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Old 09-11-2017, 05:34 PM   #326
Mad Ones
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Racism helped Trump get elected more than liberals did.

Marvel is just grappling with comic book's long history with some really problematic stuff, and the genre has been slow to do it until recently.

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Old 09-11-2017, 05:55 PM   #327
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Racism helped Trump get elected more than liberals did.

Marvel is just grappling with comic book's long history with some really problematic stuff, and the genre has been slow to do it until recently.
All JH said was that Liberals helped get Trump elected. Sure, racism helped too but JH's comment that Liberals helped is also right. Some Liberals acted like anyone who disagreed with them, even if they did so thoughtfully and respectfully, was automatically some bigoted idiot. That made a lot of good and reasonable people get offended and defensive. Trump was (imo), in part, a reaction to Liberals.

More to the point though, I agree with JH that anyone who blindly yells racism etc about this topic when people say they just want to read about the characters they already love are the same kinds of vilifying people who pushed many to vote for Trump
(Btw, I'm Canadian and don't affiliate with any party in the US or Canada, in case anyone is wanting to dismiss my comments as just part of some kind of political loyalty)

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Old 09-11-2017, 06:28 PM   #328
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

So those people reacted to being called a bigot by electing a bigot? hmmm

Most of the old guard characters are still around and the ones who aren't will be back because they've been gone and came back before. No point yelling about how diversity is killing Marvel, which is what a lot of these conservative arguments boil down to. Just watch any one of "Diversity & Comics" youtube videos to see the long racist, homophobic, transphobic, and sexist ramblings that crop up.

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Old 09-11-2017, 06:38 PM   #329
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Doesn't seem to hurt the Champions' sales, much...

As usual, this thread and everything "Marvel" posts is pure hogwash. Unfortuantely, the line's REAL problems make it way too easy for certain crowds to justify their own hating agendas.
Let's take a look at The Champions sales numbers, shall we?

#1 - 328,165 issues sent to retailer
#2 - 49,733
#3 - 47,481
#4 - 34,969
#5 - 31,344

And so on...the last issue we have data for is #11, which shipped only 24,475 copies to retailers (a good percentage of which are still sitting at those stores collecting dust.) So tell me, does a 93% drop in less than a year count as "hurting sales"?

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-08.html
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Racism helped Trump get elected more than liberals did.
Haha wow...can't tell if trolling or actually lacking self-awarness

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Old 09-11-2017, 06:57 PM   #330
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

There's a massive drop between #1 and #2 for every comic series (part of why comics are in trouble and why relaunches constantly happen). Champions #11 was still in the top 100 for August, which is good considering it doesn't carry a brand that Disney/Marvel is trying to push in movies.

And, I'm not sure where your confusion is coming from. People wouldn't vote for a racist unless they were racist or don't think racism is a big deal (and how much better does that make them). The "SJW devil liberals had it coming" excuse is kinda pathetic.

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Old 09-11-2017, 09:35 PM   #331
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Doubt anyone would be saying that about Chuck Nixon.

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Old 09-11-2017, 09:53 PM   #332
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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So those people reacted to being called a bigot by electing a bigot? hmmm

Most of the old guard characters are still around and the ones who aren't will be back because they've been gone and came back before. No point yelling about how diversity is killing Marvel, which is what a lot of these conservative arguments boil down to. Just watch any one of "Diversity & Comics" youtube videos to see the long racist, homophobic, transphobic, and sexist ramblings that crop up.
No they reacted by voting for the only side that wasn't treating them like garbage. Personally, I think Trump is a terrible human being. But I can see how these opposing side drove them to him.

And See this is what I'm saying. You can't lump in the many normal people who just don't like all the favourite characters replaced and act like they're remotely the same group as some random YouTube weirdos

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Old 09-11-2017, 11:37 PM   #333
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

If people support or are complicit in policies and attitudes that are bigoted, than those people are garbage. If they felt like garbage because liberals were calling them racist, voting for Trump sure proved them right!

