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View Poll Results: Is Snyder's DC trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?
Yes 64 60.38%
No, there are worse superhero film trilogies 22 20.75%
No, I like the Snyder DC trilogy 10 9.43%
I'm Not Sure 10 9.43%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-11-2017, 10:41 AM   #301
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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Originally Posted by Adhesive Boy View Post
TDK is a crime movie so it clearly has plenty of similarities. I've heard lots of fans talk about how it's great because it transcended the superhero genre in the manner of being a crime movie instead of being like superhero movies, so it's a view shared by many that love it.
TDK is a superhero comic book movie that has lots of crime movie elements. E.g. take the critical consensus on RT;

Dark, complex and unforgettable, The Dark Knight succeeds not just as an entertaining comic book film, but as a richly thrilling crime saga.

That's what fans are talking about. It was able to weave in elements of a crime saga movie while still being able to successfully be a great superhero movie. That's why it transcended the genre for most. Because it went above and beyond the normal limits of a CBM.

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No, you can always remove the superhero part since that's not really a genre but a template in which you create a movie of a genre. A superhero movie can be a crime film, a drama, an epic action, etc. And when comparing to other non-superhero movies you of course pick those with the same kind of genre. That of course doesn't mean that the movies are exactly the same, but that's not necessary in order to compare movies.
Of course it's necessary. How can you even think otherwise? If you're going to compare movies, you don't omit one of the largest elements of it that makes it what it is. Comparing a superhero movie to any movie while omitting the superhero part is like comparing a chocolate cake to another cake and omitting the chocolate part.

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The main reason for the comparison I brought up is that there are lots of crime movies where the script actually makes the bad guy really smart instead of resorting to plot armor like they did with The Joker. The Joker is a villain of a style that makes comparisons to well written gangsters/criminals very easy.
I just can't follow this logic. Lots of movies make the villain really smart e.g. Hans Landa, Hannibal Lecter etc, but we don't compare them to crime movies, or any other movies outside their genre just because they have a smart villain.

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And GotG is definitely a Sci-fi movie, although space opera is a more exact fit. Calling it a CBM only is pretty dumb as that says nearly nothing about the content. Comic books contain all sorts of genres and stories. Logan and GotG are both CBM's, which should tell anyone that you need to be more specific than that genre in order to actually say anything about the movies.
GOTG is a comic book movie. The fact it's set in space doesn't alter that. Comic book stories spread over all kinds of settings. E.g. Jonah Hex is in the Wild West, but its still a comic book movie. If you want to say anything about the nature of the movie then you go into specifics. Like all horror movies are not the same, but they are still horror movies. Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, Scream are slashers. Paranormal Activity, The Conjuring are supernatural. The Thing, The Descent are creature features etc.

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Being serious, gritty and realistic puts more pressure on living up to that. TDK has a tone where it becomes ridiculous that the Gotham police force is so utterly incompetent. It would have been expected if it was a comedy like the 60s TV show though. Different tones require different treatment. It's pretty easy to see why Goyer didn't go into the fields of science or economics as when looking at the scripts he's helped write they all have logic issues.
No it doesn't. Not even remotely. There are plenty of great Batman stories that are serious and gritty, set in a world far more OTT than Nolan's, and they work beautifully. BTAS is full of them, for example.

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What you're missing is probably that we're talking about subjective matters and that people aren't going to write "imo" after everything. People defending TDK here are doing the exact same thing as I do, and it was such an "objectively stated" post that I responded to in the first place. People state their opinions like that all the time on this forum. Better to just go along with it instead of jumping into meta discussions all the time.
I'm perfectly aware it's subjective. Did I ever ask you to state 'imo' after everything you have been saying? We're not arguing you're right to believe these things. We're discussing the reasoning and logic behind these subjective views of yours.

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And I don't base my opinions on what others think, I can form my own.
So can I.

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No superhero movie has had even remotely as much influence as the first Superman but that doesn't make me think it's the best (although I do think it is great as I grew up with it).
Nor do I. There's more reasons besides it's influence that make it great. All great movies have more than one singular reason why they are great. That's why they endure for years as greats. They stand the test of time on the strength of many merits.

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Old 12-11-2017, 11:48 AM   #302
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
TDK is a superhero comic book movie that has lots of crime movie elements. E.g. take the critical consensus on RT;

Dark, complex and unforgettable, The Dark Knight succeeds not just as an entertaining comic book film, but as a richly thrilling crime saga.

That's what fans are talking about. It was able to weave in elements of a crime saga movie while still being able to successfully be a great superhero movie. That's why it transcended the genre for most. Because it went above and beyond the normal limits of a CBM.
I meant specifically what I wrote, as I have seen many people say that, and have had discussions with such people.

