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Old 04-13-2017, 12:05 PM   #1
JewishHobbit
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Default Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

"Political Correctness Employees/Characters Killing Marvel Comics"

The title isn't an exact description of the article, but I agree with the article very much. The now obvious liberal slant of Marvel Comics and their creators has definitely destroyed a lot of interest in the comics line for me. And their writers are, in many cases, impossible to follow on Twitter if you're conservative. When a writer mocks your opinions and beliefs, it becomes very difficult to care about their books.

Just thought I'd share the article if anyone cared to read it, but this forum being primarily liberal posters, I doubt many would agree.

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Old 04-13-2017, 12:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Because Marvel has never had a liberal stance ever, ever in it's publishing history.

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Old 04-13-2017, 02:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

That's not the problem. It's the one-sidedness these days. It didn't used to be that way. You could read comics that came from a conservative angle or a Christian angle alongside those from a liberal, Jewish, and atheistic angle. The modern landscape of Marvel writers are overwhelmingly far left liberal and therefore if anything of "importance" is covered it's the liberal aspect of it with no attempt to cover the conservative point of view. And then if a conservative wishes the writers would just stick to comics and stop being political, they're mocked for it. God forbid you try to talk about it on Twitter. You'll have ignorant people like Nick Spencer calling you evil and all their liberal followers mocking and you basically being the liberal steriotype of insults rather than debate.

I first noticed it back when Millar wrote Ultimates 2 and then Parker bringing in Obama in Thunderbolts but was sure to pin the whole employing villains plot on Bush just prior to Obama coming in. No criticisms of Obama over 8 years of Marvel despite there being some cause here and there. But Trump's in office a month or two and there's already a comic absolutely slamming him and those who voted for him.

It's just irritating. Definitely one of those "never meet your idols" sort of thing. I remember back when Dan Slott was a regular here and I thought he was just amazing. Nowadays I can't even bring myself to read anything he's written due to how he insults those who disagree with him politically. Nick Spencer, of course, is the absolute worst.

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Old 04-13-2017, 03:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

o m g this tired conversation.

All comics have been declining for decades.

But it's trendy for unoriginal anti-PCers to blame SJWs as a scapegoat. I'm glad Marvel isn't catering to people who don't want muslim or queer characters in comics.

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Brian Michael Bendis, Portland resident and rabid left-wing writer, announced that he would be writing a “half-black, half-Hispanic Spider-Man” in a relaunch of the reboot version of Marvel they call the Ultimate Universe
LOL the spin and baiting is TOO MUCH

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Old 04-13-2017, 03:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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o m g this tired conversation.

All comics have been declining for decades.

But it's trendy to blame SJWs as a scapegoat. I'm glad Marvel isn't catering to people who don't want to read about muslim character or queer characters.
The fact that you think conservatives don't want comics catering to Muslim and queer characters is ignorant. What I've read of Ms. Marvel seems pretty cool (in Champions) and though Z-list characters, I've loved other characters of that sort like Thunderbird and Omega Sentinel (if I'm remembering their ethnicity correctly). And characters like Hulkling, Wiccan, Prodigy, Northstar, etc. are fantastic.

Yes, I agree that the quality of comics has declined sharply (I blame constant events and the refusal to allow comics to breath without constant shuffle of characters/titles/creative teams), but the SJW excuse is one extra, honest reason for the downfall of quality.

I mean, I know it's not Marvel and I've never read it, but one of the biggest compliments I've heard of that old Green Arrow/Green Lantern comic was the sheer liberal/conservative differences in the pairing. You don't see that in Marvel these days. Nothing is covered from a conservative or christian point of view. Even Christian views from noted religious characters like Nightcrawler are just ignored. He's just a character that might get a "I'll pray for you" line here and there. Not that Conservatism equals Christianity, but you get the idea. Comics would be better and could be better if they were more diverse in ways beyond skin color.

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LOL the spin and baiting is TOO MUCH
In what way? It's accurate. I remember the huge publicity push of there being a Black/Hispanic Spider-Man. I didn't care myself, but the point is accurately stated.

