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View Poll Results: Where does most TDK's negative feedback come from?
People who hate Batman. 8 4.55%
People who hate Heath Ledger. 5 2.84%
Purists. 10 5.68%
Burton fans. 20 11.36%
Kids. 4 2.27%
Eyecandy seekers. 1 0.57%
unsophisticatists. 2 1.14%
Hollywood elitists. 6 3.41%
People who think realism is boring. 13 7.39%
People who think it’s conservative. (Controversial) 4 2.27%
People who think all superhero movies should follow the same format. 19 10.80%
It makes people feel special. 40 22.73%
Other. 44 25.00%
Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-05-2011, 03:19 AM   #376
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

But before those deaths Joker already announced that people will die.

There's also explanation on the bullet thing which of course is explained by someone and since I'm no gun expert I think it's best that I don't discuss it.


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Old 04-05-2011, 05:17 AM   #377
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Thumbs up Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by DarKJediKnight View Post
Why do Gordon and Batman choose to pin Two-Face's crimes on Batman?

A number of reasons:

1) When Dent had Gordon's family at the place where Rachel died, the police had a border already set up. By this time, Joker was in custody. Had they blamed Joker, everyone would have known they were lying. That would prompt an investigation into the other deaths. Batman and Gordon wanted to preserve Dent's image as the "White Knight," giving the citizens of Gotham hope.

2) Batman wouldn't want to falsely pin crimes on even someone like the Joker.


3) After the events of The Dark Knight, Batman can no longer allow himself to be affiliated with Gotham Police without risking more deaths. By "rebranding" himself, he not only severs all ties to authority, he is also "becoming the villain." As Dent is allowed to die a hero, Batman must accept the opposite responsibility. (i.e.- Dent's phrase, "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.")

4) Harvey Dent is a leading prosecutor. If word was to get out that he's a crazy killer, all the crime bosses in prison would have sufficient grounds for appeal. All the convictions of all the cases Dent has ever tried could be overturned, and all the crime bosses would be back on the street. The movie mentions this a few times. In their first meeting, the mayor cautioned Dent that he had better watch himself, because all they need is a little dirt on him and all the cases would crumble. During the scene where Dent threatens the fake honor guard who was actually a paranoid schizophrenic, Batman warns Dent that killing him would put all the cases in jeopardy. Batman reiterates this to Gordon at the end.

5) During their final confrontation, the Joker explains that Batman's weakness is his adherence to rules. Why abide by a code when your enemies obviously don't? Pinning Two-Face's crimes on Batman is sending a message to the public, and it's not a terribly positive one. This also plays into his psychological dilemma evidenced by the line "I've seen what I have to become to stop men like him." (Another possible interpretation in this vein is referenced earlier in the film. The point is made that the criminals are not scared of Batman because they know he won't kill, making him less effective. By pinning Two-Faces crimes on Batman, it changes that perception, striking even more fear into the criminal mind.)

6) Giving Batman a villainous public image should prevent any further copycat batmen harming themselves and others

7) Since he began his fight on crime, Batman has, inadvertently, become the glue that holds Gotham together. Alfred tells Bruce after the Joker shows up that he can't quit, and that he would have Bruce endure because he can make the choices no one else can make. The decision to take the fall for Harvey was the only way to keep the crime bosses/criminals from being released from jail and to keep the city inspired. The personification of Batman is the only image/symbol strong enough for Gordon to use, which could convince the people of Gotham to believe the story that Batman, not Harvey, was responsible for those deaths. It would not have been very convincing or ethical to blame those crimes on another person/criminal. This was Bruce/Batman's way to be whatever Gotham needed him to be.
Awesome post.

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Old 04-05-2011, 05:21 AM   #378
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by DarKJediKnight View Post
But before those deaths Joker already announced that people will die.

There's also explanation on the bullet thing which of course is explained by someone and since I'm no gun expert I think it's best that I don't discuss it.
The bullet scanning thing is unexplanable. The simple fact of the matter is, you will never, ever, ever, ever get prints on the actual bullet itself.