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Of course it's necessary. How can you even think otherwise? If you're going to compare movies, you don't omit one of the largest elements of it that makes it what it is. Comparing a superhero movie to any movie while omitting the superhero part is like comparing a chocolate cake to another cake and omitting the chocolate part.
What I said was that you take away the superhero genre and look what other genre the film belongs to in order to find what to compare to. The point being that it's of course not relevant to look at the superhero genre when you're looking for non-superhero movies to compare to.

I didn't say that you should omit it when then doing the actual comparison, just when figuring out which movies that make the most sense to compare to.

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I just can't follow this logic. Lots of movies make the villain really smart e.g. Hans Landa, Hannibal Lecter etc, but we don't compare them to crime movies, or any other movies outside their genre just because they have a smart villain.
SotL is a crime movie so yes, it really gets compared to that. And the reason I just compare to crime movies is because TDK has that aspect. You can really compare to any well written movie with a similar serious and realistic tone and I'll point out how much of a plot armor character the Joker is in comparison. I've been keen to blame Goyer, who has written many films with weak logic, but I'm not sure I'm entirely fair to put it all on him as the TDKT is clearly Nolan's sloppiest works overall.

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GOTG is a comic book movie. The fact it's set in space doesn't alter that. Comic book stories spread over all kinds of settings. E.g. Jonah Hex is in the Wild West, but its still a comic book movie. If you want to say anything about the nature of the movie then you go into specifics. Like all horror movies are not the same, but they are still horror movies. Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, Scream are slashers. Paranormal Activity, The Conjuring are supernatural. The Thing, The Descent are creature features etc.
I didn't say it isn't a comic book movie, I said that it's dumb to say that it's only a comic book movie in terms of genre. Look at any movie site and you'll see several genres listed under almost every movie (despite that template genres like CBM's aren't usually listed). Genres of course don't say everything but when appropriately used they say a hell of a lot more than "CBM" so you can use them to say something without having to actually type out sentences to describe it in fine detail.

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No it doesn't. Not even remotely. There are plenty of great Batman stories that are serious and gritty, set in a world far more OTT than Nolan's, and they work beautifully. BTAS is full of them, for example.
You're missing that I mentioned relative realism. TDK tries to be much closer to a realistic world than most superhero movies, dealing with much smaller issues and presenting them less in a superhero manner, which breaks the marriage between tone and execution for me. I face palm when I see policemen that don't even keep their eyes half open when they approach a crime scene in such context. Such lazy writing, especially when the level of ambition was so high in some other aspects.

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I'm perfectly aware it's subjective. Did I ever ask you to state 'imo' after everything you have been saying? We're not arguing you're right to believe these things. We're discussing the reasoning and logic behind these subjective views of yours.
Good, then you wouldn't have had to ask "for whom?" and if there's a consensus" since you'd know the answer is "for me" and "there doesn't have to be since I can make up my own opinions". That would have saved some time.

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Nor do I. There's more reasons besides it's influence that make it great. All great movies have more than one singular reason why they are great. That's why they endure for years as greats. They stand the test of time on the strength of many merits.
You used that it's been inspiring other movies as an argument and I showed that I don't think that's relevant to whether the movie is good. And I feel like I yet again should point out that I like TDK and didn't say that I think it's a failure as a movie, just in certain aspects (in particular compared to the opinions of some others, which is why this came up in the discussion about being overrated).

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Old 12-11-2017, 01:16 PM   #303
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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I meant specifically what I wrote, as I have seen many people say that, and have had discussions with such people.
I don't get why you brought up discussions you've had. I've had many discussions with people who think the Martha moment in BvS is awesome, and those who dislike it just don't get it. But I wouldn't use that as an argument for it working.

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What I said was that you take away the superhero genre and look what other genre the film belongs to in order to find what to compare to. The point being that it's of course not relevant to look at the superhero genre when you're looking for non-superhero movies to compare to.
But again that is redundant. You don't take away essential core elements to make comparisons. Because if you have to do that then they are not comparable in the first place.

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I didn't say that you should omit it when then doing the actual comparison, just when figuring out which movies that make the most sense to compare to.
By that logic you can strip away essential elements of lots of different movies to make comparisons. I don't know why anyone would do that, though, since you are comparing a completely different movie by doing that.

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SotL is a crime movie so yes, it really gets compared to that. And the reason I just compare to crime movies is because TDK has that aspect. You can really compare to any well written movie with a similar serious and realistic tone and I'll point out how much of a plot armor character the Joker is in comparison. I've been keen to blame Goyer, who has written many films with weak logic, but I'm not sure I'm entirely fair to put it all on him as the TDKT is clearly Nolan's sloppiest works overall.
SOTL is a thriller, or some even argue it is a horror. I can see a valid argument for either. But a crime movie, no. It has crime movie elements, but it's a psychological horror/thriller movie.