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Old 04-13-2017, 03:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Isn't advocating for Christian characters (aka the vast majority of characters from the majority of its publishing history) the same kind of identity politics that anti-PCers hate about so-called SJW? What else would "conservatives," like the author of the article, want other than to secure the privileged representation of white christians that has been the default. I never said that conservatives don't want diversity, I said anti-PC-ers and anti-SJW-ers, which you equated to "conservatives."

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Old 04-13-2017, 03:30 PM   #7
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

I just think people mix up the issues of creating a sudden "legacy" character with issues about diversity.

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Old 04-13-2017, 03:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Gee......what a fascinating subject.....

I'm off to the MCU DCU, Thor and Infinity War threads.

Bye. For, like, ever...........

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Old 04-13-2017, 03:45 PM   #9
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

I haven't read the whole article, but there's three points in particular you should keep in mind.

First, superheroes are a lot like satire. They attract the kind of writers that are anti-Establishment, or that "punch up" in other words. You won't find as many pro-Trump or pro-Christianity stories because they don't naturally "punch up", they "punch down".

Second, regardless of where you stand, there's no such thing as an apolitical superhero. Practically every major superhero was a response to a major political movement. Superman and Batman were a response to the Great Depression, Wonder Woman a response to feminism, Spider-Man a response to 60s youth culture, X-Men a response to civil rights, the list goes on. Now Marvel and DC like to pretend these characters are apolitical to maximize their profits, but their characters' politics are always lurking on the surface. And it's not always a left-leaning stance either: Iron Man, Flash and Green Lantern are some of the biggest Conservatives in comics. Batman and Cap also range from hardcore leftists to staunch right-wingers.

Third, SJWs are the new scapegoat of the internet. It's become easy to point the finger at them for everything. It's no different this time.

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Old 04-13-2017, 05:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Originally Posted by Mad Ones View Post
Isn't advocating for Christian characters (aka the vast majority of characters from the majority of its publishing history) the same kind of identity politics that anti-PCers hate about so-called SJW? What else would "conservatives," like the author of the article, want other than to secure the privileged representation of white christians that has been the default.
I think you're reading too much into it. For me, I just like when more than one side of things are represented. I think it'd be nice when all people have something that represents them in comics. I'm not against other races, religions, or political statuses having ample representation. I would just like to have characters or comics that represent more than just the liberal side of things or at least a deeper conversation regarding the two. I mean, I prefer comics that have nothing regarding politics, but if there are, I'd prefer more depth than just blindly liberal and that's the only option.

That's one of the reasons why I really enjoyed Phantom Stranger during the New 52 run. How often does a comic book cover Christian themes? I'm not highly religious these days, but I enjoy a good Bible-centric storyline and Phantom Stranger was a unique, interesting one (though slow to start).

The last story that I can remember from Marvel that was Christian/Catholic centered was... what... Chuck Austen's Holy War two-parter, and it was horribly done (though the crucifixion scene has always stayed with me as one of the greatest, most shocking moments in X-Men history). I think maybe Claremont's take on Nightcrawler becoming a priest during the Revolution relaunch starting in X-Men (v2) 100 was the last good Christian/Catholic story from Marvel. At least that I can remember.

Note - I think there was one in Ghost Rider but I've never read it to comment on its quality.

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I never said that conservatives don't want diversity, I said anti-PC-ers and anti-SJW-ers, which you equated to "conservatives."
I probably did lump all conservatives under the same umbrella there. My bad. Though I guess I'm an example of why that statement is still wrong. I'm an anti-SJW-er but still like diversity in comics.

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Old 04-13-2017, 05:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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I just think people mix up the issues of creating a sudden "legacy" character with issues about diversity.
I agree to an extent. Marvel does tend to make any new "legacy" character either a women or a minority. That doesn't typically bother me like it does some though. My problem is when the character being a woman or a minority is used as the selling point of the character. Because then it just feels shallow. That's why I never had much interest in Miles Morales when he was created. It was screamed from the rooftops that THE NEW SPIDER-MAN IS BLACK!!!! that I never cared to try the book out. I don't mind black characters, but when that's the entire promotion it just feels like pandering, and that just irritates me.