Like I said, most of those characters are still around. Ya, wanting Peter Parker to be the only Spider-man is different than sniffing for "sjw" conspiracies at Marvel, which is what this thread does every time its revived. Diversity is constantly incorrectly being held accountable for middling sales. Those Thor purists only account for a minority of sales anyway. And it's not easy for new characters to sell to an audiences obsessed with maintaining the status quo. These characters need to be attached to a big name if Marvel wants to reflect 2017 rather than 1967.

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Old 09-12-2017, 12:20 AM   #334
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Sadly, with everything, I'm just falling to DC. It's weird. DC doesn't feel like 'home,' but it at least feels right. Epic, yet familiar.
From the recent numbers that I've seen, DC's problems are bigger than Marvel's. DC is having problems selling anything without Batman in it. Even Wonder Woman and Superman sold less than 50,000 copies each in August. Marvel is at least making some green with the Star Wars titles, Secret Empire, Thor, and Wolverine.

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Old 09-12-2017, 12:20 PM   #335
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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And, I'm not sure where your confusion is coming from. People wouldn't vote for a racist unless they were racist or don't think racism is a big deal (and how much better does that make them). The "SJW devil liberals had it coming" excuse is kinda pathetic.
Again... you're jumping to the racist conclusion with absolutely zero thought. I assume you aren't in a very big community of Trump supporters or else you'd know better, but I'll be happy to expand on my own experiences in a very large Trump area here in Ohio.

I and hundreds of others that I've spoken with have all voted for trump. We have all discussed our reasons. I've never once heard anything from a single one of those people to suggest or hint at racisms/sexism/bigotry/etc. had a factor in that vote. Some of the people like Trump as a person (not believing the claims that he's racist... myself included in that number) and others don't like him at all.

The main reasons that come up as to why people voted for Trump are:

1) They simply thought he was a better option than Hillary in ways that include making them truly feel represented (this seems to be linked most to religious and people who are down and out)

2) They simply hated Hillary Clinton and/or thought she was to similar to Obama who they disliked (note: not because of his skin color but because of the job he had done).

3) They agreed with Trump's policies on stronger borders, stronger military, and other more conservative-leaning politics. Most of these people started as supporters of other Republican candidates (mostly Ben Carson in this area) but swung to Trump once their candidate of choice was no longer an option.

4) They wanted to see what a non-politician businessman could do with the national debt, government spending, and Washington D.C. in general.


I know my city is a small sample size, but being that you seem convinced that your blanket statements are true of all Trump supporters, it's enough. Hundreds of people for a year now and no mentions or hints at racist/bigotry/sexism or any other liberal catch phrase.

But you know the ONE thing that I do hear from nearly all of these people? Their frustration at being accused of being racist, a bigot, sexist, etc. Their hearts are being hardened against liberals... people like me who has always been more of a middle of the road type of... are becoming less likely to support liberal politicians and ideas because of how they are behaving toward me specifically. Not theoretically... but with absolute vitriol. God, I show up on hype in the Trump thread to join in on casual conversation and am pretty much treated like a child rapist for even SUGGESTING that I support Trump.

So yeah... at least in my experiences and in the experiences of every conservative and independent that I've spoken with over the past year... liberals had a FAR greater influence on Trump getting elected (and possibly reelected) than racism ever had.


Now with all that said... this is a thread about comics and I don't really feel like getting into a heated Trump argument in the wrong thread. So lets try to leave it at this and get back on topic.

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Old 09-12-2017, 12:36 PM   #336
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Again... you're jumping to the racist conclusion with absolutely zero thought. I assume you aren't in a very big community of Trump supporters or else you'd know better, but I'll be happy to expand on my own experiences in a very large Trump area here in Ohio.

I and hundreds of others that I've spoken with have all voted for trump. We have all discussed our reasons. I've never once heard anything from a single one of those people to suggest or hint at racisms/sexism/bigotry/etc. had a factor in that vote. Some of the people like Trump as a person (not believing the claims that he's racist... myself included in that number) and others don't like him at all.

The main reasons that come up as to why people voted for Trump are:

1) They simply thought he was a better option than Hillary in ways that include making them truly feel represented (this seems to be linked most to religious and people who are down and out)

2) They simply hated Hillary Clinton and/or thought she was to similar to Obama who they disliked (note: not because of his skin color but because of the job he had done).