I'm not interested in discussing who you want to blame for issues you have with the movie, but a smart villain can be in any kind of movie. And is. So your comparison based on that makes no sense.

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I didn't say it isn't a comic book movie, I said that it's dumb to say that it's only a comic book movie in terms of genre. Look at any movie site and you'll see several genres listed under almost every movie (despite that template genres like CBM's aren't usually listed). Genres of course don't say everything but when appropriately used they say a hell of a lot more than "CBM" so you can use them to say something without having to actually type out sentences to describe it in fine detail.
That's not the point. If you want to say more about the movie, you give details. But when saying what the movie actually is, it's a comic book movie. Comic book movies like horrors, thrillers, Sci Fi etc come in different flavors, but are still those type of movies.

If we want to watch a horror movie do we want psycho slashers, ghost tales, creature features etc. Or if we watch a comedy do we want tongue in cheek types like Scary Movie or Shaun of the Dead, chick flick type ones like Bridesmaids or Mean Girls etc.

Just because you slot a movie under a particular heading doesn't mean you're stripping it down to nothing. There's variety in every genre.

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You're missing that I mentioned relative realism. TDK tries to be much closer to a realistic world than most superhero movies, dealing with much smaller issues and presenting them less in a superhero manner, which breaks the marriage between tone and execution for me.
This is a moot point to discuss any further. You are repeatedly telling me this didn't work for you, when it has and does work for Batman tales which are far more OTT, and yet present their themes and stories in a very grounded gritty way.

If it didn't work for you here, then ok that's your loss.

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Good, then you wouldn't have had to ask "for whom?" and if there's a consensus" since you'd know the answer is "for me" and "there doesn't have to be since I can make up my own opinions". That would have saved some time.
I asked for whom because you were making a blanket statement like you were speaking for a consensus. Compared to your other statements like "which breaks the marriage between tone and execution for me" where you were clearly addressing something that bothered you specifically rather than something that was a widespread issue.

That's why I asked for whom on that specific point, and not your others. Sorry if I misinterpreted that.

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You used that it's been inspiring other movies as an argument and I showed that I don't think that's relevant to whether the movie is good. And I feel like I yet again should point out that I like TDK and didn't say that I think it's a failure as a movie, just in certain aspects (in particular compared to the opinions of some others, which is why this came up in the discussion about being overrated).
I mentioned inspiration to other movies as one of the examples of its enduring status. Not it's sole merit.

I know you like TDK. I never question your liking of it, or your right to have have any of the opinions you've shared here. All we've done is discuss your logic and reasoning behind them. This is a discussion forum after all.

But I think this one has run its course. Nice chatting with you, buddy.

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Old 12-11-2017, 09:38 PM   #304
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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Don't blame others for misinterpretations when you pretty much went out of your way to make an unclear statement
You jumped to a silly conclusion about what I said, seemingly continue to jump to said silly conclusion if the rest of your post is any indication, and its supposed to be entirely my fault? LOL, Ok. Believe what you like.

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Old 12-11-2017, 11:26 PM   #305
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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When arguing whether or not a film is good, you're arguing why the movie doesn't work for you essentially. So, if something doesn't work for me, why should I care about the opinions of others? Lots of people love black liquorish. I don't. You can argue its merits with me all day, but when I put that in my mouth, I instantly spit it out and need to drown out that disgusting taste. Same with movies. No matter how many people in the world love black liqourish in all its glory, you will never hear me say anything kind about it. Why should I treat movies any differently, since a movie is also appreciated on a level of taste? Whenever people go down this route of saying "Well, RT and the domestic BO say this, therefore you have to admit it is good on some level" tells me you're looking for some type of validation or just trying to write off the opinions of others by making some type of skewed metric. The simpler answer is that in the eyes of that beholder, it just isn't a good movie. Just like my previously mentioned black liquorish is to me. Same analogy would apply if we're talking about pizza. Just because everyone loves pizza magically means you have to. So, guy doesn't like TDK, though I may disagree, it still all comes down to personal taste.
And that's fine. At no point did I say he had to admit TDK was a good film.

However, if you want to debate the merits of a film, then you do have to take into account all the information that is available. And part of that information is how it was received by the critics and masses (not the only information to look at, but a piece).

Now, if you simply want to say that TDK doesn't work for you, that's fine. There's no discussion or debate, it is simply your opinion.

But if you try to make your own qualifying statement on a film, then you are inviting debate, as a qualifying statemen by it's nature will require you to support this statement. You have to support it with all available information, and you would still need to take into account the reception of the film.

No one is under grounds to support their personal taste of a film, but once you come onto a forum board and decide to place an evaluation of quality on a film, you will be expected to have information to support your claim.

