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Old 09-17-2016, 11:14 AM   #26
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You added this just now, so I will address it separately. You say you're not being dogmatic, but then say stuff like this? What the hell, this is probably the most dogmatic thing I have seen anyone actually say on this subject. It's not a debate that WB doesn't understand these characters? Sorry, guess I missed the grand decree from movie Jesus that the debate was ended and your viewpoint is an indisputable fact now lol. If anything, I think you're showing how little you know about the source of these characters and their histories, particularly Superman, with a lot of your arguments.
I'm not being dogmatic in either how the studio is being run nor am I with how characters are interpreted which are separate cases. I don't think there is a factual interpretation of character. That is clear. I know that. If I gave off that impression, that wasn't what I was going for. With Batman there's no right way to do him and there are no rules to say he can't murder people from an artistic standpoint. Yet morally with who the character is, it's a lot less compelling and less interesting to make it like that. Am I right for saying this and is this a fact? No.

But it does nullify the characters because they are a result of a studio where filmmakers fundamentally misunderstand these characters and give us these results. These ideas are coming from these misguided and miscalculated decisions and wrong headed intentions. People can like them, that's fine I'm not saying they can't, it's just it's hard to like them when these interpretations that they like are guided by a system that doesn't seem to like or get superheroes. If you do, then okay. I just don't understand how you can.

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If this was directed at me, I don't come here just to bad mouth the movie, I come here to discuss any new and relevant news. The new and relevant news just so happened to be ****.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:48 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Geoff Johns
"Mistakenly in the past I think the studio has said, 'Oh, DC films are gritty and dark and that's what makes them different.' That couldn't be more wrong. It's a hopeful and optimistic view of life. Even Batman has a glimmer of that in him. If he didn't think he'd make tomorrow better, he'd stop."
This pretty much puts a cap on the "does WB understand these characters or not" debate in my eyes.

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Well...here I am. Sitting here with my commemorative Marvel's Civil War soda container. Glad DC doesn't go in for that product placement nonsense.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:49 AM   #28
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Okay, but ignoring the context for the sake of doing it the 'right' way is basically the definition of dogmatic.
By right way I don't mean as a fact in the artistic sense. Right for the character's belief system for them personally and what's going on in their mind and what makes sense. Again, not a fact.

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I don't know how to be clearer really. You go on about values matching up and all of this, but where are you drawing these values that must be upheld by any means necessary if not the source material? Are you just making up your own set of rules that must be followed?
What values that must be withheld by any means necessary. Where am I saying that? When did I say that in my argument? I have said repeatedly there are no rules for these interpretations. Just what's a better creative decision and what's more fitting for the values of the character and what makes the most sense. What makes the most sense doesn't make it a fact though. You seem to think whenever I say it's the right way or good or better means it's automatically a fact or a rule.

I'm not making up these rules. They are not rules that must be followed. Because again, I never said that they were. I never treat my opinions as fact.

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Superman saved the entire planet.
Yes he did if you really think about it. But when you look at it with how it's presented, it's just how Red Letter Media describes it as Superman punching a bunch of energy while Metropolis is destroyed and its citizens die. Snyder was way too focused on the destruction and the wrong things to make it seem wholly heroic. Oh, and Superman didn't save anybody from this comic book destruction he helped cause. Doesn't Superman in the comics save people during all this destruction?

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Movies aren't real. What you saw on the screen was no more or less real than what you see on a comic page.
Now you're just going around my argument. You're not understanding what I'm saying. I know movies aren't real, but they're about believably in a proper context. It's the filmmaker's job to create that context. Whether it fails or not, there is always a context on screen the audience sees. Obviously these things couldn't happen in real life, but it doesn't mean if you make a comic movie, everything from the page going up on screen will be correct. There's other considerations you need to have. It's different from just drawing a building falling than making a real life building falling. The filmmaker has to think, "Who's in that building? If people are in that building that might mean thousands of people die. That might be too dark. Now I'm dealing with tone. So now I have to think before all this and understand what the movie is about so I can justify these things. Do people evacuate? What do I show exactly then? etc." These are the things a director has to think of. Hell, not just a director, a comic writer and artist too. Hence why that comic booky destruction often doesn't get the same backlash MOS did. If they're exactly the same wouldn't they have after all these years?
They have to focus on the right details to not make those things so noticeable and put the proper things you want at the forefront to be conveyed. Otherwise you get something that wasn't wholly intended and people can go in and insert their own ideas into it willy nilly. Now that's okay too, but there at least has to be a discernible stance and vision by the filmmaker for audiences to follow along the lines of that helps create their own views.

