of Superman and Batman would engage in a fight.
That's correct on what pushed Batman to fight Superman but what pushed Superman over was that time was running out and it seems like he was remembering or recalling how the lady said that the only thing Batman understands is a fist. So after talking didn't work he figured he try it his (Batman's) way.

_Superman_ is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:42 AM   #643
misslane38
Side-Kick
 
misslane38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Superman_ View Post
That's correct on what pushed Batman to fight Superman but what pushed Superman over was that time was running out and it seems like he was remembering or recalling how the lady said that the only thing Batman understands is a fist. So after talking didn't work he figured he try it his (Batman's) way.
The first push, I'll give you. However, it was just meant to signal to Batman that fighting was futile. After that, after the kryptonite, he was trying not to die.

misslane38 is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:01 AM   #644
Aurakles
Side-Kick
 
Aurakles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 575
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

BVS gets really unfairly treated when it comes to Batman killing people in the Batmoblie.
In Batman 89 he blows up a factory full of Joker goons, in Returns he deliberately sets someone on fire, and it's hard to believe none of the Jokers goons are killed in The Dark Knight (the guy in garbage truck for example).
It's something almost every version of Batman has done, but only Batfleck seems to get flack for it.

Aurakles is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:18 AM   #645
markjoedelonge
Cap of Gotham
 
markjoedelonge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 6,958
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurakles View Post
BVS gets really unfairly treated when it comes to Batman killing people in the Batmoblie.
In Batman 89 he blows up a factory full of Joker goons, in Returns he deliberately sets someone on fire, and it's hard to believe none of the Jokers goons are killed in The Dark Knight (the guy in garbage truck for example).
It's something almost every version of Batman has done, but only Batfleck seems to get flack for it.
I agree. Personally, I feel that it's because the GA got very used to Nolan's Batman's "no kill code". So when Batfleck came after this, it must have seemed for the GA like it swung from one extreme to the other.

__________________
My top 5 CBMs: 1) Avengers: Infinity War 2) Logan 3) The Dark Knight 4) Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice 5) Captain America: The Winter Soldier

DCEU ratings: MOS (8/10) | BvS (9/10) | SS (5/10) | WW (9.5/10) | JL (7/10)
markjoedelonge is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:40 AM   #646
Micromind
New World New Rules
 
Micromind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Multiverse
Posts: 17,138
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
Also, there is NEVER a legitimate reason for Superman and Batman to fight. A fist fight won't change ideologies. Batman has to be irrational and Superman has to be blackmailed (even then, his first instinct is diplomacy followed by self-defense rather than attack), because no rational and heroic versions of Superman and Batman would engage in a fight.
^ This.

Also, I think Darksied was influencing Bruce's mind in subtle ways, hence the 'Knightmare' scene, I hoped that JL movie would throw some light on this but it didn't.

__________________


Last edited by Micromind; 02-22-2018 at 06:30 AM.
Micromind is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:30 AM   #647
Aurakles
Side-Kick
 
Aurakles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 575
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

I really prefer this to the generic "there's a misunderstanding when they first meet", which requires them to be shoot first ask questions later types.
They both have to be manipulated and broken down, taken to their lowest point before they'll fight each other.

Aurakles is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:37 AM   #648
misslane38
Side-Kick
 
misslane38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekLake View Post
I have to say, just because of the insinuation that those of us who still disagree weren’t paying attention — My issues with BvS weren’t that Snyder tried to tell a story about a conflicted Good Samaritan Superman and two rich guys who let their fear of someone else’s power turn them cruel. First of all, there’s more to the actual story than that, and second, that’s not a complete picture of what Snyder was doing with each character. It’s that other stuff that is the problem.

Since this is a JL thread, I’ll narrow my points and try to keep them relevant to this film.

Although I think the Clark vs Batman plot would have been a better focus for the film, I did not take issue with Bruce’s arc or Superman’s arc. A Bruce who has been freshly traumatized by the events of MOS and angry at Superman was an interesting, new take on Batman, and a stellar way to introduce him into this universe. Likewise, a Superman struggling in a politicized, complex world was also an interesting and fresh take on him.

My issue is in the way Snyder chose to characterize them, and the way in which he chose to “resolve” the plot.

First, Bruce’s excessive, wanton violence (particularly in the chase) went a step too far, and without commentary — Alfred addresses the branding and its consequences but never the fact that Bruce kills directly. Although I suppose it fit with Bruce’s mental state, it was too far out of character and let to the overcorrection we see in JL (more on that later).

