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Old 07-19-2018, 05:54 AM   #901
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

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And why would they have expected TLJ do more than 1.3 billion, exactly? Generally SW flicks don't - TFA was a planets-aligning white whale one-off. AotC only did 649 mil, RotS did 848 mil. Yeah, you've gotta adjust that for inflation, but seems to me even when doing that they're probably not comparatively more successful movies.

EpI did megabucks after having no Star Wars for 15 years. TFA did even more megabucks after no Star Wars for 10, in addition the Big Three back for the first time. Second movies do less. Empire did less.

They knew this. 1.3 billion is still one enormous honkin' blockbuster.
You've got to look at how the film actually performed and not just the total. Star Wars films have traditionally had really good repeat business. TLJ didn't play the same way. On the surface $1.3 billion is a lot, but you've got to look at how it played also. It opened lower in just about every major market, and not just by a few hundred thousand, in some places it was a significant difference.

If you look at the first two Avengers movies there's very little difference in terms of how they performed. AoU came up about $100m short of the first, but overall both films played relatively similar. There really was no logical reason for TLJ to have not have played similarly to TFA unless it was already getting bad WOM that opening weekend. It wasn't a case of TLJ coming off the back of a bad movie, both TFA and RO were universally loved and the hype coming into the movie was off the charts, so the only logical conclusion you can draw from then for the drop in box office on opening weekend globally is that word of mouth started to kick in and it wasn't super positive. Those people who go 5 or 6 times went once or twice instead.

See, the discussion requires far more nuance than simply pointing to the final gross. It's not necessarily the final total that's the concern here, it's how it got there that has to be considered also.

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Old 07-19-2018, 06:05 AM   #902
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Honestly, I'm not too worried about the SW brand. The idea that it was teflon has only been around since TFA. Nobody was saying that during the prequel era. Aside from PM, none of the prequels made insane amounts of money, and the overall reception was more resoundingly negative. With TLJ, we just have a group, that admittedly, is not a small group, but it certainly isn't as massive as they would try to paint themselves, that has the ability to be more vocal then they could have during the prequel days due to advancements in social media.

Star Wars is going to be fine. It just isn't guaranteed to make insane amounts of money each time it puts something out.

And honestly, I think that's a good thing. I personally find all the films they've released (sans Solo, which I haven't seen yet) to be of similar quality. And that many of the things I see people ripping in one, to be present in all their newer films. I just find all the new films to be pretty good, but I also felt that if they didn't get some push back from the audience, that Lucas Film wouldn't feel the need to address what I saw as some issues in each new film.

It's unfortunate that this pushback seemed to gain strength with TLJ, which I actually find to be the best of the newer films, but not perfect either. Still, if it gets Lucas Film to examine their material a bit more and maybe be less haphazard in their planning, it may lead them to increase quality.

While I like TLJ, the one complaint I find to be valid is how TLJ and TFA do have a bit of a disconnect between them. And not just because it's two different directors, I think it's because Lucas Film clearly didn't have a defined plan for this new trilogy. And in a world where Marvel has massively upped the shared universe game, Lucas Film is going to need to up their game too.

Hopefully that starts to happen.
The problem is Lucasfilm themselves don't seem to have a coherent plan for Star Wars. In a way this trilogy has been ruined by virtue of there being no-one in charge with a real idea of where they want to take Star Wars. Say what you will about the prequels, but they're at least one persons vision, and even though the quality varies you can tell it's from the mind of the same person. Same with the OT, Lucas may have only done film one but the other two films stay pretty close to his own style. This trilogy is scattered, and these solo film plans poorly thought out. You can't make a good product if you don't plan things. Kennedy may very well be a top notch producer, but it's clear she's hasn't got the creative skills to map out an overarching narrative for this franchise.