It was the same thing with Female Thor, Black Captain America, female Wolverine, etc. Heck, I LOVED X-23 during and after Marjorie Liu's run on her book and I lost all interest in her once she just became the "female Wolverine". I like characters better when they stand on their own.

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Old 04-13-2017, 05:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Originally Posted by InCali View Post
Gee......what a fascinating subject.....

I'm off to the MCU DCU, Thor and Infinity War threads.

Bye. For, like, ever...........
Good riddance then.

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Old 04-13-2017, 05:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
I haven't read the whole article, but there's three points in particular you should keep in mind.

First, superheroes are a lot like satire. They attract the kind of writers that are anti-Establishment, or that "punch up" in other words. You won't find as many pro-Trump or pro-Christianity stories because they don't naturally "punch up", they "punch down".
That's a good point. But not everything has to be "anti". Why can't there be a story where the Christian faith or modern day conservative politics are promoted in a positive light? Half the country favors those two things. Why not write something for those people instead of making them feel like the "bad guys" of a story or agenda?

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Second, regardless of where you stand, there's no such thing as an apolitical superhero. Practically every major superhero was a response to a major political movement. Superman and Batman were a response to the Great Depression, Wonder Woman a response to feminism, Spider-Man a response to 60s youth culture, X-Men a response to civil rights, the list goes on. Now Marvel and DC like to pretend these characters are apolitical to maximize their profits, but their characters' politics are always lurking on the surface. And it's not always a left-leaning stance either: Iron Man, Flash and Green Lantern are some of the biggest Conservatives in comics. Batman and Cap also range from hardcore leftists to staunch right-wingers.
I agree regarding their creation, but in my opinion, those characters eventually reached a point of pop culture where they surpassed the politics of their origins to become loved by all. I'm not saying change those characters, but everyone should be able to love them equally despite why they were created.

It's fine for Iron Man to be a more Conservative type of character, but if you're going to create a story that is essentially Conservative values versus Liberal values (loosely) like Civil War, don't turn the Conservative character into an Evil super villain. Millar handled that horribly. The more conservative characters became the villains and the liberal characters became the heroes.

And the same with that recent issues of Champions. Don't write a comic that depicts Trump as an evil dictator and his followers as racists and then have nothing to show the more accurate depiction of both Trump and those who voted for him.

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Third, SJWs are the new scapegoat of the internet. It's become easy to point the finger at them for everything. It's no different this time.
Being a person who honestly believes SJWs are damaging our country, I do find it easy to blame them for a lot of things. I blame the hard push for adding homosexuals into Marvel comics for ruining Young Avengers for example. I'm not against homosexuals at all or gay characters (support them actually). But in Young Avengers, Gillen took a book that was about the legacy of Avengers and changed the whole direction of the brand into essentially a story about being gay. When a writer changes the whole identity of a book, character, or team out of the blue to push something they believe in... well then that becomes a problem. I don't know if Gillen is a SJW, but that's the sort of thing that kills a book for me.

Young Avengers was amazing from the time it launched until Children's Crusade and with all the minis and one-shots in between. It was amazing because it dealt with homosexuality, yes, but also other topics of note. And it was all put together as a Legacy team book. When Gillen came in he removed all but one of the straight characters (Kate), added one gay character (America) two bi-characters if I remember correctly (Marvel Boy and Loki), then another character who came out as gay in the comic (Prodigy), and then had the one solidly straight character's sexuality questioned in the end (Kate by America). And the whole story was an analogy of gay youth, coming to grips with it, facing parents and society over it, etc.

Don't get me wrong... I get the appeal of the story for its audience, but that book COMPLETELY changed identities under one writer with zero natural build up to it. Gillen, it seems, used this title to push what some consider to be a political message. And sadly, it seems to have killed the Young Avengers franchise as that new team he assembled has completely dissolved and gone different ways and there's been next to no mention of the original group or even new group reuniting at all.