3) They agreed with Trump's policies on stronger borders, stronger military, and other more conservative-leaning politics. Most of these people started as supporters of other Republican candidates (mostly Ben Carson in this area) but swung to Trump once their candidate of choice was no longer an option.

4) They wanted to see what a non-politician businessman could do with the national debt, government spending, and Washington D.C. in general.


I know my city is a small sample size, but being that you seem convinced that your blanket statements are true of all Trump supporters, it's enough. Hundreds of people for a year now and no mentions or hints at racist/bigotry/sexism or any other liberal catch phrase.

But you know the ONE thing that I do hear from nearly all of these people? Their frustration at being accused of being racist, a bigot, sexist, etc. Their hearts are being hardened against liberals... people like me who has always been more of a middle of the road type of... are becoming less likely to support liberal politicians and ideas because of how they are behaving toward me specifically. Not theoretically... but with absolute vitriol. God, I show up on hype in the Trump thread to join in on casual conversation and am pretty much treated like a child rapist for even SUGGESTING that I support Trump.

So yeah... at least in my experiences and in the experiences of every conservative and independent that I've spoken with over the past year... liberals had a FAR greater influence on Trump getting elected (and possibly reelected) than racism ever had.


Now with all that said... this is a thread about comics and I don't really feel like getting into a heated Trump argument in the wrong thread. So lets try to leave it at this and get back on topic.
If those people were silent when Trump repealed DACA, banned transpeople from serving in the military, was praised by white supremacists after Charlottesville, pardoned Arpaio, etc etc than their silence on racist/bigotry/sexism speaks volumes. These people you speak for aren't as innocent as you think, especially after the damage Trump is causing in people's lives. And your reasonings just don't hold up to scrutiny. If you're down and out, why would you vote for the millionaire tycoon who wants to take away your healthcare? Their "hearts are hardened against liberals" because they feel entitled to maintaining the status quo that benefited them at the detriment of others. You're the one who keeps bringing up Trump, and this thread just seems like a veiled way of arguing that the "liberal sjw attitude at marvel contributed to Trump's election."

Like I said, if you are upset that someone is calling you racist, don't support someone who is racist.

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Old 09-12-2017, 01:10 PM   #337
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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If those people were silent when Trump repealed DACA, banned transpeople from serving in the military, was praised by white supremacists after Charlottesville, pardoned Arpaio, etc etc than their silence on racist/bigotry/sexism speaks volumes. These people you speak for aren't as innocent as you think, especially after the damage Trump is causing in people's lives. And your reasonings just don't hold up to scrutiny. If you're down and out, why would you vote for the millionaire tycoon who wants to take away your healthcare? Their "hearts are hardened against liberals" because they feel entitled to maintaining the status quo that benefited them at the detriment of others. You're the one who keeps bringing up Trump, and this thread just seems like a veiled way of arguing that the "liberal sjw attitude at marvel contributed to Trump's election."

Like I said, if you are upset that someone is calling you racist, don't support someone who is racist.
I could easily argue every point you've made as they're emotional based and not logic based, but it wouldn't matter because you refuse to see people for who they are. You, like many others, prefer people to fit the narrative you've created for them. I'll simply say that I disagree with what you've written here and move on. I'm not going to waste my time in a pointless argument.

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Old 09-12-2017, 01:12 PM   #338
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Reading that back, I want to point out that it reads as if I'm bitter or talking down to Mad Ones. That wasn't my intent or tone. Nothing but respect

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Old 09-12-2017, 02:18 PM   #339
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I don't take it as disrespect. Our words speak for themselves. I can't convince anyone on a message board that DACA's repeal rips apart families, that the transgender military ban is transphobic and Trump has 0 evidence to back up his claims, or that Trump gave those white guys in Charlottesville the legitimacy to march etc, but the evidence is out there. These are factual things, being paranoid that Obama and Hillary are gonna take your guns and christianity are purely emotional. But, yeah, I agree pointless convo is pointless.

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Old 09-12-2017, 04:34 PM   #340
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No this is just nonsense imo.