Zack Snyder didn't need to show those little people fly into the air and slam into the ground. Tonally, that's just so extreme for a comic book film, more importantly how it was executed. From what we see of the film it just looks like a celebration in excess. Maybe they tried to create an alien invasion movie where Superman has to stop it, but I don't think they thought everything out. You see buildings falling like it's no big deal. It was in the execution. There was no regard for it. And the worst thing is, NONE of this is addressed. If you are going to show stuff like and this will be your tone and context then okay. But for a Superman film, you'd think you have to address it. Metropolis looks back to normal by the end and Superman is a creepy man. Which is pretty indicative that these weren't intentional creative decisions. I don't think Snyder meant to create controversy out of a Superman movie to the point where they were doubling down on making up for it in BVS. The man doesn't seem to critically think. He just copy and pastes and likes superficial ideas and deconstructs because it seems complex but he doesn't understand what deconstruction actually entails.

Snyder described BVS's reception as "whoosh!" going right over his head. The man has no ****ing idea what his decisions are actually doing. And not in the healthy artistic way where there's two very good opposing view points and both have their merit in debate. This isn't like Kubrick's Shining and King's Shining.

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If this was directed at me, I don't come here just to bad mouth the movie, I come here to discuss any new and relevant news. The new and relevant news just so happened to be ****.

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Old 09-17-2016, 03:58 PM   #29
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Unpopular opinion: disliking "different interpretations" of beloved characters for not acting like they've done for decades is not close-mindedness or having unfair expectations. If anything, it's the most natural response.

But seriously, between Batman v Superman and The Killing Joke, this has been a pretty awful year for big-screen Batman. Let's hope 2017 will be a bit kinder to him.

Unpopular opinion #2: I'm more excited for Lego Batman than I am for Justice League.

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Old 09-17-2016, 05:48 PM   #30
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Unpopular opinion: disliking "different interpretations" of beloved characters for not acting like they've done for decades is not close-mindedness or having unfair expectations. If anything, it's the most natural response.
Thaaaank you. There are good reasons why people are upset about these changes. You're not necessarily being dogmatic. I'm not just gonna sit here and accept bad changes to source material and act like it's okay and deem it "a different interpretation," or "It's subjective." Where the hell does the arguments end then? Where are the distinctions for what's good and bad ideas? I'm not saying you can't like them or it's some atrocity for you to or that I'm right that you like them, but there should be an allowance to call out bad ideas. Otherwise you keep getting WB comic book movies.

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If this was directed at me, I don't come here just to bad mouth the movie, I come here to discuss any new and relevant news. The new and relevant news just so happened to be ****.

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Old 09-17-2016, 05:50 PM   #31
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I still think it makes you the film fan equivalent of a GoP suppourter though.

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Old 09-17-2016, 11:07 PM   #32
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I still think it makes you the film fan equivalent of a GoP suppourter though.
What do you mean? Like how I'm a supporter of pre-existing established material makes me like a political conservative? That would be a false equivalency.

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If this was directed at me, I don't come here just to bad mouth the movie, I come here to discuss any new and relevant news. The new and relevant news just so happened to be ****.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:26 PM   #33
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DOGMATIC!

Sorry, just wanting to fit in.

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Old 09-17-2016, 11:47 PM   #34
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What do you mean? Like how I'm a supporter of pre-existing established material makes me like a political conservative? That would be a false equivalency.
It's not false. I'm calling out an extremism, I just happened to compare it to one side, when the other fits just as easily. Still, I've been reading the source material for over 20 years and I don't recall ever appointing you the person who decides what a good or bad alteration to the source material is. It's bad in your opinion (and yes, the opinion of many others) and that's completely and utterly cool, but it's not cool to impose your perception on how the material should be handled over those who do like it. Where do the arguments end? They don't, but they don't need to happen, there's literally hundreds of adaptations an interpretations of these characters out there, just because one isn't for you, doesn't mean you can't move on to others. Where are the distinctions for what's good and bad ideas? Everyone is completely capable of deciding that for themselves.

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Old 09-18-2016, 02:42 AM   #35
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I see both sides.