Heh, and apparently I'm rambling and lost track of what my original message was. But I'll just say that pushing politics in comics so that it changes what the character or team originally stood for damages a comic. Young Avengers is an example of that. And being that many of these writers who do that are SJWers... the shoe just might fit.


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Old 04-13-2017, 05:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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I agree to an extent. Marvel does tend to make any new "legacy" character either a women or a minority. That doesn't typically bother me like it does some though. My problem is when the character being a woman or a minority is used as the selling point of the character. Because then it just feels shallow. That's why I never had much interest in Miles Morales when he was created. It was screamed from the rooftops that THE NEW SPIDER-MAN IS BLACK!!!! that I never cared to try the book out. I don't mind black characters, but when that's the entire promotion it just feels like pandering, and that just irritates me.

It was the same thing with Female Thor, Black Captain America, female Wolverine, etc. Heck, I LOVED X-23 during and after Marjorie Liu's run on her book and I lost all interest in her once she just became the "female Wolverine". I like characters better when they stand on their own.
In a landscape of characters created in the 50's and 60's, it is sadly still news when a new character is a minority. I view this shift as a rebalancing. To adapt to the new landscape of popular culture. Can this be heavy handed and done poorly, sure. But it has also created some great new characters when done right.

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Old 04-13-2017, 06:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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In a landscape of characters created in the 50's and 60's, it is sadly still news when a new character is a minority. I view this shift as a rebalancing. To adapt to the new landscape of popular culture. Can this be heavy handed and done poorly, sure. But it has also created some great new characters when done right.
I agree. And every single new character can be a minority for all I care. I just hate it when it's used as a liberal or SJW promotional tool because it lacks depth. I wasn't around for when Bishop joined the X-Men, but just reading the book it felt very natural. He didn't suddenly show up as the NEW BLACK CYCLOPS!!!!! or whatever. He was a character who showed up in an interesting way, brought a terrific story with him, and became one of my favorite characters in comic books. The fact that he was black didn't matter at all in the story. He was a character with depth despite his skin color. Yeah, maybe new minority characters struggle to sell books by themselves, but introduce them into the Marvel Universe naturally and let them grow as characters themselves. Maybe some day they'll be strong enough to hold their own title, but if not... you still have a fleshed out minority character that makes the Marvel Universe stronger.

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Old 04-13-2017, 07:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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"Political Correctness Employees/Characters Killing Marvel Comics"

The title isn't an exact description of the article, but I agree with the article very much. The now obvious liberal slant of Marvel Comics and their creators has definitely destroyed a lot of interest in the comics line for me. And their writers are, in many cases, impossible to follow on Twitter if you're conservative. When a writer mocks your opinions and beliefs, it becomes very difficult to care about their books.

Just thought I'd share the article if anyone cared to read it, but this forum being primarily liberal posters, I doubt many would agree.
Killed it in my house and in my circle of friends. We have dropped most of our Marvel titles and them trying to back-peddle now rings hollow to me. How can I trust these same lame-brain writers and editors to now bench their politically correct nonsense and tell REAL Marvel tales again?

Until we get massive talent changes and firings, Marvel publishing will languish and be doomed. They drove off long time fans and now are wondering what to do.

I WAS the canary in the mine shaft. When a loyal fan for well over three decades stops reading your books, you F'ed up BAD.

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Old 04-13-2017, 08:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Honestly, it wouldn't change much. Everyone wanting to blame "progressives" are missing the changes in the industry. Marvel is too focused on the single issue market. But the industry has long since been transitioning to trades and digital. And Marvel has really been shooting themselves in the foot that way. Trades prices scare people off, along with inconsistent release schedules. And as for digital, Marvel Unlimited is going to take a rather significant chunk of your audience.

Not too mention publishing way, way too much. It overwhelms people, and forces them to make choices. Especially when you randomly raise the price way too often. And double shipping. Honestly, it reminds me a lot of the 90s.

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Old 04-13-2017, 09:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

I'm probably going to make a seperate post about this, because there's a lot to cover, but yes. I believe the SJW hivemind at Marvel Comics is the final gasp of a patient that's been dying for a long time.

