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Old 05-14-2015, 06:31 PM   #476
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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Originally Posted by ciscostudent561 View Post
good point,
but dont all the avengers have that
i mean that have each other in a way amirite amirite
Yeah, but the way I am understanding things, Thor knew the three warriors and Sif probably since they were very young. So, in a sense, they are probably very close, like family. Closest to that could be Cap and Bucky, if he ever comes around out of his funk (I really don't know how long Cap and Bucky knew eachother, but I am getting this feeling that they probably grew up together.)

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Old 05-17-2015, 03:56 PM   #477
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If you can't see how "revealing they never existed" is functionally indistinguishable from "killing them off", I'm not sure what to say. Either way, you just nuked his family.
How the hell is "killing them off" the same thing as revealing they never existed? You can't "kill off" a family that never existed.

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Old 05-17-2015, 04:13 PM   #478
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Why is it blasphemy to have an Avenger with an actual normal family life? Not everything has to be all corrupted with aliens, shadowy creatures, robots, etc. Can't a guy just have a wife and kids without fans crying foul?
I never said it was "blasphemy". I said it was was boring and a cliche Hollywood action movie trope. I also that by making him a loving and responsible husband and father was not what made Hawkeye a cool and semi popular character in the comics (and apparently not in the movies either with most moviegoers). What made Hawkeye cool and semi popular in the comics was that he was a cocky,arrogant,and sometimes hot headed character who thought that he was the best superhero on any team that he was on. He was essentially the Han Solo of the Avengers. Movie (and Ultimates) Hawkeye is a generic boring action hero with a wife and kids.

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Frankly, I found it refreshing to see that Barton had a conventional family. Again as his wife mentioned in the movie, amidst all the craziness and conflict amongst these larger than life individuals, there's something really pure to see one of them be legitimately normal.
And that's your opinion, which I respectfully disagree with.

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It pretty much gave me a much better appreciation for Hawkeye and his role with the team.
It made me not give a damn about the movie version of the character at all.

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Old 05-17-2015, 04:16 PM   #479
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Actually, I didn't care for the Hulkbuster scenes either. Personally, I would have replaced the Hawkeye family with scenes of him trying to save the twins and forming a more stronger bond with them.
That would have been really cool.

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Old 05-17-2015, 04:20 PM   #480
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And exactly what purpose would that serve?
The purpose would be to not make him seem like a generic Hollywood action hero.

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Old 05-17-2015, 04:33 PM   #481
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It's the butt hurt and very bitter Clintasha super stans talking.
For some, that might be the case. For me, I found it boring and cliche, and did not capture what made the MU version of Hawkeye interesting,cool,and funny.

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Old 05-17-2015, 05:09 PM   #482
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I didn't mind the family, but I do think MCU Hawkeye needs a lot of personality improvement. While they gave him a backstory and more of a character, he still lacks the smartass humor. There's about 4 or 5 lines in the film that sound Hawkeye-esque, all in the trailer, and the rest he's either a pokerface or a mute (not to mention, 4 or 5 lines in a Whedon film is "less" than in other films, since all of his character practically quip here and then). It's a shame since Jeremy Renner can totally pull it off.

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Old 05-17-2015, 06:47 PM   #483
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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The purpose would be to not make him seem like a generic Hollywood action hero.
Taking away his family wouldn't be any less generic.

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Old 05-17-2015, 07:29 PM   #484
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

The fact that Blade X continues to refer to a character that has a stable family/home life as a "generic Hollywood action hero," is amusing. He clearly hasn't actually seen many "Hollywood action movies" because that is most definitely NOT the norm.

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Old 05-17-2015, 07:36 PM   #485
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Well I assumed it was implied that the reason SHIELD wasn't involved was because this wasn't their fight.

As Rhodey explained to Tony in the bar why he wasn't told about the Mandarin,

"This isn't Superhero business, this is American business."

Sometimes, you gotta let the Govt. handle their ****. Had the situation escalated and gotten outta hand then SHIELD likely would've stepped in...
Oh you mean SHIELD, who's HQ was in WASHINGTON DC, had an American director, and American deputy-director, an America (Alexander Pierce) on the WSC, that had openly gotten involved/been active in events on US soil throughout Phase One, and had who are subject to Congressional oversight. Nope sorry, the "explanation" in IM3 was bullcrap, and didn't even remotely line up with their actions previously. Sorry Mr. Black, if you want me to buy it, come up with an excuse that isn't incredibly lame/nonsensical.\

As for "things getting out of hand," targets were being blown up in the US, the President was being personally threatened, Air Force One was attacked, and said President was KIDNAPPED! Please don't try to make me buy that SHIELD wouldn't get involved, because I don't. Not one bit.