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Old 07-19-2018, 08:08 AM   #903
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

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The problem is Lucasfilm themselves don't seem to have a coherent plan for Star Wars. In a way this trilogy has been ruined by virtue of there being no-one in charge with a real idea of where they want to take Star Wars. Say what you will about the prequels, but they're at least one persons vision, and even though the quality varies you can tell it's from the mind of the same person. Same with the OT, Lucas may have only done film one but the other two films stay pretty close to his own style. This trilogy is scattered, and these solo film plans poorly thought out. You can't make a good product if you don't plan things. Kennedy may very well be a top notch producer, but it's clear she's hasn't got the creative skills to map out an overarching narrative for this franchise.
Hear hear

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Old 07-19-2018, 08:55 AM   #904
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But surely that applies to AotC & RotC then, right? Even Empire to a certain extent. I'd argue it's still in the ballpark of what a regular major main-series SW flick is expected to pull in.

Anyone know what AotC & RotS's 649 and 848 million is now adjusted for inflation? Empire did 538, and given the sheer time gap I can imagine that working out to more than 1.3 billion in today's money, but AotC & RotC only a little 15 years ago? I'd be surprised if that's more than TLJ did.
Empire did not do $538 million lol. Magnar has the numbers, but that number is all releases(including the 1997 re-release) and what not wrapped into one overall number. If going by the $538m and $290m domestic its like $900 million domestic adjusted.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm #12.

Empire did like $209 million unadjusted in its initial run iirc(click on the releases tab on Box Office Mojo), but that may have a release or two wrapped into that number. Solo did $212 million domestic, almost exactly 38 years later.


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Old 07-19-2018, 11:36 AM   #905
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

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The problem is Lucasfilm themselves don't seem to have a coherent plan for Star Wars. In a way this trilogy has been ruined by virtue of there being no-one in charge with a real idea of where they want to take Star Wars. Say what you will about the prequels, but they're at least one persons vision, and even though the quality varies you can tell it's from the mind of the same person. Same with the OT, Lucas may have only done film one but the other two films stay pretty close to his own style. This trilogy is scattered, and these solo film plans poorly thought out. You can't make a good product if you don't plan things. Kennedy may very well be a top notch producer, but it's clear she's hasn't got the creative skills to map out an overarching narrative for this franchise.
As someone who does really enjoy TLJ, I would agree with this. The prequels and this trilogy are in many ways two halves of the same coin. With the prequels you had a clear path for where the trilogy was going to go, the execution was just very poor.

With these films, the final product overall tends to be high quality. The weakest of the new films (again, I haven't seen Solo yet, so I can't comment on that) in my opinion is probably Rogue 1, but it's still very close in quality to the other films. They're all well made, but it's clear there's no unifying vision of path. As much as I enjoyed Johnson subverting a lot of expectations in TLJ, some of the subversions seemed a bit out of place. Not because they were bad ideas, but because it didn't seem that supported by what had been set up before hand. Granted, part of that problem may lie with JJ's desire to have TONS of mystery hooks at the beginning of his stories...to the point that I think he starts a story a little too open, and usually has trouble closing some of those questions later.

But even then, that's not JJ's fault, because if you had a Feige like figure that was overseeing the films and had one creative vision in mind, that would have been tempered in the first film. So, as someone who really enjoyed TLJ, I would definitely agree that you can really sense that Lucasfilm didn't have a plan for this new trilogy, and that's starting to hurt them.

And Iceman- I think where we differ is that I didn't feel like the depiction of any of the characters in TLJ was a betrayal in any way. I expected Luke to be in some form of exile, because it was the only story option that made any logical sense to me going off TFA. Now, I would have preferred how some elements of this exile where handled to be done a bit differently- but mostly small things. Cut the milking scene and add the moment of LUke quietly grieving Han, maybe not toss the saber and have him just drop it at Rey's feet, etc.

The only major change I would have liked is to not have Luke die. The old mentor dying so the hero can advance is an expected trope at this point, and I would have been very interested to see Luke have to come back to the world and face the people he had abandoned for so long. Imagine having to see him deal with the sense of hurt and betrayal his former allies would feel for him going awol on them. And having Rey there to help him navigate that. I think it would have allowed for a lot of great character moments all around.