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Old 04-05-2011, 12:16 PM   #379
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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The bullet scanning thing is unexplanable. The simple fact of the matter is, you will never, ever, ever, ever get prints on the actual bullet itself.
Unless the person loads the bullet into the clip by pressing on the bullet instead of the casing, which is far from impossible.

Suggested for further reading:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/faq#.2.1.73

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Old 04-05-2011, 01:42 PM   #380
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by DarKJediKnight View Post
4) Harvey Dent is a leading prosecutor. If word was to get out that he's a crazy killer, all the crime bosses in prison would have sufficient grounds for appeal. All the convictions of all the cases Dent has ever tried could be overturned, and all the crime bosses would be back on the street. The movie mentions this a few times. In their first meeting, the mayor cautioned Dent that he had better watch himself, because all they need is a little dirt on him and all the cases would crumble. During the scene where Dent threatens the fake honor guard who was actually a paranoid schizophrenic, Batman warns Dent that killing him would put all the cases in jeopardy. Batman reiterates this to Gordon at the end.
This is not how the justice system works. Criminals don't stay convicted solely because of how upstanding a citizen a prosecutor happens to be. They're convicted on EVIDENCE. In order for what you're saying to work for the criminals, they'd have to show that evidence had been planted, faslified or in some other way show it to be faulty. And we know Dent never did any of that so it wouldn't matter. He got'em fair and square.

However, all dent ever really had on them was the testimoney of Lau as a key witness. Well he's dead now so why didn't THAT immediately get all the criminals a get out of jail free card? We never saw Lau testify. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. But if he didn't, then all the criminals get out immediately. If he did, then that is the evidence that is keeping them there, regardless of how Dent acts.

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Old 04-05-2011, 01:46 PM   #381
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Unless the person loads the bullet into the clip by pressing on the bullet instead of the casing, which is far from impossible.

Suggested for further reading:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/faq#.2.1.73
You're presenting me with something from IMDB? That is irrelevent to the point i made?

Your skin does not come into contact with the bullet itself when loading it into the clip. It's that simple.

Maybe the very tip of the bullet, but you wouldn't be able to load the bullet into the clip if you was holding the tip of the bullet. And in the scene in The Dark Knight the thumb print is very clearly on the main body of the bullet, which would be covered by the casing.

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Old 04-05-2011, 02:11 PM   #382
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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You're presenting me with something from IMDB? That is irrelevent to the point i made?

Your skin does not come into contact with the bullet itself when loading it into the clip. It's that simple.

Maybe the very tip of the bullet, but you wouldn't be able to load the bullet into the clip if you was holding the tip of the bullet. And in the scene in The Dark Knight the thumb print is very clearly on the main body of the bullet, which would be covered by the casing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...prints.bullets

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Old 04-05-2011, 02:41 PM   #383
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Well, that's not even the same method that was used in TDK.

The way they got the fingerprint in TDK, doesn't make any sense to me. It was a computer generated re-engineering of a scan. Why Bruce even had to use tests shot, if the computer could re-engineer it from the beginning, is still something I'm confused by. Plus, I don't understand how they lifted a print with analytical data. But hey, it's a movie, it's all just a suspension of disbelief.

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Old 04-05-2011, 03:03 PM   #384
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

"You either die a hero or you see yourself become the villain."

"Letting Harvey take the fall for this is not heroic at all."

"No, but I trusted him to do the right thing...Saving my ass."

If the movie doesn't even follow through with it's own foreshadowing, that's worse than any personal opinion you might have against the decision Batman made. Stop looking at the movie as a question of moral beliefs and just look at it as a story. It's only a movie.

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Old 04-05-2011, 06:40 PM   #385
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

They knew Batman was in the interrogation room, and considering his history of serving the city it was actually more believeable the Joker was behind the murders (actually if you want to get technical, he was pulling the strings the whole time - even in regards to Dent). Moreover Batman doesn't seem to have any morals against lying, I mean he does it every day.

