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Old 07-25-2013, 04:10 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Ant-manic View Post
that depends on how he is handled within the movie. for all you know, they set him up to be Giant-Man in Avengers 4. and he won't have to compete with Stark at this point.
Too late by then. He would have already been robbed of his crucial importance to the team and of Ultron.

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Old 07-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #202
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Too late by then. He would have already been robbed of his crucial importance to the team and of Ultron.
so then you're saying that he has no more worth as a character?

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Old 07-25-2013, 04:29 PM   #203
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so then you're saying that he has no more worth as a character?
No. I am saying he would have already been robbed of his crucial importance to the team and of Ultron. He would be a far less interesting character by that point.

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Old 07-25-2013, 04:31 PM   #204
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I'll admit that I don't have a great grasp on my DC lore and, if your username is any indication, you clealry know more about the Ant-Man legacy than me. I was just suggesting that Pym isn't very well known and Lang is even less known than that. Your right in that it would probably be more fair to present Pym as Giant Man or Yellowjacket rather than Ant-Man. Wasp is just as important as Pym (to the team not in regards to accomplishments).

But, and don't take this the wrong way, Lang was an Avenger for all of five minutes. He was created 16 years after the Avengers was founded and didn't really recieve full Avenger's status until 2003 (and was killed off shortly after). Hell, his daughter may be more significant the M.U. I have nothing against Lang but if it comes down to Pym or Lang, Pym is inifinitely more important.

EDIT: I know Lang's back now.
i would agree with that if Pym were a name familiar to the non comic book reading public. but he's just not that popular, yet. among comic book readers, i'm not sure how they could not know Scott Lang and know about Ant-Man. Scott was Ant-Man from, approximately, 1979 to the present. he hasn't used another identity. the current FF book is kind of Scott Lang-centric. if you accidentally picked up Fantastic Four in the 90s, you would have seen Lang. if you read Geoff Johns Avengers run, it's almost impossible to avoid the character. he was also on the Earth's Mightiest cartoon. Pym definately has higher status in the marvel universe. i just don't necessarily think that has anything to do with popularity.

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Old 07-25-2013, 04:35 PM   #205
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No. I am saying he would have already been robbed of his crucial importance to the team and of Ultron. He would be a far less interesting character by that point.
so you didn't like Pym until he became an Avenger and created Ultron? i guess i'm just not getting that. i see the movie-verse as a clean slate. everyone starts with the potential to be interesting or forgettable. i'm not sure how they'd make a giant superhero forgettable.

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Old 07-25-2013, 04:45 PM   #206
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so you didn't like Pym until he became an Avenger and created Ultron? i guess i'm just not getting that. i see the movie-verse as a clean slate. everyone starts with the potential to be interesting or forgettable. i'm not sure how they'd make a giant superhero forgettable.
That's not what I'm saying. My point is that stories influence how interesting a character is. If all Batman stories were boring and bland, would Batman be anywhere as interesting as he is? No. He would be a character people say would have a lot of potential if used properly but he wouldn't be anywhere as interesting due to that.

Same thing goes for Hank Pym and all other characters. The conflicts, internal struggles, and character arcs they experience in a story is what makes them interesting. They're not just two-dimensional characters in tights fighting crime. When you rob Hank Pym of his status as an Avenger and of his connections to Ultron, you rob him of his best stories and of his most interesting character arc.

If you're just interested in seeing a giant superhero throwing people around, the more power to you. I'm personally more interested in Hank's overall character which is related to the stories being told.

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i would agree with that if Pym were a name familiar to the non comic book reading public. but he's just not that popular, yet. among comic book readers, i'm not sure how they could not know Scott Lang and know about Ant-Man. Scott was Ant-Man from, approximately, 1979 to the present. he hasn't used another identity. the current FF book is kind of Scott Lang-centric. if you accidentally picked up Fantastic Four in the 90s, you would have seen Lang. if you read Geoff Johns Avengers run, it's almost impossible to avoid the character. he was also on the Earth's Mightiest cartoon. Pym definately has higher status in the marvel universe. i just don't necessarily think that has anything to do with popularity.
Pym is still a lot more popular and iconic to comic book fans than Scott Lang is.

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Old 07-25-2013, 04:45 PM   #207
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A:AOU has been successfully killed for me. And it has only officially existed for less than 24 hours.
Same here, they should have introduced Pym in TA2 and have his own movie get a box office benefit...