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Old 05-17-2015, 07:45 PM   #486
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The fact that Blade X continues to refer to a character that has a stable family/home life as a "generic Hollywood action hero," is amusing. He clearly hasn't actually seen many "Hollywood action movies" because that is most definitely NOT the norm.
I was talking about the Hollywood cliche of most non powered action heroes (be they the lead in their own movie or part of an ensemble cast) who either have a wife and/or kids or an ex-wife and/or kids. That trope has been done to death. And FYI, a character doesn't have to have a wife and/or kids in order to have a stable normal life.

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Old 05-17-2015, 07:48 PM   #487
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What was the reason for him being absent from TWS again? I must have missed it. Was he watching his family?
I thought that conversation between the SHIELD agents near the end of Cap 2 about someone being in Afghanistan and people parking in his spot was about Barton, although I'm not certain as they didn't call him by name.

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Old 05-17-2015, 07:51 PM   #488
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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I was talking about the Hollywood cliche of most non powered action heroes (be they the lead in their own movie or part of an ensemble cast) who either have a wife and/or kids or an ex-wife and/or kids. That trope has been done to death. And FYI, a character doesn't have to have a wife and/or kids in order to have a stable normal life.
It's also a Hollywood cliché for them NOT to have those things. And it's certainly a COMIC BOOK cliché. And given that this is a comic book movie, what you're suggesting would be the most cliché thing that they could possibly do.

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Old 05-17-2015, 08:24 PM   #489
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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I never said it was "blasphemy". I said it was was boring and a cliche Hollywood action movie trope. I also that by making him a loving and responsible husband and father was not what made Hawkeye a cool and semi popular character in the comics (and apparently not in the movies either with most moviegoers). What made Hawkeye cool and semi popular in the comics was that he was a cocky,arrogant,and sometimes hot headed character who thought that he was the best superhero on any team that he was on. He was essentially the Han Solo of the Avengers. Movie (and Ultimates) Hawkeye is a generic boring action hero with a wife and kids.



And that's your opinion, which I respectfully disagree with.



It made me not give a damn about the movie version of the character at all.
You hit the nail on the head.

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Old 05-17-2015, 08:38 PM   #490
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

I felt that Hawkeye was the one big improvement from Avengers to AoU. He was much better in this film than the first.

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Old 05-17-2015, 09:27 PM   #491
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

Not hard to do though considering he spent most of the first as basically a zombie...

It's quite apparent that Hawkeye getting the spotlight was Whedon's way of "making amends" to Renner for giving his character the shaft in the first movie, something Renner was very vocal about.

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Old 05-17-2015, 09:48 PM   #492
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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Not hard to do though considering he spent most of the first as basically a zombie...

It's quite apparent that Hawkeye getting the spotlight was Whedon's way of "making amends" to Renner for giving his character the shaft in the first movie, something Renner was very vocal about.
Sad thing though, when I think about it, not only did Whedon shaft the Hawkeye character in the first Avengers, when he asked Fiege to keep Hawkeye out of the other phase 2 movies, he shafted him too in that way, preventing him from appearing in something like The Winter Soldier, which could have fleshed out his character a bit more. It's kind of a crappy thing to do to the character and the actor, which is a very talented guy.

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Old 05-17-2015, 09:58 PM   #493
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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Sad thing though, when I think about it, not only did Whedon shaft the Hawkeye character in the first Avengers, when he asked Fiege to keep Hawkeye out of the other phase 2 movies, he shafted him too in that way, preventing him from appearing in something like The Winter Soldier, which could have fleshed out his character a bit more. It's kind of a crappy thing to do to the character and the actor, which is a very talented guy.
I think Whedon could walk on water at this point and you'd ***** about him not being able to swim.

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Old 05-17-2015, 10:17 PM   #494
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I think Whedon could walk on water at this point and you'd ***** about him not being able to swim.
Oh please, I gave him credit for the first Avengers, but I really think he got a very big head the second time around and made some obvious mistakes about it. But, I guess it's your fault you saw him as this heavenly being, I on the other hand, never did, and never will and have no problem with seeing his faults.

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Old 05-17-2015, 11:19 PM   #495
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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Oh please, I gave him credit for the first Avengers, but I really think he got a very big head the second time around and made some obvious mistakes about it. But, I guess it's your fault you saw him as this heavenly being, I on the other hand, never did, and never will and have no problem with seeing his faults.
You know what Hawkeye's role in Winter Soldier was gonna be?

He was going to point his bow and arrow at Captain America as Shield was chasing him and then let him go.

Yep. That's it.

Yes. Whedon really screwed that up, not letting him have that really substantial role of being the guy who aims his bow and arrow at Captain America and then is never seen in the movie again! Damn Whedon for depriving us of such a substantial role just so he could flesh out his life in an Avengers movie! I will never forgive him for this!

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Old 05-18-2015, 07:31 AM   #496
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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Sad thing though, when I think about it, not only did Whedon shaft the Hawkeye character in the first Avengers, when he asked Fiege to keep Hawkeye out of the other phase 2 movies, he shafted him too in that way, preventing him from appearing in something like The Winter Soldier, which could have fleshed out his character a bit more. It's kind of a crappy thing to do to the character and the actor, which is a very talented guy.
\
As far as I'm aware, he didn't specifically say that he wanted Hawkeye kept out of Phase 2, the quote from Feige is that he wanted him to have 'less exposure' (probably due to wanting to delve into his backstory/reveal his family in AOU) - so he could have been in them, but he likely wouldn't have gotten much development if he had.