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Old 04-05-2011, 06:58 PM   #386
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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This is not how the justice system works. Criminals don't stay convicted solely because of how upstanding a citizen a prosecutor happens to be. They're convicted on EVIDENCE. In order for what you're saying to work for the criminals, they'd have to show that evidence had been planted, faslified or in some other way show it to be faulty. And we know Dent never did any of that so it wouldn't matter. He got'em fair and square.

However, all dent ever really had on them was the testimoney of Lau as a key witness. Well he's dead now so why didn't THAT immediately get all the criminals a get out of jail free card? We never saw Lau testify. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. But if he didn't, then all the criminals get out immediately. If he did, then that is the evidence that is keeping them there, regardless of how Dent acts.
Nolan clearly has a piss poor understanding of the Justice System, not that this is uncommon for movies. Number one, you can't have a guy in a Bat-suit extradite a person illegally from your country so you can try him in court. That's so f***ing illegal it's hard for me to watch that scene. Number two, you can't don't have a RICO trial in state courts, RICO is a Federal crime. Number three, it's so not police protocol to leave a guy like the Joker just sitting around in the station where everyone can see him. I love how the entire police station is located in the same place the jail cell is. Number four, you don't leave a mass murder uncuffed in an interrogation room, alone, with a police officer.

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Old 04-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #387
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I didn't mind Batman nabbing the guy in China so much. Batman's not on the police payroll or records. He acts independently. Everything he does is illegal. All Dent & Gordon have to do is deny having anything to do with nabbing Lau and they most certainly would be able to keep him in custody. Other than that, yeah you're right.

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Old 04-05-2011, 07:54 PM   #388
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Well, that's not even the same method that was used in TDK.

The way they got the fingerprint in TDK, doesn't make any sense to me. It was a computer generated re-engineering of a scan. Why Bruce even had to use tests shot, if the computer could re-engineer it from the beginning, is still something I'm confused by. Plus, I don't understand how they lifted a print with analytical data. But hey, it's a movie, it's all just a suspension of disbelief.
The computer can't re-engineer the scan from the beginning. That's the point of the machine gun firing part: the computer needs a pattern to follow for it to re-engineer the scan of the evidence. For a simpler explanation, let's say the bullets that Bruce tested at the Bunker is changed from State 1 to State 2, and there's a pattern created when it changes states; The bullet recovered from the crime scene is in State 2. It needs to be changed back into State 1 but first the computer has to know what pattern to follow, and for it to know what pattern to use, Bruce does the firing part to know (either of these options since it's not stated in the film): a.) what type of bullet is used or b.) how strong the bullet made impact on the brick.


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Old 04-05-2011, 08:07 PM   #389
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Nolan clearly has a piss poor understanding of the Justice System, not that this is uncommon for movies. Number one, you can't have a guy in a Bat-suit extradite a person illegally from your country so you can try him in court. That's so f***ing illegal it's hard for me to watch that scene.
This:
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Originally Posted by kedrell View Post
I didn't mind Batman nabbing the guy in China so much. Batman's not on the police payroll or records. He acts independently. Everything he does is illegal. All Dent & Gordon have to do is deny having anything to do with nabbing Lau and they most certainly would be able to keep him in custody. Other than that, yeah you're right.

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Number two, you can't don't have a RICO trial in state courts, RICO is a Federal crime.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know anything about that. I'll take your word for it.

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Number three, it's so not police protocol to leave a guy like the Joker just sitting around in the station where everyone can see him. I love how the entire police station is located in the same place the jail cell is.
Doesn't Gordon states that he doesn't want the Joker in the county jail? And I've never been to any police station (true!) but I always thought that there are jail cells within a police station.

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Number four, you don't leave a mass murder uncuffed in an interrogation room, alone, with a police officer.
But the police in this film does. Maybe they still underestimate the Joker. Maybe they are confident that the guy they left with the Joker won't be harmed by this mass murderer. Maybe this fictional police force is really that incompetent. What I'm trying to say here is in the overall story, this particular point doesn't matter. You're just nitpicking.