A film maker adapting something should still be allowed freedom. They should still be allowed to bring their own ideas to the table.

But... if you're adapting a character with pre-established history or characteristics... you gotta stay true to the ESSENCE. Otherwise, why adapt the character? Create a new one.

In the case of the Joker and his relationship with Harley? I think a lot of the core attributes remained. The tattoos and Cartel inspired look are superficial elements. But they also paint a bigger picture that fits the character. Joker is a total narcissist who likes to put on a show. In the 21st century what better way to show off than to be dripping in bling, draped in Versace and driving ridiculous hyper cars? I bet he's got 10 million followers on instagram. He's on TV shows about most powerful criminals in the world.

All this fits the Joker as a character. I think this whole 21st century rock God "Don of all Dons" concept is really cool for Joker. It's a shame that he wasn't saved for the Batman solo really. With better material and an actual chance to see Joker vs Batman with the in universe history, I think more people would've been accepting of this portrayal.

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Old 09-18-2016, 07:55 AM   #36
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It's not false. I'm calling out an extremism, I just happened to compare it to one side, when the other fits just as easily. Still, I've been reading the source material for over 20 years and I don't recall ever appointing you the person who decides what a good or bad alteration to the source material is. It's bad in your opinion (and yes, the opinion of many others) and that's completely and utterly cool, but it's not cool to impose your perception on how the material should be handled over those who do like it. Where do the arguments end? They don't, but they don't need to happen, there's literally hundreds of adaptations an interpretations of these characters out there, just because one isn't for you, doesn't mean you can't move on to others. Where are the distinctions for what's good and bad ideas? Everyone is completely capable of deciding that for themselves.
I'm with you . There are tons of variations in the comics over the years which are very different from each other. Especially characters that have been published over 1/2 a century. IMO there have been far more objectionable interpretations of characters in the comics themselves than anything we've seen on the screen.

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Old 09-18-2016, 12:04 PM   #37
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It's not false. I'm calling out an extremism, I just happened to compare it to one side, when the other fits just as easily. Still, I've been reading the source material for over 20 years and I don't recall ever appointing you the person who decides what a good or bad alteration to the source material is. It's bad in your opinion (and yes, the opinion of many others) and that's completely and utterly cool, but it's not cool to impose your perception on how the material should be handled over those who do like it. Where do the arguments end? They don't, but they don't need to happen, there's literally hundreds of adaptations an interpretations of these characters out there, just because one isn't for you, doesn't mean you can't move on to others. Where are the distinctions for what's good and bad ideas? Everyone is completely capable of deciding that for themselves.
I'm not pretending to be the person who decides what a good or bad alteration is or imposing anything. When did I ever give that off? Please, I ask anyone here who disagrees with me who thinks I have, show me in my previous posts where I have and I am more than happy to answer for you. I'm pretty sure I know what I mean when I write. Sometimes I can get inarticulate and inconcise. but I have never, ever implied or said when I think something is a bad idea, it means I think it's a fact. Because I don't always say, "In my opinion" whenever I state a view? Everything I say is my opinion. That's something I trust for everybody to figure out for themselves.

I'm not disputing the source material and people's possession of these characters on the page. Never have. Has anyone actually been paying attention to what I've been saying??? It seems like people are getting stuff mixed up, cherry picking points and putting your own prejudices on it. Come the **** on.

My arguments are on the grounds of WB's decisions. And yes, I do dispute opinions of posters of those decisions when they're built on a terrible foundation. And that is actually okay. God forbid. It's harder to see an interpretation as good when everything has just been bad so far. And I know I'm not alone here. It's just odd how people suddenly spring up to defend these new creative choices when the choices go against what's been working for them for so many years in the comics and when they are in bad movies, don't be surprised you have a harder argument on your part to defend the decisions of this studio. And no, the "it's just my opinion" doesn't cut it. That's the easy way out.

(What follows isn't addressed to you specifically)

You can't just say, "Well it's just your opinion," when there's a bad idea existing. That's how studio executives operate when there is a bad idea that they have and they want it. That is true. There are such things as bad ideas. If every idea is a good one on the ground of it being your opinion, then we aren't able to field out bad ideas and call them out. Hence why WB keeps making these movies. You can like them, that's fine, but to think this is a studio who knows and understands and loves these characters and makes great movies as a result of that and that everything is okay, you are very, very, very wrong. Or delusional. Or seeing what you want to see.

