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Old 08-10-2018, 11:37 PM   #951
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - -

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Originally Posted by Aurakles View Post
I think it's more of a Superman movie, it's a film that examines Superman from various points of view; Batman, Lois, Luthor and even Clarks view of himself. All the major characters have arcs about how Superman has affected their lives, and what they think his role in the world is.

BVS uses Batman as an example of how Superman can inspire people to better themselves.
By going on a murder spree in a downtown metropolis (sorry) and ignoring all reason, advice, or even the origin of suspiciously menacing letters in your mail box, so as to make your very own glowy Spear of Longinus to impale another man with while saying, "Nah, you're a wimp, brah."

Yeah, very inspirational.

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Old 08-11-2018, 04:13 AM   #952
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Batman is the one who gets inspired.

Bruce is at his lowest point; he's angry, scared and doing terrible things. Then Superman shows him that him he can be do better, that he can rise from the darkness into the light once more.

I think it's inspiring to see someone that far gone turn over a new leaf and dedicate themselves to making amends. It tells us that no matter what mistakes we've made in our own lives we are never a lost cause, that it's never too late to try to make yourself a better person.

"I failed him in life. I won't fail him in death."

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Old 08-12-2018, 04:18 AM   #953
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Superman doesn't show him that any more than any other normal person does. Batman's actions and his turn aren't inspirational, because they aren't dealt with I think. Batman did this stuff, he essentially had a mental breakdown, that doesn't get solved because someone dies. It calls his character and stability into question. That's never addressed and is swept away because the movie wants to pretend like things are all better and not deal with the issue to me.

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Old 08-12-2018, 12:35 PM   #954
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - -

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
By going on a murder spree in a downtown metropolis (sorry) and ignoring all reason, advice, or even the origin of suspiciously menacing letters in your mail box, so as to make your very own glowy Spear of Longinus to impale another man with while saying, "Nah, you're a wimp, brah."

Yeah, very inspirational.
No one said that Batman during his low point, before his epiphany, was inspirational. The discussion is about how the story of Bruce's redemption, and in particular the character of Superman, was inspirational. Also, let's get the facts straight. Batman doesn't go on a murder spree in Metropolis. He goes there to acquire the kryptonite being smuggled in at the docks, and he starts to get aggressive to both retrieve the kryptonite and defend himself against their attacks. It's not even made explicit how injured those he goes after are or even if any are actually dead.

The letters Bruce received that were menacing were presented as if they came from Wallace Keefe himself. They said, "You let your family die" with, if I'm not mistaken, un-cashed Wayne Enterprises' checks enclosed. Sure Bruce could have been paranoid and speculated/investigated them as being inauthentic bait, but on the face of it the origin of them would have seemed pretty clear, and the effect would be the same regardless. Bruce feels powerless and guilty about what happened with his employees in Metropolis during the Superman/Zod fight, so that pre-existing turmoil thrown in his face in tandem with Keefe and the entire Capitol being blown up at Superman's hearing, combine to push his buttons.

Lastly, Batman's comments to Superman during their fight are a lot more nuanced than name-calling (wimp). He spends the time verbally and physically attacking Superman for his lack of humanity by forcing him to feel as a human. He makes him fear. He makes him hurt. He does this because he himself has been hurt and has been suffering from PTSD. As such, triggers are a very real thing he has to deal with. That's what "Save Martha" and "You're letting him kill Martha" served as. First, the mention of his mother's name enrages Batman. However, when Lois arrives to provide a human presence -- one that reminds him of his own parents in their last moments -- and clarification that Martha is Superman's mother who needs saving, Batman relents. He realized in that moment that he had become the villain of his childhood trauma and of his nightmares.

Superman's own humanity, humanity that he dismissed as nonexistent before, reminds Batman of his own humanity and heroism, and he makes a promise to Superman to save his mother: his first act of penance. Then, after Superman dies and the world's reaction, he regains faith in himself and the people of Earth, reversing his previous "What falls is fallen" belief to "Men are still good...We betray one another, but we can do better." He starts by not branding Luthor in prison. He continues in JL -- a film where he discusses his regret and remorse and where people like Jim Gordon comment on his improvement -- by encouraging other heroes as heroes and helping them as people (Martha's house, Barry's job). Like Saul of Tarsus who had persecuted Christians, but had an epiphany and began expanding the Christian church as Paul, Bruce is transformed. And it is that change, and the source of that change, that is inspirational.