If you simply want to state if you like a film or not, that's fine. It's also not a discussion, it's a statement. At the end of the day, we're all here to discuss. There's a difference between saying "I don't like X film" and "I think X film is a bad film."

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Old 12-11-2017, 11:39 PM   #306
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

There's a difference between saying "I don't like X film" and "I think X film is a bad film."

Is there though?...

I eat Apples cuz I love Apples but I unknowingly bite into a bad Apple, I'm not gonna eat cuz "I don't like rotten Apples which I also think are bad."


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Old 12-12-2017, 12:12 AM   #307
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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There's a difference between saying "I don't like X film" and "I think X film is a bad film."

Is there though?...

I eat Apples cuz I love Apples but I unknowingly bite into a bad Apple, I'm not gonna eat cuz "I don't like rotten Apples which I also think are bad."
Yes. One is a statement that places a quality value on a product, as compared to other products. Saying something is a bad movie also implies, by nature, that there is such thing as a good movie, and there are ways to evaluate this.

Saying you dont like something does not imply the value of that thing to anyone other than you, and as such you really need to further explanation on the topic since the only metric to evaluate it is your personal enjoyment. And there is no way to debating this or have a discussion about it.

Saying something is bad will require a level of defense because that claim by it's nature invites comparison of the thing your claim is bad to other things of a similar nature.

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Old 12-12-2017, 12:40 AM   #308
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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Yes. One is a statement that places a quality value on a product, as compared to other products. Saying something is a bad movie also implies, by nature, that there is such thing as a good movie, and there are ways to evaluate this.

Saying you dont like something does not imply the value of that thing to anyone other than you, and as such you really need to further explanation on the topic since the only metric to evaluate it is your personal enjoyment. And there is no way to debating this or have a discussion about it.

Saying something is bad will require a level of defense because that claim by it's nature invites comparison of the thing your claim is bad to other things of a similar nature.

A Ripe fruit is a good fruit but if you don't like it cuz it doesn't taste good to you, its still bad.

A technically well made feature can still be a bad film.

My point is Bad things and garbage are often more popular. Especially when they "look" or feel good.

Enough people Smoke cuz of how it makes them feel. They know its bad. They enjoy it anyway. No level of defense is gonna matter.
Movies are the same.

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Old 12-12-2017, 01:10 AM   #309
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I voted 'I'm not sure', simply because it's not actually a trilogy. They don't really exist in these shared universes because the characters & stories all bleed into multiple films.

Look at the MCU, you've got the Russo's that directed Winter Solder, Civil War & Infinity War, that isn't a trilogy. Also got Iron Man 1-3 & Thor 1-3 which are the trilogy films even though the characters have big roles in other collaboration/team up movies.

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Old 12-12-2017, 08:48 AM   #310
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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A Ripe fruit is a good fruit but if you don't like it cuz it doesn't taste good to you, its still bad.

A technically well made feature can still be a bad film.

My point is Bad things and garbage are often more popular. Especially when they "look" or feel good.

Enough people Smoke cuz of how it makes them feel. They know its bad. They enjoy it anyway. No level of defense is gonna matter.
Movies are the same.
And you have to come up with reasons to support all these claims and support your arguments. However, if you simply said, "I don't like this" the discussion essentially ends there.

And this is the crux of my point. It is all well and good to respect people's opinions (unless of course their opinions are contradictory to a fact. "It's my opinion Obama isn't an American" etc). But the way you phrased an opinion matters, and it does not make it free from debate, or free from defense.

If you make an opinionated statement that designates a level of quality to a product, you should be prepared to defend your opinion.

Saying "this is my and therefore there can be no argument" is lazy defense and kills any discussion to be had. And we're not here to make statements and leave with no engagement with one another.

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Old 12-12-2017, 08:56 AM   #311
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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And that's fine. At no point did I say he had to admit TDK was a good film.

However, if you want to debate the merits of a film, then you do have to take into account all the information that is available. And part of that information is how it was received by the critics and masses (not the only information to look at, but a piece).
I'm sorry, that's just crap to me. When forming an individual opinion on something or stating why something doesn't work, the opinion of the general movie critics and RT means nothing. Yes, I agree you have to defend your point on why you feel that way, but film merit is judged on a personal basis. If my argument is "Everyone hated The Dark Knight" then pointing out RT scores and such matters. But that is not an argument of film merit, that is a measure of film popularity. Those are 2 different things, and you're trying to mold them into the same thing.

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Old 12-12-2017, 09:36 AM   #312
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I'm sorry, that's just crap to me. When forming an individual opinion on something or stating why something doesn't work, the opinion of the general movie critics and RT means nothing. Yes, I agree you have to defend your point on why you feel that way, but film merit is judged on a personal basis. If my argument is "Everyone hated The Dark Knight" then pointing out RT scores and such matters. But that is not an argument of film merit, that is a measure of film popularity. Those are 2 different things, and you're trying to mold them into the same thing.
If you are statinf that a film is a bad film, you should be taking into account that it had critical praise, high reviews from the general public, and BO success when forming your argument, even if it's to explain why you think this information isn't as important to the quality of the film.