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Old 07-25-2013, 04:59 PM   #208
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That's not what I'm saying. My point is that stories influence how interesting a character is. If all Batman stories were boring and bland, would Batman be anywhere as interesting as he is?
"boring and bland" is all subjective. the assumption you've made is that Pym would be boring and bland w/o Ultron or being a founding Avenger. i simply don't agree with it. all the Hulk needed was to slam Loki like a rag doll to make an impression. actions influence how interesting a character is, in a movie. the story of Avengers 1 amounted to powerful people team up to fight big threat.

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If you're just interested in seeing a giant superhero throwing people around, the more power to you. I'm personally more interested in Hank's overall character which is related to the stories being told.
Pym can die at the bottom of the ocean for all i care. i was just speaking for the average movie-goer. Pym not being the creator of Ultron will mean very little to them. what they'll remember is him being the Avengers' giant guy. if you're interested in his "overall character," you have the books. hell, he's the lead of an ongoing title.

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Pym is still a lot more popular and iconic to comic book fans than Scott Lang is.
i'm not worried about that. it was Scott's story that piqued Edgar Wright's interest.

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Old 07-25-2013, 05:08 PM   #209
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"boring and bland" is all subjective. the assumption you've made is that Pym would be boring and bland w/o Ultron or being a founding Avenger. i simply don't agree with it. all the Hulk needed was to slam Loki like a rag doll to make an impression. actions influence how interesting a character is, in a movie. the story of Avengers 1 amounted to powerful people team up to fight big threat.
No. What I stated is that Pym would not be anywhere as interesting as he is w/o Ultron and without him being with the Avengers.

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Pym can die at the bottom of the ocean for all i care. i was just speaking for the average movie-goer. Pym not being the creator of Ultron will mean very little to them. what they'll remember is him being the Avengers' giant guy. if you're interested in his "overall character," you have the books. hell, he's the lead of an ongoing title.
It will mean very little to them because they don't know the loss of potential that would be occurring. If everyone in the world knew, there would be a lot more people against the idea. My problem with what they're doing to Pym is that they have the potential to turn a relatively unknown superhero to the GA into one of most interesting Avengers in the MCU on the big screen.

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Old 07-25-2013, 05:23 PM   #210
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Isn't that what the solo Ant-Man film for?

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Old 07-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #211
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Isn't that what the solo Ant-Man film for?
Unfortunately no, for reasons already stated.

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Old 07-25-2013, 06:15 PM   #212
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Ant-Man's film can be good as a standalone film. It shows us another side of the MCU. If they going with the Scott Lang version we don't have to worry about Ultron. Plus if Lang is Ant-Man we don't have to worry about the wife beater stuff which Disney isn't going to allow.

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Old 07-25-2013, 06:21 PM   #213
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Ant-Man's film can be good as a standalone film. It shows us another side of the MCU. If they going with the Scott Lang version we don't have to worry about Ultron. Plus if Lang is Ant-Man we don't have to worry about the wife beater stuff which Disney isn't going to allow.
I'm not worried about Ultron. I'm worried about Hank.

Who says Hank has to beat his wife?

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Old 07-25-2013, 08:07 PM   #214
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So are people really saying that the only interesting thing about Pym is that he creats Ultron and is an Avenger? That is just sad if true.

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:50 PM   #215
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I'm not worried about Ultron. I'm worried about Hank.

Who says Hank has to beat his wife?

The "Hank Pym is a wife-beater" meme springs from the same mentality that reduces Wanda & Pietro to incestuous monsters and insists that the be-all and end-all of Tony Stark's character is the Demon in a Bottle story. These characters have existed in the comics for 50 years, and in that time have been through countless story arcs that have helped to define who they are. They shouldn't be reduced to one or two traits or events when they have so much more to offer.

The screenwriters have a lot of material to draw from and they won't merely latch onto the things that fans see as the most important or most memorable. None of Marvel's films has adapted any particular story from the comics directly; instead they use the elements that are useful and ignore others. They aren't going to use something like Hank & Jan's ugly breakup when there are so many other aspects of the characters to explore. And that's if we even get to see Hank & Jan. For all we know, Wright has made Hank into an old man and eliminated Jan altogether.