Here's the thing.. Marvel's only ever had a "big two". Spiderman and Hulk. A lot of the other guys have got more prominence very recently because of the movies, but everybody's forgetting that before the MCU, the Avengers were second fiddle in the Marvel universe to the X-Men.

The X-Men have been MASSIVE for decades and have always been hugely diverse with very strong female leads (maybe TOO strong, Claremont!). Strong, POPULAR, fan favourite diverse and female characters.

Marvel complained that fans were driven away by "Diversity", forgetting that one of their biggest and most popular characters for 40 years has been an African woman. Storm's consistently been shown as one of the most powerful and competent heroes in the MU, as well as a great leader.

I find it hilarious that when Marvel shows off their new-diverse characters, there's normally Black Panther in there too. He's been a fan favourite since the 60s ffs Now they're pretending his popularity is some radical shift towards diversity in the industry.

Black Panther, The Falcon, Storm, Luke Cage, Mar Machine, Blade, Bishop, Black Goliath, Doctor Voodoo, Deathlok and others have all had their own titles at one time or another (albeit some as mini-series), and they've all had a huge number of fans. The difference is that they ALL had to sell a title based on their characters and the quality of the story. None just relied on "LOOK WE HAVE A BLACK CHARACTER!!" headlines like Riri does (because, that's the only thing that she has going for her - such a terrible character).

So this is my issue with the "diverse" streak in Marvel recently. It's all just a shallow sales gimmick. They're shamelessly using race, gender and sexuality to grab headlines - as if it was all just another "event" and they're putting just as much care in the quality of the titles as they do their usual events (ie a couple of great titles, and a whole heap of crappy ones)
You mention Storm as one of their most popular characters, except she can't even carry a solo title. Same with just about every other minority character you mentioned. Marvel's focus on most those characters' development has never been strong enough to engage with a fanbase to the point where a moderately successful solo title could last longer than a story arc or two, at most. Unlike white male characters, who are a dime a dozen, and are given far more opportunities in comics. This is a result of the creative teams and editors in comics being overwhelmingly white and male. Yet when you get an established black writer, such as Coates, writing a black character from his own black experience in celebration of black culture, sales explode because black comic fans finally have something they can identify with. And white fans can still enjoy it because it is a great story, with a great character, which introduces them to other cultures. You have a female Muslim creator in G. Willow Wilson writing Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel, and it is not only one of Marvel's consistently best books, but it also sold huge...until Marvel ignorantly re-numbered it back to a #1 and sales dropped severely from which they never recovered. When you have diversity in your creators, you will have diversity in your characters and stories, which allows for diversity in your fanbase, which opens up sales to far wider markets.

But all of that is beside the point because the suggestion that diversity is killing Marvel is ridiculous. The alternative would be revert to an overwhelming number of white male characters, meaning a character roster of which over 50% of readers can't even identify with because over 50% of comic readers aren't white males. And this "solution" is insisted upon while ignoring the real problems with Marvel such as their constant renumbering, event fatigue, and their overly incestuous universe. But no, lets not worry about that, lets blame diversity.

So yes, if you prefer to do away with focusing development on quality representation of strong minority characters just to make room for more white male characters, then that is racism. And this is what is being suggested when diversity is blamed for Marvel's woes.

I totally get that long time fans want to see Odison as Thor, Steve Rogers as Captain America, and so on. I'm not necessarily a fan of all these legacy characters myself. But the problem with legacy characters isn't their diverse representation. Because comics needs more of that (a lot more). I do feel Marvel should be making the effort to create and develop new heroes of diverse origins rather than having minority characters ride on the coat tails of their white predecessor. But the problem with that isn't diversity, it is story telling. And that is where Marvel is failing.

p.s. there's no such thing as a female lead being TOO strong

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Old 09-12-2017, 05:42 PM   #341
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http://www.screengeek.net/2017/09/02...be-in-trouble/

"Marvel Comics Rumored To Be In Some Serious Trouble"

Can't believe I'm saying this but I hope this is true. I'd rather see Marvel Publishing fold then continue on disgracing their history with this SJW nonsense. Mass firings or stop the presses. Either way, end this madness. No sane true old school fans are still reading any of this nonsense and the numbers are backing that up.
People call try and call that Diversity & Comics guy a troll but if you watch his entire line of blogs/videos then you know he tells the truth and knows his stuff. He's funny and well informed. He does speak for the older generation of fans. Maybe it's a "over 35 years old" type thing.