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Superman doesn't show him that any more than any other normal person does. Batman's actions and his turn aren't inspirational, because they aren't dealt with I think. Batman did this stuff, he essentially had a mental breakdown, that doesn't get solved because someone dies. It calls his character and stability into question. That's never addressed and is swept away because the movie wants to pretend like things are all better and not deal with the issue to me.
No one is saying it was solved, just that it was a wake up call. After that moment, Batman is in recovery, which is a process. His efforts in JL are part of that process.

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Old 08-13-2018, 03:48 PM   #955
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No one is saying it was solved, just that it was a wake up call. After that moment, Batman is in recovery, which is a process. His efforts in JL are part of that process.
I think the movie treats it that way and doesn't deal with the situation.

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Old 08-13-2018, 03:56 PM   #956
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I think the movie treats it that way and doesn't deal with the situation.
The film literally has Bruce use the word "rebuild" to describe how fallen men who have betrayed each other must do to still be good. When was the last time something broken was rebuilt in an instant?

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Old 08-13-2018, 05:08 PM   #957
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The film literally has Bruce use the word "rebuild" to describe how fallen men who have betrayed each other must do to still be good. When was the last time something broken was rebuilt in an instant?
He needs legit psychological help, which the movie doesn't address and does treat like he can do it like that to me. His state of mind I think should've been addressed and not dealt with half-hazardly. Ptsd-ing him into a realization doesn't fix anything and the movie doesn't treat him like he needs psychological help. That's why the Martha thing is cheap to me and doesn't actually address the issues Bruce has.

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Old 08-14-2018, 07:32 AM   #958
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He needs legit psychological help, which the movie doesn't address and does treat like he can do it like that to me. His state of mind I think should've been addressed and not dealt with half-hazardly. Ptsd-ing him into a realization doesn't fix anything and the movie doesn't treat him like he needs psychological help. That's why the Martha thing is cheap to me and doesn't actually address the issues Bruce has.
Batman has always needed legit psychological help, and rarely seeks it out. He generally hits rock bottom and works through his issues in his own, usually via something to do with his mission.

The knock on the movie’s portrayal of his issues is that he doesn’t actually seek it out?

His resolution is no cheaper than most other films and dovetails into Justice League, where he pursues his mission with renewed purpose while recognizing its likely finite nature.

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Old 08-14-2018, 07:46 AM   #959
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It's common in storytelling, particularly superhero stories, to have characters overcome emotional problems through powerful dramatic moments.
It's rooted in the fact that these are characters are metaphors, their struggles, defeats and triumphs exist to be symbolic rather than literal.

And it's not as if Bruce is completely healed in the Martha scene, that's just the breakthrough moment when he began his path to recovery. At Clarks funeral he is focused on the work that lies ahead, for himself and others.

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Old 08-14-2018, 07:57 AM   #960
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Batman has always needed legit psychological help, and rarely seeks it out. He generally hits rock bottom and works through his issues in his own, usually via something to do with his mission.

The knock on the movie’s portrayal of his issues is that he doesn’t actually seek it out?

His resolution is no cheaper than most other films and dovetails into Justice League, where he pursues his mission with renewed purpose while recognizing its likely finite nature.
I think this is really one of my main issues with these movies. I think they want to be so realistic in how these things are. Yes, Batman is broken by the structures of human psyche as I understand them in most versions. But, I think this movie wants to be so harsh with the idea of realism in Batman. Yes, I do think that being Batman where he's driven by this ptsd of his parents death and vengeance and obsession with this bat symbol, with all this loss and pain that he just kept being involved in would be pretty broken.

But, I think no other version has wanted to be so aggressive with that idea in adaption. Even Burton's was wrapped up in a weird aesthetic where it wasn't in a real world. TDKT more or less wanted to depict him as more someone in an unhealthy angry place, addicted and things like that, where he wasn't so much out of his gourd I think.