Again, at no point was I saying that we should judge a film solely on this information, I only said it was foolish to discount it. Because when you yourself decide to put a level of quality on something that is subjective, you are going to need to take into account the ways people judge this subjective thing, even if it's only to argue against it.

And again, this is not something I'm saying you should take into account when forming whether or not you like something, it's something you need to take into account when you decide to call something good or bad. Liking or disliking something and saying they're good or bad are two different things.

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Old 12-12-2017, 09:51 AM   #313
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Stating that a film is a bad film, and not taking into account that it had critical praise, high reviews from the general public, and BO success are certainly something you need to take into account when forming your argument, even if it's to explain why you think this information isn't as important to the quality of the film.

Again, at no point was I saying that we should judge a film solely on this information, I only said it was foolish to discount it. Because when you yourself decide to put a level of quality on something that is subjective, you are going to need to take into account the ways people judge this subjective thing, even if it's only to argue against it.

And again, this is not something I'm saying you should take into account when forming whether or not you like something, it's something you need to take into account when you decide to call something good or bad. Liking or disliking something and saying they're good or bad are two different things.
Again, this is an example of over-complicating things. If you're opinion is you dislike something, then to you its bad. What you're doing is changing the argument from a micro level (in this case, you yourself) to a macro one (everyone else). Let's reverse this for a second and talk about a less popular film. I like Spider-Man 3. Many people don't share my enjoyment of it. Are you saying I should just say it is a bad movie because other people say it is? Or, are we just changing the argument to "Everyone else loves The Dark Knight, therefore even if you don't like it you must admit it is the best movie ever because everyone else says it is" coming from a place of I like the movie and don't want to be challenged. Personally, when you're bringing these metrics into a conversation about how I view the movie artistically, you're just saying to me I don't want to argue art philosophically, I want to argue art as something quantifiable. Something that can be measured. Use the opinions of other people as my defense because I don't want to defend the art of the movie myself, or alternately this conversation is beneath me because you think you're so right that you want to hammer into the person you're debating how right you are.

I'm sorry, this to me is flawed logic. People hated Blade Runner for years. Thought it was crap. Only because we are free thinking people and not computers do we find that critics were wrong on Blade Runner. Critics praised Godfather Part 3 in droves, but time has decided that critics got that wrong because enough people challenged that narrative. But if we were going by the RT scores they would have had at the time, then I would have been crazy to say Blade Runner was better. If you want to argue a movie with me and judge its merits, defend the movie itself. Talk to me about the story, its plot, its visuals, etc. Don't feed me metrics filtered by 3rd parties in an attempt to tell me what to think. That's not a defense of merit. That's gaging public perception and popularity. That has nothing to do with art. Art is appreciated on a personal level. It either speaks to you or it doesn't. Some film fans were inspired by Orson Welles, but others by Ed Wood. The guy who appreciated Ed Wood more than Orson Welles isn't wrong (though most would say he is most definitely), he just has a different point-of-view.

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Old 12-12-2017, 10:04 AM   #314
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Again, this is an example of over-complicating things. If you're opinion is you dislike something, then to you its bad. What you're doing is changing the argument from a micro level (in this case, you yourself) to a macro one (everyone else). Let's reverse this for a second and talk about a less popular film. I like Spider-Man 3. Many people don't share my enjoyment of it. Are you saying I should just say it is a bad movie because other people say it is? Or, are we just changing the argument to "Everyone else loves The Dark Knight, therefore even if you don't like it you must admit it is the best movie ever because everyone else says it is" coming from a place of I like the movie and don't want to be challenged. Personally, when you're bringing these metrics into a conversation about how I view the movie artistically, you're just saying to me I don't want to argue art philosophically, I want to argue art as something quantifiable. Something that can be measured. Use the opinions of other people as my defense because I don't want to defend the art of the movie myself, or alternately this conversation is beneath me because you think you're so right that you want to hammer into the person you're debating how right you are.

I'm sorry, this to me is flawed logic. People hated Blade Runner for years. Thought it was crap. Only because we are free thinking people and not computers do we find that critics were wrong on Blade Runner. Critics praised Godfather Part 3 in droves, but time has decided that critics got that wrong because enough people challenged that narrative. But if we were going by the RT scores they would have had at the time, then I would have been crazy to say Blade Runner was better. If you want to argue a movie with me and judge its merits, defend the movie itself. Talk to me about the story, its plot, its visuals, etc. Don't feed me metrics filtered by 3rd parties in an attempt to tell me what to think. That's not a defense of merit. That's gaging public perception and popularity. That has nothing to do with art. Art is appreciated on a personal level. It either speaks to you or it doesn't. Some film fans were inspired by Orson Welles, but others by Ed Wood. The guy who appreciated Ed Wood more than Orson Welles isn't wrong (though most would say he is most definitely), he just has a different point-of-view.
I actually agree with you. You've misunderstood the point of my argument here.