It is amazing just how many Youtubers are taking note and lashing out at Marvel for all their SJW agenda ridiculousness. "SJW Marvel" is indeed starting to become their official title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vuDwMS-l0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCWCQynEcXI&t=327s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2TsCwtYmpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wEIezlF10Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcjMQ4r0fDk

At least we old school fans who they intentionally drove away have a forum to complain and to crow that we told you so. As one of those guys put it, if Marvel is going to die because of activist writers then let it be chronicled for all to see.


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Old 09-12-2017, 06:14 PM   #342
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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People call try and call that Diversity & Comics guy a troll but if you watch his entire line of blogs/videos then you know he tells the truth and knows his stuff. He's funny and well informed. He does speak for the older generation of fans. Maybe it's a "over 35 years old" type thing.

It is amazing just how many Youtubers are taking note and lashing out at Marvel for all their SJW agenda ridiculousness. "SJW Marvel" is indeed starting to become their official title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vuDwMS-l0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCWCQynEcXI&t=327s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2TsCwtYmpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wEIezlF10Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcjMQ4r0fDk

At least we old school fans who they intentionally drove away have a forum to complain and to crow that we told you so. As one of those guys put it, if Marvel is going to die because of activist writers then let it be chronicled for all to see.
Can I ask which of these "diversity characters" you have a problem with the most?

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Old 09-12-2017, 06:21 PM   #343
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If people support or are complicit in policies and attitudes that are bigoted, than those people are garbage. If they felt like garbage because liberals were calling them racist, voting for Trump sure proved them right!
Thanks for proving my point. Everyone who concludes different from you is "garbage". People exactly like you are a big part of what got Trump elected. Sure, don't learn from history, keep it going and he'll get re-elected.

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Old 09-12-2017, 06:33 PM   #344
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Can I ask which of these "diversity characters" you have a problem with the most?
Can't speak to his answer, but as for myself I'm fine with them adding "diversity" characters as long as they don't supplant the characters I've already loved my whole life to do it. By that I mean don't take over their books or their superhero IDs. Sales dropping when you remove fans' ability to buy comics with their favourite characters shouldn't be a surprise or confusing.

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Old 09-12-2017, 07:48 PM   #345
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Originally Posted by YJ1 View Post
People call try and call that Diversity & Comics guy a troll but if you watch his entire line of blogs/videos then you know he tells the truth and knows his stuff. He's funny and well informed. He does speak for the older generation of fans. Maybe it's a "over 35 years old" type thing.

It is amazing just how many Youtubers are taking note and lashing out at Marvel for all their SJW agenda ridiculousness. "SJW Marvel" is indeed starting to become their official title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vuDwMS-l0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCWCQynEcXI&t=327s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2TsCwtYmpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wEIezlF10Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcjMQ4r0fDk

At least we old school fans who they intentionally drove away have a forum to complain and to crow that we told you so. As one of those guys put it, if Marvel is going to die because of activist writers then let it be chronicled for all to see.
Racist "fans" on the Internet can whine all they want and make controversial statements to attract attention to themselves. Doesn't change a thing. Marvel's issues are not because of diversity, they are not because of political commentary. Those "offended" by Marvel's comics can complain all they want, but they don't affect the sales. Marvel should be proud that they're outraging the rotten underbelly of their fanbase. Unfortuantely, their many other issues that are driving down sales are allowing the "token deplorables" to try and claim credit for their lost cause.

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Old 09-12-2017, 09:23 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Lantern Venom View Post
From the recent numbers that I've seen, DC's problems are bigger than Marvel's. DC is having problems selling anything without Batman in it. Even Wonder Woman and Superman sold less than 50,000 copies each in August. Marvel is at least making some green with the Star Wars titles, Secret Empire, Thor, and Wolverine.
Huh? All-New Wolverine has sold under 30k while Mighty Thor and Unworthy Thor have sold in the 40k-46k. Old Man Logan was in the 38k. All under WW and Superman's numbers.