I appreciate the idea that being so destructive so long messes with him, but, I think the movie doesn't really want to deal with it and likes the idea of this and then wants to brush it away fast. Like killing Zod. Like the public hating Superman. I think the reason to make Superman kill Zod so he will have no kill rule doesn't work, but the movie itself doesn't care to deal with it on Superman's character. Time jump, no more crying Superman, he's smiling now. Batman's lost himself completely. Oh, he sees Superman as a person and now thinks he's become his parents killer, also Superman dies and Batman feels guilty. That's it for that it seems. People hate Superman, he's dead, there's lots of love for Superman now. The movie doesn't deal with it to me. It brushes it away. To me it's the idea over execution.

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Old 08-14-2018, 12:21 PM   #961
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I appreciate the idea that being so destructive so long messes with him, but, I think the movie doesn't really want to deal with it and likes the idea of this and then wants to brush it away fast. Like killing Zod. Like the public hating Superman. I think the reason to make Superman kill Zod so he will have no kill rule doesn't work, but the movie itself doesn't care to deal with it on Superman's character. Time jump, no more crying Superman, he's smiling now.
Killing Zod was upsetting in the moment it happened, because it was a shame it had to end that way, but isn't something that weighs on Superman. It's more something he learns from rather than something he regrets or is tormented by. The way it factors into the no kill rule is that being a hero who has to make life and death decisions is no longer an abstraction for Superman. He knows that he will be put in positions where he may have no choice to kill, and that he has it in him to do it. Zod teaches him ways to avoid putting himself in that position in the future by keeping fights away from populated areas (so innocents can't be used as bait) and by imagining more alternatives. We see this lessons in action in BvS. Superman keeps the fight with Doomsday away from the city, and he seeks a third way with Bruce instead of killing him, as Lex wanted, just to save the innocent bait, his mother.

The public never hated Superman in BvS. Some did, but for a good chunk of the movie it's made clear that he has plenty of fans and supporters, and there are also just people in the middle -- people like Finch -- who has no antipathy toward Superman, just concerns. More importantly, much of the hate that developed did so as a result of Luthor's meddling. As soon as his villainy was exposed to the world in articles and in court, Superman's name was cleared both for Nairomi and for the Capitol bombing. The fact that he also sacrificed his life for them, even as they doubted him, just deepened their appreciation.

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Batman's lost himself completely. Oh, he sees Superman as a person and now thinks he's become his parents killer, also Superman dies and Batman feels guilty. That's it for that it seems. People hate Superman, he's dead, there's lots of love for Superman now. The movie doesn't deal with it to me. It brushes it away. To me it's the idea over execution.
Bruce explains the basis of his troubles throughout BvS, and since the events of the denouement address those specific issues, it's clear how he has been affected. Earlier, Bruce confesses to Alfred that he's lost faith that there are good people in this world. He's spent decades in Gotham fruitlessly pulling up weeds and watching bad guys fail at reform (making worthless promises of goodness). He also pursues Superman, even to death, because he blamed him for the ills befalling humanity and he feared his corruption in the future. Yet, when he realized it was humans -- like Lex and himself -- that had failed Superman, and he saw the humanity in Superman (and Superman's ability to forgive and take a chance on both him and the world despite past troubles), he decided to follow Superman's example and have faith in both himself and others.

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Old 08-14-2018, 12:55 PM   #962
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Batman is the one who gets inspired.

Bruce is at his lowest point; he's angry, scared and doing terrible things. Then Superman shows him that him he can be do better, that he can rise from the darkness into the light once more.

I think it's inspiring to see someone that far gone turn over a new leaf and dedicate themselves to making amends. It tells us that no matter what mistakes we've made in our own lives we are never a lost cause, that it's never too late to try to make yourself a better person.

"I failed him in life. I won't fail him in death."
That was the intention. But the narrative doesnt execute that idea in a believable way.

One minute Batman is about to impale this untrustworthy God like alien... the next minute they are best buds. All because Batman realises Superman has a mother?

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Old 08-14-2018, 01:04 PM   #963
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That was the intention. But the narrative doesnt execute that idea in a believable way.

One minute Batman is about to impale this untrustworthy God like alien... the next minute they are best buds. All because Batman realises Superman has a mother?
They are not presented as best buds, and no, it's obviously not just because Superman has a mother. Way to exaggerate and oversimplify! Of course it lacks believability if you remove all of the nuance to create a strawman.