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:18 PM   #390
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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The computer can't re-engineer the scan from the beginning. That's the point of the machine gun firing part: the computer needs a pattern to follow for it to re-engineer the scan of the evidence. For a simpler explanation, let's say the brick that Bruce tested at the Bunker is changed from State 1 to State 2; The bullet recovered from the crime scene is in State 2. It needs to be changed back into State 1 but first the computer has to know (either of these options since it's not stated in the film): a.) what type of bullet is used or b.) how strong the bullet made impact on the brick, for it to create a pattern to change it back to State 1.
This makes no sense for many reasons. a.)Bruce would have to know the exact distance the bullet was fired, to obtain the correct velocity, and b.) since he doesn't know the correct velocity, he wouldn't be able to find out the correct shell.

And on top of that, even if he was able to figure all of that out, he wouldn't be able to obtain a print from a re-engineered scan from a computer. Look, I know it's a movie, and I can accept that, but it's not plausible in any sense of the real world to get a print the way he did.

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:24 PM   #391
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he wouldn't be able to obtain a print from a re-engineered scan from a computer.
Why? Because there's no computer In REAL LIFE with that capability?

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:33 PM   #392
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Why? Because there's no computer In REAL LIFE with that capability?


Did...did you read a thing I said?

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:40 PM   #393
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Yes... that's why I quoted only a specific part of your post. You're saying that he couldn't obtain a print from a re-engineered scan from a computer, but the computer in this film was able to.

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:41 PM   #394
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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I didn't mind Batman nabbing the guy in China so much. Batman's not on the police payroll or records. He acts independently. Everything he does is illegal. All Dent & Gordon have to do is deny having anything to do with nabbing Lau and they most certainly would be able to keep him in custody. Other than that, yeah you're right.
It doesn't matter. You can't extradite a national. In the real world that would've been an international incident. Granted it's a movie, but I still think that was a tad over the top.

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:43 PM   #395
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Doesn't Gordon states that he doesn't want the Joker in the county jail? And I've never been to any police station (true!) but I always thought that there are jail cells within a police station.
Not the way they had in laid out.
Quote:
But the police in this film does. Maybe they still underestimate the Joker. Maybe they are confident that the guy they left with the Joker won't be harmed by this mass murderer. Maybe this fictional police force is really that incompetent. What I'm trying to say here is in the overall story, this particular point doesn't matter. You're just nitpicking.
The whole scene is basically a massive plot device to get us to the next scene. Even by the premises set down by the movie is incredibly ridiculous.

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:46 PM   #396
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Yes... that's why I quoted only a specific part of your post. You're saying that he couldn't obtain a print from a re-engineered scan from a computer, but the computer in this film was able to.


Yes, I know, I even said that a few posts above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty
But hey, it's a movie, it's all just a suspension of disbelief.
Of course the computer was able to, because it's not real, therefore, we have a suspension of disbelief. What's your point?

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:53 PM   #397
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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It doesn't matter. You can't extradite a national. In the real world that would've been an international incident. Granted it's a movie, but I still think that was a tad over the top.
I dont think comic book flicks are for you

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Old 04-05-2011, 08:54 PM   #398
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It doesn't matter. You can't extradite a national. In the real world that would've been an international incident. Granted it's a movie, but I still think that was a tad over the top.
It is really an international incident. But I don't think it needs to be addressed in the film. Do we really need to see how the top country officials deal with the Chinese government in a Batman film? And do you think a police force who needs a witness to put down a crime mob would give that witness back to from where he's originally from when he's already in custody?

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The whole scene is basically a massive plot device to get us to the next scene.
It is. If you have a problem with it then I have no more to say.


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Old 04-05-2011, 08:56 PM   #399
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Of course the computer was able to, because it's not real, therefore, we have a suspension of disbelief. What's your point?
Okay. It's alright now .

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Old 04-05-2011, 09:19 PM   #400
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

im cool with a film requiring a suspension of disbelief. but that has its boundaries, even for a comic book film. and for a film that has always prided itself on being rooted in "realism", it often had some pretty high expectations of beliefs that required suspending.

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