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If this was directed at me, I don't come here just to bad mouth the movie, I come here to discuss any new and relevant news. The new and relevant news just so happened to be ****.

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Old 09-18-2016, 12:14 PM   #38
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I don't give a **** about anything promoting Justice League. At this point, I don't even want to see the movie.

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Old 09-18-2016, 12:28 PM   #39
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DC already dropped the ball with their cinematic universe. It was ****ed up straight out of the gate. Anything now is being built on an unsound foundation.

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Old 09-18-2016, 12:47 PM   #40
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I don't mind changes to the source whether it be a comic, video game, book etc. but you gotta stay true to the character whatever it may be. Or at least you need to do that with the main characters. Smaller and side characters it's easier to get away with but I dont see any point in adapting a character, especially a well known one.

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Unpopular opinion: disliking "different interpretations" of beloved characters for not acting like they've done for decades is not close-mindedness or having unfair expectations. If anything, it's the most natural response.
Yeah I dont really get this line of thinking that seems to have become more popular (or at least Ive been saying it more).
It's like the defense for whatever movie when people say: "You just have preconceived notions about the character.
I mean of course I do. The character is being adapted from a source material.

With that defense or calling someone closeminded for disliking different interpretations kinda tells me that the person would be fine with whatever they do with the character. Make Deadpool a mute and have Dr Doom look like a crash test dummy

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It's not false. I'm calling out an extremism, I just happened to compare it to one side, when the other fits just as easily. Still, I've been reading the source material for over 20 years and I don't recall ever appointing you the person who decides what a good or bad alteration to the source material is. It's bad in your opinion (and yes, the opinion of many others) and that's completely and utterly cool, but it's not cool to impose your perception on how the material should be handled over those who do like it. Where do the arguments end? They don't, but they don't need to happen, there's literally hundreds of adaptations an interpretations of these characters out there, just because one isn't for you, doesn't mean you can't move on to others. Where are the distinctions for what's good and bad ideas? Everyone is completely capable of deciding that for themselves.
What a silly thing to say.

Jones never said or even implied that he was some authority on the matter. People don't need to say "imo" everytime they want to say their opinion.

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I see both sides.

A film maker adapting something should still be allowed freedom. They should still be allowed to bring their own ideas to the table.

But... if you're adapting a character with pre-established history or characteristics... you gotta stay true to the ESSENCE. Otherwise, why adapt the character? Create a new one.
Exactly.

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I don't give a **** about anything promoting Justice League. At this point, I don't even want to see the movie.
I think JL will be better than the other DCEU movies. I really dont think Ben Affleck will want to star in another divisive movie. I'm sure he has a big hand in the behind the scenes stuff. I also think that after 2 movies getting criticized for being butchered in the editing room, WB won't want to go that route again.

In short: I have more faith, but I'm not holding out for much.

Going off that: I have such little faith in Thor Ragnarok


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Old 09-18-2016, 01:56 PM   #41
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Let's say WW is good, the fourth movie in your cinematic universe was not supposed to be the first good DC comic book film. Especially when Batman and Superman didn't work before. This whole universe is just defunct. It's too late. A Harley spin off? No Suicide Squad sequel announced? A possible Man of Steel 2? Now no Justice League Part 2? I use a question mark because this is all just baffling as hell. Oh, yeah this is the same exact plan when WB came out and announced their slate at a share holders meeting.

Who's ready for CYBORG and AQUAMAN?!

God, WB just loves superheroes. These studios, they just love the idea of a cinematic universe but don't have the first clue as to how and why Marvel is so successful.

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Old 09-18-2016, 02:00 PM   #42
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Theyll switch things up when JL is a success

Flash and Aquaman come out the next year. I'm sure SS2 and JL2 will be announced soon after

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Old 09-18-2016, 02:50 PM   #43
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If JL is a success. It'll make money but no way it's going to be an Avengers type hit like they originally wanted. A JL movie without Superman for most of it and Steppenwolf as the villain.

... hype?

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Old 09-18-2016, 02:56 PM   #44
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If JL is a success. It'll make money but no way it's going to be an Avengers type hit like they originally wanted. A JL movie without Superman for most of it and Steppenwolf as the villain.

... hype?
Well no I dont think it'll be as big as The Avengers. I dont think even another Avengers film will be as big as The Avengers was in 2012.