The comic industry needs a top-to-bottom structural change. They need it even worse than the music industry does. Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, The Hulk, Iron Man, Thor...these characters were first introduced over fifty years ago and yet the only way to make money writing stories about them is by going through a single company and distributing the story through a cabal of small speciality shops.

Think about that...there's probably at least 100,000 writers and artists in the United States alone who are capable and willing to writing good Spider-Man stories. Despite that, for the past decade, only one man has really had the oppurtunity: Dan Slott.

Imagine all the stories that have not been allowed to be told during that time and you start to understand how broken the comics industry is.

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Old 04-13-2017, 09:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

No. Though it's probably not helping.

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Old 04-14-2017, 12:06 AM   #20
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Marvel is telling REAL Marvel stories with Kamala Khan as Ms Marvel, Miles Morales as Spider-man, Jane Foster as Thor, and Laura as Wolverine. Talented people have worked hard to make these books interesting and they are reaching whole new circles of people.

Marvel does have problems (events, prices, MCU pandering) but these characters and books aren't one of them.

Conservatism underwrites a lot of comics. People aren't going to stop challenging comics until the default superhero isn't a hyper masculine straight white dude.

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Old 04-14-2017, 02:10 PM   #21
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Because Marvel has never had a liberal stance ever, ever in it's publishing history.
Marvel was pretty progressive in the 60s. The Mutants dealing with discrimination was basically the civil rights movement.

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Old 04-14-2017, 02:15 PM   #22
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Exactly. And anyone remember when Captain America stopped being Captain America?

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Old 04-14-2017, 03:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

I didn't realize how BAD Marvel has gotten cause I only read Thor related Marvel comics now. I'm ok with the original story of Jane Foster Thor

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Old 04-15-2017, 10:38 AM   #24
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Honestly, it wouldn't change much. Everyone wanting to blame "progressives" are missing the changes in the industry. Marvel is too focused on the single issue market. But the industry has long since been transitioning to trades and digital. And Marvel has really been shooting themselves in the foot that way. Trades prices scare people off, along with inconsistent release schedules. And as for digital, Marvel Unlimited is going to take a rather significant chunk of your audience.

Not too mention publishing way, way too much. It overwhelms people, and forces them to make choices. Especially when you randomly raise the price way too often. And double shipping. Honestly, it reminds me a lot of the 90s.
Oh, I agree that Marvel has a bunch of problems. The political bias approach to story telling is just one more thing.

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Old 04-15-2017, 10:46 AM   #25
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Marvel is telling REAL Marvel stories with Kamala Khan as Ms Marvel, Miles Morales as Spider-man, Jane Foster as Thor, and Laura as Wolverine. Talented people have worked hard to make these books interesting and they are reaching whole new circles of people.
That's wonderful, but it's not addressing the whole issue. Are they writing stories about conservatives "held hostage" by liberal media/hollywood? Is it telling stories of conservative-like characters fighting to improve the world? Is it telling stories of Christian oppression in the world? Is it telling stories of Christian or Catholic characters and the prosecution they face? White characters being devilized by other ethniticities?

It's great that they're telling stories featuring minorities, but their SOUL direction is liberal minded issues. Women rights. Equal rights. etc. Yet there's a whole NATION of conservative/religious people and values that are completely ignored or treated as the villains. It's a one-sided approach.

Quote:
Marvel does have problems (events, prices, MCU pandering) but these characters and books aren't one of them.
I'm not going to assume you're liberal (I wouldn't wish that upon anybody ), though it'd probably be a safe assumption based on the simple fact that you read comic books and most comic book readers are more liberal minded, but it's very easy for liberal minded people to not see a problem with something when it only deals with things they care about. It's the same with liberals who ONLY watch CNN or MSNBC and take make those news stations' reporting as fact and allow them to shape their reality. It's an echo chamber.

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Conservatism underwrites a lot of comics. People aren't going to stop challenging comics until the default superhero isn't a hyper masculine straight white dude.
And yet, readership is dropping as they do this. I don't think anyone cares with the balancing of races and sexes in comics. The issue is when it's pandered to and those who think differently from the liberal mentality is depicted as the villains.

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