Second, Superman’s actions (or lack thereof) here went far beyond being out of character, but actually amounted to a massive disservice of the character. Rather than supporting the idea that Superman is a guy who isn’t allowed to do the right thing, it actually says the opposite. One, the film opens with another controversial act by Superman, which leads to a crisis of his own making. His intervention isn’t the issue, but rather the fact that he takes out the bad guy and leaves without even actually getting her to safety or considering the villagers who are in clear distress. More importantly, when discussing it later, he shows no concern whatsoever for the villagers or for the charges against him, telling Lois that he really only cares about her. That indifference is the problem, and undercuts any notions that this Superman really cares about doing the right thing. At the same time, when confronted with false charges and doubts about what he is doing in the world, he does nothing to try to clear his name or to sell his case. Instead he distracts himself with a halfhearted investigation of Batman. This relative inaction only serves to support the idea of his indifference, which is also supported by his decision to withdraw from the world despite knowing that someone bombed the Capitol building, killing many. All this inaction paints Superman as someone who doesn’t care about justice, but only about the relatively easy work of rescuing people from fires and floods. But Superman is a character who is all about truth and justice, and who cares about all suffering. This is quite important for the ways in which JL tries (poorly) to recharacterize Superman. Superman could have certainly gone through the arc Ray describes while being more concerned and taking action to try to address the issues going on around him in these situations.

Third, by revealing Lex Luthor as the mastermind framing both characters (even so much as fabricating the idea that Batman’s branding functions as a death sentence), and by using “Martha” as a resolution, the third act undercuts the very complexity of extralegal “heroism” it was seemingly presenting, while also not actually resolving the core issues each character had with the other. And this only sets up JL to take Batman in the complete opposite direction and to underserve Superman’s return.

Batman’s extreme portrayal in BvS, and they way Snyder has his arc conclude in the film, completely ruled out any future exploration of Batman as someone who is wary of unchecked superhuman power, but supportive of that power when held accountable. Instead we get a Batman who is not only careless with his identity, but careless in his use of powers beyond his control and comprehension. That is uncharacteristic, and I think contributed to a poorer characterization in JL.

At the same time, because Superman didn’t receive a balanced characterization in BvS, JL has to strain to try to make Superman’s absence about more than simply losing the world’s alien missile defense system, which leads to a flawed intro scene and hamfisted dialogue and actions meant to demonstrate that Superman in fact does care about both justice and helping people in distress.

Perhaps most importantly, the way in which Snyder and Terrio told the BvS story leaves Superman, Batman and the entire Justice League on a much poorer intellectual/philosophical/ethical foundation than in MOS and (the beginning of) BvS.

So as much as I respect Ray’s appreciation for BvS, I think his appraisal ignores a lot of what goes on in the film.
Moving this discussion to the BvS thread where this belongs, because it's mostly BvS talk despite your best efforts to link to JL.

misslane38 is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:08 AM   #649
Tra-El
Side-Kick
 
Tra-El's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Trying to find out where I hang my cape? YOU WON'T
Posts: 8,935
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
Also, there is NEVER a legitimate reason for Superman and Batman to fight. A fist fight won't change ideologies. Batman has to be irrational and Superman has to be blackmailed (even then, his first instinct is diplomacy followed by self-defense rather than attack), because no rational and heroic versions of Superman and Batman would engage in a fight.
Absolutely. Well stated. I remember before BvS came out, an interviewer asked Henry what he thought about people saying Superman would end Batman in one second if he wanted to and Cavill replied: "If Superman is Superman, which he is....he wouldn't. There in lies your answer."

I'm tellin' yah, they should have Henry as a consultant for the Superman character moving forward and having a say with character beats and what-not. Henry not only IS Superman, he GETS Superman.

__________________
DCEU THEATER COUNT:
Man of Steel: 6
Batman V Superman: 4
Suicide Squad : 2
Wonder Woman: 3
Justice League: 2
Aquaman
Shazam!
Wonder Woman: 1984
Tra-El is offline  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:38 AM   #650
idiot09
Kicks side
 
idiot09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Somewhere.
Posts: 12,818
Default Re: The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - -

So I edited the Superman/Flash scene, I wanted to change the color grading to see how it looked. Also added some music I liked.

I think it looks far better.

Movie vs my edit :



Here's the video :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6f4x0l

idiot09 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of Mandatory Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2018 All Rights Reserved.