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Old 07-26-2013, 08:05 AM   #216
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Isn't creating Ultron and feeling inadequate and whatnot all symptoms of underlying aspects of Pym's character? When people talk about adapting the spirit of the comics and other such phrases during attempts to justify some changes to the source material, isn't this exactly what they're talking about? Those same characteristics that make Pym interesting can still be adapted but in ways that aren't Ultron related. Maybe removing Ultron can be a catalyst for creativity if writers can't keep going back to the Ultron well when writing Pym stories as they have been doing for 40 years if this thread is any indication.

In essence, Pym's lack of presence in Avengers: AoU doesn't really represent anything in terms of how well Pym is adapted.

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Old 07-26-2013, 08:52 AM   #217
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I like they are taking Pym & Ant-Man in a different direction. After the Ant-Man film comes Dr. Strange and most likely Black Panther. Ant-Man could be the lynchpin that connects these guys to the Avengers.

Honestly I think adding Pym/Ant-Man to Avengers 2 would be a cluster#$*^. This as director they had trouble giving 6 hero screen time. Now add Falcon, who most likely will join the team. Do we need 9 Avengers for ULTRON??? For Thanos I can justify it.

Ant-Man getting his own film will get to treated like something he's never been in the comics. A HEADLINER!! If he was in Avengers 2 he woulld get minimum screen time. MCU is like the Ultimate Universe. It's a clear slate, so let's give Joss and Edgar a chance.

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Old 07-26-2013, 09:20 AM   #218
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The "Hank Pym is a wife-beater" meme springs from the same mentality that reduces Wanda & Pietro to incestuous monsters and insists that the be-all and end-all of Tony Stark's character is the Demon in a Bottle story. These characters have existed in the comics for 50 years, and in that time have been through countless story arcs that have helped to define who they are. They shouldn't be reduced to one or two traits or events when they have so much more to offer.

The screenwriters have a lot of material to draw from and they won't merely latch onto the things that fans see as the most important or most memorable. None of Marvel's films has adapted any particular story from the comics directly; instead they use the elements that are useful and ignore others. They aren't going to use something like Hank & Jan's ugly breakup when there are so many other aspects of the characters to explore. And that's if we even get to see Hank & Jan. For all we know, Wright has made Hank into an old man and eliminated Jan altogether.
Edgar Wright said back in 2008 he hardly even remembers reading the issue with Pym hitting Jan so I wouldn't expect it to feature in Ant-Man. Wright said in regards to Hank Pym that he is more interested in the old 60s comics of him fighting the Soviets so you can probably expect him to draw more from those comics.

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Ant-Man is a character that over forty years, he's kind of cropped up in various different guises, and it's always interesting to me what elements of the character people latch onto. Everyone seems to latch onto the wife-beater elements. I'm not even sure if I read that particular story. I maybe read parts of it. You know, the only thing is that parts of it touch upon is the whole mythos, and basically, it's the story about Hank Pym and Scott Lang. I like that Cold War stuff, it's great. Ant-Man taking on the Russkies single-handedly

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Old 07-26-2013, 09:34 AM   #219
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Isn't creating Ultron and feeling inadequate and whatnot all symptoms of underlying aspects of Pym's character? When people talk about adapting the spirit of the comics and other such phrases during attempts to justify some changes to the source material, isn't this exactly what they're talking about? Those same characteristics that make Pym interesting can still be adapted but in ways that aren't Ultron related. Maybe removing Ultron can be a catalyst for creativity if writers can't keep going back to the Ultron well when writing Pym stories as they have been doing for 40 years if this thread is any indication.

In essence, Pym's lack of presence in Avengers: AoU doesn't really represent anything in terms of how well Pym is adapted.

Pym's lack of presence in Avengers represents a big "lolwut" on the part of Joss Whedon, who's *supposed* to have a lot more geek cred than this. You've got a founding front-cover member of The Avengers, who's about to be introduced in his own solo movie just a few months after AoU, and your own AoU film's titular character is known throughout Marvel fandom as the creation of said character --- and yet, you kick him to the curb....? How does that even begin to make sense? Hell, dropping Pym out of the Marvel Universe *altogether* makes more sense than what Joss is doing to Edgar Wright and the character.