That said, I still found Luke's arc to be a satisfying one as it was depicted. Would I have preferred more Luke? Of course, but what I got I still enjoyed.

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Old 07-19-2018, 01:15 PM   #906
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

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Han Solo is a popular character, I agree. So is Iron Man. Do you think Marvel expects Avengers money if they made an Iron Man 4? All signs of past performance would point to no as well. Same for Solo. But the difference is Solo was effectively closer to being a hypothetical Iron Man movie that came like 30 years too late, was a prequel explaining what came before IM1, and didn't have RDJ. Solo had more going against it than recent history with TLJ. It's a movie no one wanted in the first place, but they made it anyway.

Star Wars Episode __ = Avengers
____ A Star Wars Story = Solo movie
I would guess they expect Iron Man 3 money which was quite high. They wouldnt expect Antman money.

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Old 07-19-2018, 05:46 PM   #907
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

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To Infinity: (posting from mobile - can’t go back and quote now!)

I was very much up for this new age of SW movies with a new film every year, but TLJ deflated my hype for IX the first time I saw it, even though I enjoyed many parts of it. And my honest experience amongst friends and colleagues and anyone not online is that they liked it much less than what I see online where there is also considerable support for it mixed in with the negative. Of course it’s just one experience (so won’t be relevant to others), but it’s mine which is obviously the only one I know the truth behind. So that aspect does confuse me when it is so different to what I hear.

You can look at my posts in the build up to TLJ to see that I was very excited for this and there’s nothing anti-SW about me. I think if the MCU put in a twist of one of the main heroes Cap/Stark/Thor being involved in a huge betrayal in IW, my Avengers 4 and MCU hype would also be instantly deflated to some considerable extent, no matter how great the film might have been. Sometimes we (me I guess) aren’t looking for great pieces of cinema, sometimes we just want our heroes, and particularly our childhood heroes, to come good. SW is the most personal of franchises and with all the benefits that come with that, there is a burden too. And to ignore that franchise-specific burden/obligation and merely to aim to produce great films isn’t enough for many.
Agree with a lot of this. Its been my experience also that everyone I know in real life aren’t big fans of TLJ, in fact many outright dislike it. I have only seen people who love it online.

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Old 07-19-2018, 06:00 PM   #908
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

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Agree with a lot of this. Its been my experience also that everyone I know in real life aren’t big fans of TLJ, in fact many outright dislike it. I have only seen people who love it online.
And ironically most of my friends I talk to in person really enjoyed it. Though I did have one or two that weren't huge fans.

It's more likely that we just tend to hang out with people who share similar sensibilities to us, hence why we see our own opinions reflected back at us.

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Old 07-19-2018, 08:52 PM   #909
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Empire did not do $538 million lol. Magnar has the numbers, but that number is all releases(including the 1997 re-release) and what not wrapped into one overall number. If going by the $538m and $290m domestic its like $900 million domestic adjusted.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm #12.

Empire did like $209 million unadjusted in its initial run iirc(click on the releases tab on Box Office Mojo), but that may have a release or two wrapped into that number. Solo did $212 million domestic, almost exactly 38 years later.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/column...star-wars-40th
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/column...ikes-back-35th
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/column...-the-jedi-35th


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Old 07-20-2018, 07:47 AM   #910
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Seems from those Magnar numbers I'm right and you're wrong, Last. 534 worldwide, total, gross, all said and done including the Special Edition in '97. $4 million less than the figure I found on google.

Admittedly, I have no idea what that is adjusted for inflation, taking into consideration 1980 and whatever additional they made in 1997. But Empire hardly tmade $900 at the time, by any definition or parameters.