I think JL will be a success because of the novelty. I'm thinking a billion...yes I said the same thing for BvS but I think it will this will make it.
If it doesn't I dont want to here the "this wasn't meant to make a billion" defense some tried to say for BvS. No way in Hell theyre gonna spend that much on JL and not want it to make $1B

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Old 09-18-2016, 03:01 PM   #45
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If JL is a success. It'll make money but no way it's going to be an Avengers type hit like they originally wanted. A JL movie without Superman for most of it and Steppenwolf as the villain.

... hype?
Assumptions are fun.

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Old 09-18-2016, 03:03 PM   #46
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Well no I dont think it'll be as big as The Avengers. I dont think even another Avengers film will be as big as The Avengers was in 2012.

I think JL will be a success because of the novelty. I'm thinking a billion...yes I said the same thing for BvS but I think it will this will make it.
If it doesn't I dont want to here the "this wasn't meant to make a billion" defense some tried to say for BvS. No way in Hell theyre gonna spend that much on JL and not want it to make $1B
That is true. But that doesn't mean the studios themselves don't want it though. The whole goal of these studios are to make that much money. The most is the best for them. They saw those Avengers dollars and said, "I want that!"

I don't even think the novelty will help it. Audiences now have been exposed to three DC movies that they don't like. Why should they really go to it when they know most likely they'll be let down? Brand recognition is one part of it but the other is good will and high quality. Audiences are savvy enough since 2012 and know that a superhero, no matter the type of concept isn't going to just sell them on it anymore. They need to be assured. Kevin Feige had it right back in '08. The key is if we don't make a good movie now, people won't see the others.

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If this was directed at me, I don't come here just to bad mouth the movie, I come here to discuss any new and relevant news. The new and relevant news just so happened to be ****.
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Old 09-18-2016, 03:13 PM   #47
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Assumptions are fun.
I don't think I'm wrong, mainly because a studio would love nothing more than to have a Batman lead JL and seem to have contempt for the character with the results we've seen. But if I'm wrong... then I'm wrong I guess? Mainly because that part's not a big deal. At this point, this universe can take any little victory it can get. If you guys get a Superman earlier in the film... yay? That'll be the least of your concerns.

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If this was directed at me, I don't come here just to bad mouth the movie, I come here to discuss any new and relevant news. The new and relevant news just so happened to be ****.
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Old 09-18-2016, 03:13 PM   #48
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That is true. But that doesn't mean the studios themselves don't want it though. The whole goal of these studios are to make that much money. The most is the best for them. They saw those Avengers dollars and said, "I want that!"

I don't even think the novelty will help it. Audiences now have been exposed to three DC movies that they don't like. Why should they really go to it when they know most likely they'll be let down? Brand recognition is one part of it but the other is good will and high quality. Audiences are savvy enough since 2012 and know that a superhero, no matter the type of concept isn't going to just sell them on it anymore. They need to be assured. Kevin Feige had it right back in '08. The key is if we don't make a good movie now, people won't see the others.
Well of course every studio wants Avengers money. That's a give-in.

I think novelty will help. I dont see why it wouldnt. It'll help at least people get into the theaters at first. Quality is going to spread the word and keep people coming back. Also JL is opening up to little competition. In terms of action movies, so far it'll have almost a month of free reign in that genre. Also if Wonder Woman is well received that'll definetly help too.

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Old 09-18-2016, 03:29 PM   #49
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Recently watched Warcraft. I don't really know what folks were expecting, but even with its faults, it's still best video game adaptation to date.

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Old 09-18-2016, 03:54 PM   #50
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Well of course every studio wants Avengers money. That's a give-in.

I think novelty will help. I dont see why it wouldnt. It'll help at least people get into the theaters at first. Quality is going to spread the word and keep people coming back. Also JL is opening up to little competition. In terms of action movies, so far it'll have almost a month of free reign in that genre. Also if Wonder Woman is well received that'll definetly help too.
But it's harder to get excited about JL when you're only going because WW was the only good one. You should be excited for everybody. This should be the most exciting thing ever. Oh, it'll open big because the brand and sure, the novelty because hey, it's Justice League. But I don't think it'll open as big or they'll get the OW as large as they wanted due to the ill will now. I know Thor is released earlier in the month, but if that's as good as it seems to be shaping up to be, that could have an effect on it. JL will overtake it, but in a world where Deadpool was more successful than BVS, who knows what will happen that month.

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