All I have said, a few times now, is that not taking into account the popular and crticial reception of a film when declaring a film's quality is a foolish thing to do.

I am not saying that you must accept the popular or critical reception as correct.

However, even if you disagree with it, you must take the information into account to formulate a reason for why you believe it does or doesn't support your argument, and why it should or shouldn't matter. Even if it's to dismiss it, you must consider it.

That is my point.

As to my other point, you can absolutely dislike a film but realize that it is still a good film. You can also like something and know it's a bad film. I enjoy the Mario Bros movie because it's nostalgic to me and I can laugh at it, but it's an awful film. I dislike Spider-man 2, but I realize that it's a very well made film. I don't think it's bad, I just don't like the way it adapted one of my favorite characters.

So again, liking and disliking something is different than claiming it is good or bad. You thinking it's good or bad can be a reason why you like or dislike it, but it also could have nothing to do with it.

They're separate things.

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Old 12-12-2017, 10:15 AM   #315
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So again, liking and disliking something is different than claiming it is good or bad. You thinking it's good or bad can be a reason why you like or dislike it, but it also could have nothing to do with it.

They're separate things.
They CAN be separate things. I love The Room. It is a terrible movie but I love it in a so bad it's good way. But, just because the 2 CAN be separate doesn't mean that they are to you. This is my point. Many call Forrest Gump a bad movie. I don't share that opinion, but I have talked to plenty who legitimately hate it and everything it stands for. Though it is sort of popular to hate on the movie to an extent, I think most would say that is a good movie if we take a poll. But arguing with people on why they hate that movie gave me perspectives I never considered. I still don't agree, but I see where they're coming from. So, if someone hates TDKT and just thinks it is garbage, that doesn't mean they have to recognize that it is good or admit the movie is good. Some people just cannot share that opinion, though I would agree, they should be able to defend it.

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Old 12-12-2017, 10:19 AM   #316
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I don't get why you brought up discussions you've had. I've had many discussions with people who think the Martha moment in BvS is awesome, and those who dislike it just don't get it. But I wouldn't use that as an argument for it working.
This part has nothing to do with the movie working or not, it was about whether TDK fits in the crime movie genre.

Quote:
But again that is redundant. You don't take away essential core elements to make comparisons. Because if you have to do that then they are not comparable in the first place.

By that logic you can strip away essential elements of lots of different movies to make comparisons. I don't know why anyone would do that, though, since you are comparing a completely different movie by doing that.
I don't know how to write what I said in a simpler way. I don't get how you can still not get that the actual comparison isn't made without taking into account that one is a superhero movie when I stated that outright. I very clearly said that it's about not looking at the superhero movie genre but the other ones when looking for other movies to compare with.

I completely reject your notion that you can't compare superhero movies to movies in other genres, especially those that share genres (since again, a movie often belongs to several genres). If I was wrong there wouldn't be much to talk about in the movie world.



Quote:
SOTL is a thriller, or some even argue it is a horror. I can see a valid argument for either. But a crime movie, no. It has crime movie elements, but it's a psychological horror/thriller movie.
For example, the first listed genre on IMDB for SotL is "Crime". It's a common view that it's one of the movie's genres. I'm just saying that as I think my arguments for why I think it has crime movie aspects should be fairly obvious.

[/QUOTE]I'm not interested in discussing who you want to blame for issues you have with the movie, but a smart villain can be in any kind of movie. And is. So your comparison based on that makes no sense.
Quote:

My comparison makes perfect sense. People that think the Joker is just written smartly and doesn't rely on plot armor must have terribly low standards for what's considered intelligent.
That's not the point. If you want to say more about the movie, you give details. But when saying what the movie actually is, it's a comic book movie. Comic book movies like horrors, thrillers, Sci Fi etc come in different flavors, but are still those type of movies.

If we want to watch a horror movie do we want psycho slashers, ghost tales, creature features etc. Or if we watch a comedy do we want tongue in cheek types like Scary Movie or Shaun of the Dead, chick flick type ones like Bridesmaids or Mean Girls etc.

Just because you slot a movie under a particular heading doesn't mean you're stripping it down to nothing. There's variety in every genre. [/QUOTE]

Genres are made to say something about the individual movie and no one or nothing says that you should only use one to describe something. It seems like that's more of a personal limitation you've put on yourself. Movie sites etc have been labeling movies with multiple genres forever for a reason. A good middle that allows you to describe a movie with more worth than with just one genre, but stops way short of having to actually describe it with text.