And I wouldn't really say DC has worse problems than Marvel. Many comic store owners are still angry at Marvel's antics like overshipping and forcing their moronic variant cover system.


Last edited by geetard; 09-12-2017 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:23 PM   #347
Mad Ones
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Originally Posted by random_havoc View Post
Thanks for proving my point. Everyone who concludes different from you is "garbage". People exactly like you are a big part of what got Trump elected. Sure, don't learn from history, keep it going and he'll get re-elected.
Are you saying people voted for Trump to get revenge on liberals for calling them bigots? Give me a break. And yeah, if someone is transphobic and supports transphobic policies, for example, I don't think they deserve a lot of respect.
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Originally Posted by geetard View Post
Huh? All-New Wolverine has sold under 30k while Mighty Thor and Unworthy Thor have sold in the 40k-46k. Old Man Logan was in the 38k. All under WW and Superman's numbers.

And I wouldn't really say DC has worse problems than Marvel. Many comic store owners are still angry at Marvel's antics like overshipping and forcing their moronic variant cover system.
In August, DC had three titles in the top ten selling comics (all Batman) and Marvel had the other 7. Saying Marvel is in trouble is basically saying the comic book industry is in trouble. DC had a good boost with Rebirth. I'm sure Marvel will get a boost with the next thing they try. It's part of the over all problem with the structure.

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Old 09-12-2017, 11:27 PM   #348
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

There are genuine complaints about Marvel trying and failing to create new legacy characters, that are more diverse. I can understand those not being eager for a sudden replacement of a fan favorite character. And choosing to not buy a book without your favorite character is not wrong.

But lets not gloss over the fact that there is a very ugly, regressive segment in geekdom. That a lot of these attitudes are based on the "no girls allowed" clubhouse, that parity is enough to make them feel threatened.

That said, I maintain that Marvels issues are more business related, rather than creative. Double shipping. Expansive, and expensive, events. Complete failure to capitalize the trade market. Frankly, the both the big two need to realize that basing your series completely on a dying market, the monthly physical issue sales, you have a problem. The market is changing, but they don't seem to be quite willing to adapt to it.

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Old 09-12-2017, 11:34 PM   #349
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Are you saying people voted for Trump to get revenge on liberals for calling them bigots? Give me a break. And yeah, if someone is transphobic and supports transphobic policies, for example, I don't think they deserve a lot of respect.
What I'm saying is that there are people who hold different views than you, and so you've deemed them "garbage". You're views are so high and mighty and holy that anyone who thinks different is "garbage" apparently. You know what that kind of rank arrogance does? It insults people and pisses them off. So do I think people vote for Trump out of revenge for the exact kind of attitude? Absolutely. By the millions in fact. Trump is one of the worst possible people to vote for I've ever seen and seeing your comments even makes me almost want to throw a vote for him. I can only imagine if I was one of the people who lived in the US's Bible belt type states and kept getting called names for years on end.

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Old 09-12-2017, 11:38 PM   #350
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Originally Posted by Sithborg View Post
There are genuine complaints about Marvel trying and failing to create new legacy characters, that are more diverse. I can understand those not being eager for a sudden replacement of a fan favorite character. And choosing to not buy a book without your favorite character is not wrong.

But lets not gloss over the fact that there is a very ugly, regressive segment in geekdom. That a lot of these attitudes are based on the "no girls allowed" clubhouse, that parity is enough to make them feel threatened.

That said, I maintain that Marvels issues are more business related, rather than creative. Double shipping. Expansive, and expensive, events. Complete failure to capitalize the trade market. Frankly, the both the big two need to realize that basing your series completely on a dying market, the monthly physical issue sales, you have a problem. The market is changing, but they don't seem to be quite willing to adapt to it.
I agree with everything you said but would put a bigger emphasis on their biggest characters being replaced, especially so many at once. The characters are why people buy the books in the first place you can't just remove almost all your most popular.

But yeah Marvel's been trying crap in the short term that's hurting in the long term. Hopefully they're learning something and are course correcting. But I'm worried they aren't.

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