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Old 07-20-2018, 11:51 AM   #911
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Well according to Wiki the film made (in the US and Canada) $181,379,640 during its first run. I used a CPI calculator and found that:

$181,379,640.00 in 1980 = $554,680,510.97

Worldwide figures arent listed for that year on wiki so I cant figure that out. But by the end of 1982 after re-release it was at $450 million worldwide according to wiki. (which cites Variety)

So lets use that number, we can stipulate it isnt perfect. To offset that I will use the CPI for 1982 instead of 1980 because it is lower. (205.8% in 1980 and 161.1% in 1982) According to the calculator:

$450,000,000 = $1,175,078,238.34

In reality that number would be higher because the bulk of the money would have been made in 1980.

Now I am not a math guy, and I am sure I messed this up somehow but from my rudimentary understanding of mathematics and my decent understanding of economics this seems to be the correct way to calculate it. If we had the WW numbers for 1980 it would probably push the number quite a bit higher. For example:

If you took the 1981 % (177.2%) the adjusted total would be $1,247,470,297.03.
If you did the whole thing at the 1980 % it would be $1,376,153,519.42

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Old 07-20-2018, 07:18 PM   #912
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

You can’t really use WW or even domestic numbers for older movies for comparison. The market is much bigger/wider, the number of theaters has increased immensely, and you now have 3D and IMAX.

It’s hard to compare, even adjusted for inflation.


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Old 07-21-2018, 12:23 AM   #913
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Seems from those Magnar numbers I'm right and you're wrong, Last. 534 worldwide, total, gross, all said and done including the Special Edition in '97. $4 million less than the figure I found on google.
Correct, but my point was that it didn't make that back in its initial run. That you have to include the Spec Edition and what not to get there. And i'm not sure what the heck it made in foreign box office in its initial run, and Magnar may not even have that number. We just know where it ended up in 1997.

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Admittedly, I have no idea what that is adjusted for inflation, taking into consideration 1980 and whatever additional they made in 1997. But Empire hardly tmade $900 at the time, by any definition or parameters.
No idea, most calculators and lists off BoxOfficeMojo usually adjust domestically, and usually bake the numbers by including every re-release.

As such $900m is the number its given on that list, which as you say is ridiculous.

If SW: ANH were to release in theaters just once more, I have money it would 'magically' pass GWTW due to every dollar being graded as if it were made in 1977.

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Old 08-07-2018, 05:34 PM   #914
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It wasn't a case of TLJ coming off the back of a bad movie, both TFA and RO were universally loved and the hype coming into the movie was off the charts
TFA and RO were universally loved? That wasn't my anecdotal experience at all.

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I would have been very interested to see Luke have to come back to the world and face the people he had abandoned for so long. Imagine having to see him deal with the sense of hurt and betrayal his former allies would feel for him going awol on them.
I thought that was all handled quite well with the 2 scenes they did show.

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Old 08-10-2018, 07:49 PM   #915
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I' seeing videos of folks upset because a lot of the scenes brought up questions that fans never thought of before. Bad questions. Like if you can use ships for light speed to attack the empire why not just us r2 units before to do kamakazi missions to crash into the death stars. Why not just run into Vaders ship with light speed? I was like wait...yeah...it just makes you question the entire SW history.

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Old 08-10-2018, 09:47 PM   #916
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I' seeing videos of folks upset because a lot of the scenes brought up questions that fans never thought of before. Bad questions. Like if you can use ships for light speed to attack the empire why not just us r2 units before to do kamakazi missions to crash into the death stars. Why not just run into Vaders ship with light speed? I was like wait...yeah...it just makes you question the entire SW history.
In the original movies pilots pulled before hitting shields because, presumably, hitting a shield would blow up your ship while not damaging the shielded one. Rian just decided to throw that away because he thought it would be a cool moment and it's hard to do good writing.

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Old 08-10-2018, 09:48 PM   #917
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In the original movies pilots pulled before hitting shields because, presumably, hitting a shield would blow up your ship while not damaging the shielded one. Rian just decided to throw that away because he thought it would be a cool moment and it's hard to do good writing.
When in the original movies was that ever stated?