There were plans to have Hawkeye in The Winter Soldier (as has been mentioned - he was going to be chasing Cap and give him the info that his SHIELD uniform had a tracker in it and that he needed to ditch it) but the quote from the Russos makes it seem like the reason it didn't make it was simply due to a scheduling conflict with Renner (not Whedon saying he couldn't be in the film).

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Old 05-18-2015, 07:32 AM   #497
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I never said it was "blasphemy". I said it was was boring and a cliche Hollywood action movie trope. I also that by making him a loving and responsible husband and father was not what made Hawkeye a cool and semi popular character in the comics (and apparently not in the movies either with most moviegoers). What made Hawkeye cool and semi popular in the comics was that he was a cocky,arrogant,and sometimes hot headed character who thought that he was the best superhero on any team that he was on. He was essentially the Han Solo of the Avengers. Movie (and Ultimates) Hawkeye is a generic boring action hero with a wife and kids.

It made me not give a damn about the movie version of the character at all.
This was my main problem with the whole plot. It has nothing to do with not wanting a superhero to have a family, and everything to do with the fact that Hawkeye is my favourite character, and he was barely recognizable. He had a few great moments in the film where he actually felt like Clint Barton, but Ultimates Hawkeye is not Hawkeye to me, so I was severely disappointed.

I was also really bothered by the whole situation, tbh. They make it quite clear that his family is kept secret from everyone, so where is their support network when he's gone? People make the parallel between this and a military family, but military families still have friends and family around to help and support them while the spouse is away. This didn't feel like that. This felt like his family does nothing but wait for him. the Avengers landed a jet in their backyard without calling ahead, so clearly there was no chance that any friends or neighbours could be visiting, nor close enough to see it. They have nothing but him, and live in complete isolation while he's off fighting without an extraction plan, and partying with his team. It just really didn't sit well with me, it seems really unfair and unhealthy for his family.

Beyond that, their only purpose is to be a plot device. People say they were added to flesh out Clint's character, but to me it feels more like their purpose was to give the rest of the team something to think about, and to act as a red herring so that the audience would believe Clint was going to die. Whedon even said that he really enjoyed planting all those seeds. The whole thing felt very contrived to me.

I respect that a lot of people loved this plot twist, and I hope that they will respect the fact that others have legitimate reasons for hating it, because I've seen a lot of people getting attacked for daring to say they didn't like it (not necessarily here but everywhere).

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Old 05-19-2015, 09:35 AM   #498
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This was my main problem with the whole plot. It has nothing to do with not wanting a superhero to have a family, and everything to do with the fact that Hawkeye is my favourite character, and he was barely recognizable. He had a few great moments in the film where he actually felt like Clint Barton, but Ultimates Hawkeye is not Hawkeye to me, so I was severely disappointed.

I was also really bothered by the whole situation, tbh. They make it quite clear that his family is kept secret from everyone, so where is their support network when he's gone? People make the parallel between this and a military family, but military families still have friends and family around to help and support them while the spouse is away. This didn't feel like that. This felt like his family does nothing but wait for him. the Avengers landed a jet in their backyard without calling ahead, so clearly there was no chance that any friends or neighbours could be visiting, nor close enough to see it. They have nothing but him, and live in complete isolation while he's off fighting without an extraction plan, and partying with his team. It just really didn't sit well with me, it seems really unfair and unhealthy for his family.

Beyond that, their only purpose is to be a plot device. People say they were added to flesh out Clint's character, but to me it feels more like their purpose was to give the rest of the team something to think about, and to act as a red herring so that the audience would believe Clint was going to die. Whedon even said that he really enjoyed planting all those seeds. The whole thing felt very contrived to me.

I respect that a lot of people loved this plot twist, and I hope that they will respect the fact that others have legitimate reasons for hating it, because I've seen a lot of people getting attacked for daring to say they didn't like it (not necessarily here but everywhere).
Hawkeye is my favourite character (DC and Marvel) and I'll take what I can get.

He was fantastic in this movie.

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Old 05-21-2015, 07:41 PM   #499
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

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Beyond that, their only purpose is to be a plot device. People say they were added to flesh out Clint's character, but to me it feels more like their purpose was to give the rest of the team something to think about, and to act as a red herring so that the audience would believe Clint was going to die. Whedon even said that he really enjoyed planting all those seeds. The whole thing felt very contrived to me.
It didn't work for me. It was so heavy-handed that it was obviously a red herring. They might as well have had him say he was retiring after this one last job.

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Old 09-14-2016, 06:12 AM   #500
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Default Re: "Because boomerangs" the Hawkeye Thread

This is pretty cool and relevant to the character IMO


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

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