[/QUOTE]This is a moot point to discuss any further. You are repeatedly telling me this didn't work for you, when it has and does work for Batman tales which are far more OTT, and yet present their themes and stories in a very grounded gritty way.

If it didn't work for you here, then ok that's your loss.[/QUOTE]

Being OTT in general (meaning that the overall tone is OTT) can actually help that issue, which is the reason many more "comic booky" superhero movies can get away with silly stuff better. TDK tries to ground itself in realism to a greater extent than most Batman stuff and that's why things like the utter incompetence of the police force becomes extra problematic for me. Something like that could be problematic even without that tone though.

[/QUOTE]I asked for whom because you were making a blanket statement like you were speaking for a consensus. Compared to your other statements like "which breaks the marriage between tone and execution for me" where you were clearly addressing something that bothered you specifically rather than something that was a widespread issue.

That's why I asked for whom on that specific point, and not your others. Sorry if I misinterpreted that.[/QUOTE]

No need to apologize, you're not responsible for what I write. I can throw in an "imo" or similar here and there and that's more meant as a reminder of that I'm aware of what I'm writing is personal opinion. I get that it can make for interpretations like the one you just made, but that's not the intended message.

Quote:
I mentioned inspiration to other movies as one of the examples of its enduring status. Not it's sole merit.

I know you like TDK. I never question your liking of it, or your right to have have any of the opinions you've shared here. All we've done is discuss your logic and reasoning behind them. This is a discussion forum after all.

But I think this one has run its course. Nice chatting with you, buddy.
I get that since a movie won't endure without having qualities that makes it endure.

I think I might point that out for myself as much as others since as I still like the movie overall it can feel a bit odd to do nothing but talk about what I think it fails in. It's probably because I like some parts quite a bit that I get caught in dwelling on the negatives. It becomes about what it could have been for me, which I guess is what it is for many others.

Nice chatting with you too.

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Old 12-12-2017, 11:22 AM   #317
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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Robin: Riddler and Two-Face make a pretty lethal combination. Figured you could use a hand.

Batman
:
Two against two are better odds.

Robin
:
I can't promise I won't kill Harvey.

Batman
:
Every man's got to go his own way... a friend told me that.

Robin
:
Not just a friend... :: extends hand ::

Batman: A partner... :: returns handshake ::




Compare that to...

"OMG YOUR REAL NAME IS ROBIN!?!?!?!?"

"I'll get drive through."

"Hot entrance!"

"The ground, it's all metal. It's full of holes. You know, holey."

"My opinion? This letter writer is a total wacko."

"The Bat-Signal is not a Beeper."

"BATMAN! AAAHHHHHHHH!"

"BOILING ACIIIIIIIIIIID!!!!"

Cable boxes that manipulate people's brainwaves.

Batman driving up the side of a building to... where, exactly?

For crying out loud, NIPPLES AND GIANT CROTCH PIECES ON THE BATSUITS.

That movie had the most garbage script of any superhero film until Batman & Robin came along. Jesus, George Lucas wrote better dialogue and plot points in Attack of the Clones.

Batman Forever sucks.


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Old 12-12-2017, 12:11 PM   #318
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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They CAN be separate things. I love The Room. It is a terrible movie but I love it in a so bad it's good way. But, just because the 2 CAN be separate doesn't mean that they are to you. This is my point. Many call Forrest Gump a bad movie. I don't share that opinion, but I have talked to plenty who legitimately hate it and everything it stands for. Though it is sort of popular to hate on the movie to an extent, I think most would say that is a good movie if we take a poll. But arguing with people on why they hate that movie gave me perspectives I never considered. I still don't agree, but I see where they're coming from. So, if someone hates TDKT and just thinks it is garbage, that doesn't mean they have to recognize that it is good or admit the movie is good. Some people just cannot share that opinion, though I would agree, they should be able to defend it.
And the last statement is really my point in terms of differentiating like/dislike and good/bad. If you call something good or bad, you should be prepared to defend it. If you say you love me or dislike something, that's a claim that really has no way of being debated.

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Old 12-12-2017, 03:50 PM   #319
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

The Dark Knight:


The Good:

- The real world aesthetic and tone makes it unique and lends additional weight to the story.
- Heath Ledger delivers an inspired, entertaining performance that's hard to forget.
- It exhibits a level of thematic depth not often seen in superhero flicks.

The Bad:

- It is extremely bloated on all fronts (Story, characters, ideas).
- It can be very boring.
- Christian Bale is blank as Bruce, ridiculous as Batman.


What The Critics Thought:

- Who gives a s***.