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Old 07-26-2013, 09:40 AM   #220
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Pym's lack of presence in Avengers represents a big "lolwut" on the part of Joss Whedon, who's *supposed* to have a lot more geek cred than this. You've got a founding front-cover member of The Avengers, who's about to be introduced in his own solo movie just a few months after AoU, and your own AoU film's titular character is known throughout Marvel fandom as the creation of said character --- and yet, you kick him to the curb....? How does that even begin to make sense? Hell, dropping Pym out of the Marvel Universe *altogether* makes more sense than what Joss is doing to Edgar Wright and the character.
Here's my question how do you make fans happy by adding Pym,who we've bee told is an old man. Do you just want him as an old scientist who makes Ultron, then be gone or do you want him as Ant-Man. Now if he's Ant-Man what's point of the solo film?

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Old 07-26-2013, 10:08 AM   #221
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Pym's lack of presence in Avengers represents a big "lolwut" on the part of Joss Whedon, who's *supposed* to have a lot more geek cred than this. You've got a founding front-cover member of The Avengers, who's about to be introduced in his own solo movie just a few months after AoU, and your own AoU film's titular character is known throughout Marvel fandom as the creation of said character --- and yet, you kick him to the curb....? How does that even begin to make sense? Hell, dropping Pym out of the Marvel Universe *altogether* makes more sense than what Joss is doing to Edgar Wright and the character.
Dropping Pym from Phase I and AoU was probably more Feige's plan than anyone else's.

And what's Joss doing to Edgar Wright?

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Old 07-26-2013, 10:09 AM   #222
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Here's my question how do you make fans happy by adding Pym,who we've bee told is an old man. Do you just want him as an old scientist who makes Ultron, then be gone or do you want him as Ant-Man. Now if he's Ant-Man what's point of the solo film?
There's two "Ant-Men." Pym *and* Lang. That's the way it's been in the comics since the 1980s, too....it's just that Lang adopted the Ant-Man persona outright (with Pym's blessing), while Pym remained (remains) Giant-Man. (Hell, Pym has always been Giant Man for 90% of his appearances, anyway....that's why it's kind of dancing around the point to keep discussing him as "Ant-Man." He was only "Ant-Man" in the early part of the 1960s, and that's what Edgar Wright is apparently shooting for.)

Also, if Wright still insists on the 1960s Pym angle, there's nothing in that story arc saying that Pym is even still alive. He could have died (or disappeared) long ago, and Lang could just be stealing a dead man's things.

But even if Pym *is* still alive and an old man now, I wouldn't have a problem at all with an old guy as a superhero. Might be refreshing to see an Avengers that has diversity not only with gender and ethnicity, but age as well.

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Old 07-26-2013, 10:24 AM   #223
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Wright said Pym and Lang team up in Ant-Man. Pym is active to some capacity be it physically or just alive during Lang intially becoming Ant-Man although Pym may die at the end of Ant-Man for all we know.

Pym has mainly been either Giant-Man or Yellowjacket most of his superhero career. Even under the Giant-Man persona Pym can still do everything he could do as Ant-Man.

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Old 07-26-2013, 11:00 AM   #224
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Pym's lack of presence in Avengers represents a big "lolwut" on the part of Joss Whedon, who's *supposed* to have a lot more geek cred than this. You've got a founding front-cover member of The Avengers, who's about to be introduced in his own solo movie just a few months after AoU, and your own AoU film's titular character is known throughout Marvel fandom as the creation of said character --- and yet, you kick him to the curb....? How does that even begin to make sense? Hell, dropping Pym out of the Marvel Universe *altogether* makes more sense than what Joss is doing to Edgar Wright and the character.
Well that depends entirely on what the story is doesn't it? Nobody is capable of assessing how much 'sense' it makes unless we've seen the stories after they've been told, which they obviously haven't. All I was saying with my post is that the character of Hank Pym can still be adapted well (perhaps even 'perfectly' depending on your definition of the character) regardless of creating Ultron or not. As it stands, it seems that Wright's story doesn't require Pym to have created Ultron and so there is problem whatsoever.

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Old 07-26-2013, 11:35 AM   #225
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Here's my question how do you make fans happy by adding Pym,who we've bee told is an old man. Do you just want him as an old scientist who makes Ultron, then be gone or do you want him as Ant-Man. Now if he's Ant-Man what's point of the solo film?
No. Pym created Ultron a while ago. He may have defeated it. He put himself in the right places, aligned himself with Hydra, Zola, mandarin, shield...stark pushes for this global ai, and there's the new origin of Ultron...months later, in ant-man, we'd find out that this ai was created in the past, and that it possibly killed pym, explaining the lack of him in AoU.

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