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Old 08-14-2018, 11:52 PM   #964
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Killing Zod was upsetting in the moment it happened, because it was a shame it had to end that way, but isn't something that weighs on Superman. It's more something he learns from rather than something he regrets or is tormented by. The way it factors into the no kill rule is that being a hero who has to make life and death decisions is no longer an abstraction for Superman. He knows that he will be put in positions where he may have no choice to kill, and that he has it in him to do it. Zod teaches him ways to avoid putting himself in that position in the future by keeping fights away from populated areas (so innocents can't be used as bait) and by imagining more alternatives. We see this lessons in action in BvS. Superman keeps the fight with Doomsday away from the city, and he seeks a third way with Bruce instead of killing him, as Lex wanted, just to save the innocent bait, his mother.
I think that's not a developed idea. Killing Zod doesn't have anything to do with that to me. More the destruction of metropolis, but I don't think that's a developed idea either.
Quote:
The public never hated Superman in BvS. Some did, but for a good chunk of the movie it's made clear that he has plenty of fans and supporters, and there are also just people in the middle -- people like Finch -- who has no antipathy toward Superman, just concerns. More importantly, much of the hate that developed did so as a result of Luthor's meddling. As soon as his villainy was exposed to the world in articles and in court, Superman's name was cleared both for Nairomi and for the Capitol bombing. The fact that he also sacrificed his life for them, even as they doubted him, just deepened their appreciation.
I don't think the movie does make that clear. We see some support. But not what I'd call plenty. The film wants to focus on the other part. But, if a lot of people aren't mistrusting of Superman, I don't think that's realistic. And I don't think the Nairomi thing would realistically cause such an upheaval against Superman from civilians, even if I think it would be caused by Lex's meddling. If they disliked him before, I see no reason why they wouldn't continue to feel the same.
Quote:
Bruce explains the basis of his troubles throughout BvS, and since the events of the denouement address those specific issues, it's clear how he has been affected. Earlier, Bruce confesses to Alfred that he's lost faith that there are good people in this world. He's spent decades in Gotham fruitlessly pulling up weeds and watching bad guys fail at reform (making worthless promises of goodness). He also pursues Superman, even to death, because he blamed him for the ills befalling humanity and he feared his corruption in the future. Yet, when he realized it was humans -- like Lex and himself -- that had failed Superman, and he saw the humanity in Superman (and Superman's ability to forgive and take a chance on both him and the world despite past troubles), he decided to follow Superman's example and have faith in both himself and others.
They didn't fail Superman. Superman can't be failed because he's not someone who should be given that kind of devotion. He's just a man. Superman's no more different than Lex or Bruce, capable of fault and sin all the same. Having faith in himself and others doesn't mean anything to Bruce's psychosis. Having faith in people isn't a treatment for his instability. But in the universe of the movie, much like our own, there must be people who who'd died, helping people, as firefighters or cops etc. Superman's not different from them.


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Old 08-14-2018, 11:59 PM   #965
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They are not presented as best buds, and no, it's obviously not just because Superman has a mother. Way to exaggerate and oversimplify! Of course it lacks believability if you remove all of the nuance to create a strawman.
That's basically the reason. Yes, he sees Superman as a person and he sees himself as the killer of his parents. But that happens because him and Clark's mom have the same name. I think that calls Bruce's mental stability into question and it's why I think the movie doesn't deal with it.

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Old 08-15-2018, 05:30 AM   #966
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People are emotional creatures, sometimes what we respond to isn't something logical, but something that tugs on our hearts.

The death of his parents has massive emotional power over Bruce, it's why at first the mention of Martha enrages him. It's when he looks at his actions in comparison to the night his parents were killed that he realises what he has become.

Alfred had tried making logical arguments against Bruce's actions, but because he was driven by intense emotion, arguments appealing to reason fell on deaf ears.

An emotional connection can be far more powerful than logical arguments.

The Martha moment reminds me of the West Wing episode Noel, where Josh feels a bit of connection to a pilot because they have the same birthday. Logically it means nothing, but people aren't vulcans and things like that often have an effect on our thinking.

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