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Old 12-12-2017, 04:18 PM   #320
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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And you have to come up with reasons to support all these claims and support your arguments. However, if you simply said, "I don't like this" the discussion essentially ends there.

And this is the crux of my point. It is all well and good to respect people's opinions (unless of course their opinions are contradictory to a fact. "It's my opinion Obama isn't an American" etc). But the way you phrased an opinion matters, and it does not make it free from debate, or free from defense.

If you make an opinionated statement that designates a level of quality to a product, you should be prepared to defend your opinion.

Saying "this is my and therefore there can be no argument" is lazy defense and kills any discussion to be had. And we're not here to make statements and leave with no engagement with one another.

hahahaha! If the world was a court room, sure. The idea of practicing the discipline to defend everything said is as crazy as being in a relationship where everything said is twisted and construed by your partner. It's frustrating as hell and exhausting.

You spend alot of time with kids?...Do you ever explain something to them that they don't understand and than have to explain the explanation? hahahaha! Doing that with adults is so much more frustrating.

To share an opinion no matter how its phrased doesn't require any defense at all. It requires acceptance or not and thats it.

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Old 12-12-2017, 04:46 PM   #321
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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Originally Posted by Deck Rickard View Post
"I'll get drive through."

"Hot entrance!"

"The ground, it's all metal. It's full of holes. You know, holey."

"My opinion? This letter writer is a total wacko."

"The Bat-Signal is not a Beeper."

"BATMAN! AAAHHHHHHHH!"

"BOILING ACIIIIIIIIIIID!!!!"

Cable boxes that manipulate people's brainwaves.

Batman driving up the side of a building to... where, exactly?

For crying out loud, NIPPLES AND GIANT CROTCH PIECES ON THE BATSUITS.

That movie had the most garbage script of any superhero film until Batman & Robin came along. Jesus, George Lucas wrote better dialogue and plot points in Attack of the Clones.

Batman Forever sucks.

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Old 12-12-2017, 05:46 PM   #322
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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hahahaha! If the world was a court room, sure. The idea of practicing the discipline to defend everything said is as crazy as being in a relationship where everything said is twisted and construed by your partner. It's frustrating as hell and exhausting.

You spend alot of time with kids?...Do you ever explain something to them that they don't understand and than have to explain the explanation? hahahaha! Doing that with adults is so much more frustrating.

To share an opinion no matter how its phrased doesn't require any defense at all. It requires acceptance or not and thats it.
I've taught all grade levels K-12, so yeah. And I obviously don't talk to children the way I speak to adults, but I always encourage to explore the possible reasons why art makes them feel a certain way. Critical thinking is a good skill to teach.

That aside, I didn't think I needed to explain that I was referring to this forum and how we state opinions in terms of discussion, and not life in general. I'll do my best to be more specific in the future.

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Old 12-12-2017, 08:38 PM   #323
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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Originally Posted by Deck Rickard View Post
"I'll get drive through."

"Hot entrance!"

"The ground, it's all metal. It's full of holes. You know, holey."

"My opinion? This letter writer is a total wacko."

"The Bat-Signal is not a Beeper."

"BATMAN! AAAHHHHHHHH!"

"BOILING ACIIIIIIIIIIID!!!!"

Cable boxes that manipulate people's brainwaves.

Batman driving up the side of a building to... where, exactly?

For crying out loud, NIPPLES AND GIANT CROTCH PIECES ON THE BATSUITS.

That movie had the most garbage script of any superhero film until Batman & Robin came along. Jesus, George Lucas wrote better dialogue and plot points in Attack of the Clones.

Batman Forever sucks.
sounds like a typical Bronze Age Batman comic to me.

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Old 12-12-2017, 10:00 PM   #324
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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sounds like a typical Bronze Age Batman comic to me.
Not the good ones.

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Old 12-12-2017, 10:05 PM   #325
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Default Re: Is Snyder's DCEU Trilogy the worst Superhero film trilogy?

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They CAN be separate things. I love The Room. It is a terrible movie but I love it in a so bad it's good way. But, just because the 2 CAN be separate doesn't mean that they are to you. This is my point. Many call Forrest Gump a bad movie. I don't share that opinion, but I have talked to plenty who legitimately hate it and everything it stands for. Though it is sort of popular to hate on the movie to an extent, I think most would say that is a good movie if we take a poll. But arguing with people on why they hate that movie gave me perspectives I never considered. I still don't agree, but I see where they're coming from. So, if someone hates TDKT and just thinks it is garbage, that doesn't mean they have to recognize that it is good or admit the movie is good. Some people just cannot share that opinion, though I would agree, they should be able to defend it.


I think TDK is the best SH movie ever and TDKR is just crap. Does that make me unbiased or just liable to be pounced by both sets of fans??

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