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Old 08-16-2018, 09:46 AM   #918
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When in the original movies was that ever stated?
Actually in TFA didn't they say the only way to penetrate the shields around the star killer was to approach at light speed?

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Old 08-16-2018, 09:48 AM   #919
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I'd have to watch it again. I cannot remember, LOL

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Old 08-16-2018, 09:50 AM   #920
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Han said something about a fractional refresh rate and the only way to beat it was light speed. That's how the Falcon penetrated, and why it crash landed.

Of course this only furthers the "why didn't they just kamikaze the droids at light speed" arguments. . . .

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Old 08-16-2018, 09:51 AM   #921
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I do recall that scene. Yes, you're correct.

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Old 08-16-2018, 09:54 AM   #922
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Also that means that random_havoc is wrong. Rian didn't throw out the shields concept. JJ changed it first. Admiral purple hair basically just did what Han did. Jumped to light speed. Beat the refresh rate and crashed through the ships.

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Old 08-17-2018, 01:45 PM   #923
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Of course this only furthers the "why didn't they just kamikaze the droids at light speed" arguments. . . .
Presumably because it is frowned upon. Why doesn't the US just nuke everyone? If you're the Rebels and you open this can of worms the much better funded, much more ruthless Empire would have made it game over. There's also the optics of it -- hard to be the good guys if you engage in tactics that are considered unseemly. EDIT: see the encyclopedia entry for one Gerrera, Saw.

In regards to the shields in the OT I think the reference is when the Rebels notice the shields are still up on the Death Star and Ackbar starts ordering all ships to "pull up" (but lets not question why they talk and act like WW2 pilots in a gravity well -- just keep focusing on that evil Rian).

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Old 08-17-2018, 08:03 PM   #924
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Calling Rey a Mary Sue would imply that she has no flaws, but I don't think that's true. She denies the call of the force in TFA and gets herself captured, and her eventual victory over Kylo has more to do with Kylo being heavily injured and manic than her being definitively stronger than him. In TLJ she fails in completing Luke's training, fails to bring him back to the fight (he eventually comes around because of Yoda), and resolutely fails in redeeming Kylo. It's obvious she's very powerful with the force and very skilled at a lot of things other characters are not, but she's not perfect. She has definable flaws. Her reluctance/fear to accept her independent role as hero is her Achilles heel, just as Luke's was his ambition in the OT.
Wow I never noticed but yeah she does have a lot of flaws. Not to mention she is quick to anger ie how she attacked Finn just because BB-8 accused him of stealing Poe's jacket.

As for Rey's super advanced power levels after less than a week of training here is the reasoning behind her affluent connection with the Force: she and Kylo formed a Force Bond, the Star Wars equilivant to a Vulcan mind meld. Sorry if this has already been covered but I don't want to wade through 20 some pages on the off chance it has.

Kylo and Rey are modeled after two previously based characters from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (or KotOR, for short), a Star Wars RPG released in the summer of 2003.* Kylo*Ren is based on**Darth*Revan*and Ray is modeled after Bastila* Shan.* Ben and*Revan*both share the same history note for note: Both come from a famous family and bear the weight of upholding their family legacy. Both are impatient and lash out violently. Most importantly they both look exactly alike:**Revan*is described as being pale skinned, with brown eyes and dark brown hair that he wore at shoulder/near-shoulder length for most of his life. I don’t want to sound conspiratorial here, but hmmm that fits Adam Driver to*T. And Kylo's outfit is an exact replica of his, as well.* Rey's personality isn't like Bastilia's but they both use similar weapons:* Rey*uses a staff whereas* Bastilla's weapon of choice is*a double edge saber.*

Now for their history* I am going to*paraphrase an extremely condensed version from an article a mate of mine, named Ohtze, wrote called "My One and Only, or why Force Bonds are so important: The similarities between*Revan/Kylo and Bastila/Rey (and why this comparison was intentional)"; they started out as enemies.* Bastila was tasked with taking*Revan*down; accompanied by a Jedi Strike force, she lured*Revan*to the Outer Rim of the Galaxy, where they attacked.**Revan, already at a disadvantage, was hit by Malak’s flagship, and the ensuing chaos killed all the Jedi except Bastila.*Revan*was critically injured.*Bastila saved*Revan, creating a Force Bond with him.* Like their counterparts Rey and Rylo have started out as adversaries. In the interrogation scene when Ben tried to read Rey's mind and she blocked it*is when there*ForceBond formed.**Force Bonds can occur when an already Force Sensitive individual is suddenly exposed to the Force by an extremely powerful user of it, and this plays directly into Kylo and Rey’s dynamic. This sudden forcing of a ForceBond is why I think they already have one going on.* The very first time Rey is fully, unequivocally exposed to the Force is through Kylo rifling through her mind.* If Rey is already Force Sensitive, and mentally vulnerable (not in her ability to fight back, but in the subtext of it – the loneliness, and insecurities she keeps buried), this is going to have a huge predetermining affect on who she gets attached to, on every level and Rey rifling through his own mind might have done that to Kylo as well.

So what’s a Force Bond, exactly? At its most basic, it was a link through which a pair of Force-Sensitive individuals could influence each other. Through this bond, they could communicate their feelings, thoughts and images of what they were seeing across incalculable distances. They could also relay instructions, rifle through each others’ memories, and draw on each others’ strengths/grant each other greater coordination in battle by synchronizing their emotions. Force Bonds were sometimes called Force Chains, especially when they were pushed upon one person by another (in the case of*Darth*Traya), which I’ll get into in just a bit. During the New Jedi Order, a technique called Force Meld also arose, which is based off this concept. While both Jedi and Sith could form Force Bonds/Force Chains, they mostly happened among the Sith, or Jedi/Sith combinations. When*Revan*was studying Bonding before the Mandalorian Wars, he theorized the reason for this was because – in order to form a bond – you have to be passionate. You’re basically opening yourself up to the other person, completely, and while the Sith were all for this, the Jedi tended to shy away from it: they considered the risks too great for the payoff. If done correctly, Force Bonds could make you insanely powerful, but they could also make you very, very vulnerable – lethally so. The margin for error is high.
When you’re bonded, you begin to lose your individual sense of self: you start sharing the same thoughts and the same emotions, and you begin to lose track of where one person ends and the other begins.* Everything in the summary above is all her and she is the one who first informed me of the notion.

TL DR;*Rey is like Neo in The Matrix or Rogue from X-Men with Kylo as her source, so all the ones complaining Rey is a "mary sue" and shouldn't be so powerful there is your answer.* She is linked mind and soul*to an already powerful force user (who happens to be Luke Skywalker's nephew and*Darth*Vader's grandson).* So if you have issues with her being so powerful take it up with Kylo who she is siphoning her power from.*

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Old Yesterday, 12:35 PM   #925
MaceB
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Default Re: Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by XStreme Skins View Post

TL DR;*Rey is like Neo in The Matrix or Rogue from X-Men with Kylo as her source, so all the ones complaining Rey is a "mary sue" and shouldn't be so powerful there is your answer.* She is linked mind and soul*to an already powerful force user (who happens to be Luke Skywalker's nephew and*Darth*Vader's grandson).* So if you have issues with her being so powerful take it up with Kylo who she is siphoning her power from.*
Since none of that was remotely explained in the movie, I'll continue to take it up with the creative team. It's not hard to come up with explanations for the TLJ... but I shouldn't have to theorize out-of-the-box ways in which it all makes sense. If the movie doesn't make sense on its own, then it's not doing its job. The movie never described Rey as this sorta-powerful force user who is so strong only because she is siphoning off power from Ren. I see no reason to insert that plot line for the film.. that was Johnson's job.

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