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Old 07-21-2017, 09:42 AM   #101
R_Hythlodeus
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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It's not "rolling over and showing their belly." It's being excited because they have a genuinely established and acclaimed creator attached.
and still the *****ty old studio that brought us Fant4stic or Elektra behind it

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Old 07-21-2017, 09:43 AM   #102
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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Um, Fantastic Four and their villains and don't have the don't have the same amount of self contained stories and self contained themes that X-men have.
And?

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and still the *****ty old studio that brought us Fant4stic or Elektra behind it
And Logan and Deadpool, both of which I enjoyed quite a bit more than several recent MCU entries (Doctor Strange, Ant-Man and Guardians 2 mostly).

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Old 07-21-2017, 09:44 AM   #103
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

Meh. Sounds like vaporware atm. Wake me up when it gets a budget and a shooting schedule.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:00 AM   #104
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

I get its hard for some people to grasp, but FF fans - yes, we exist! - want the First Family in the MCU for a number of reasons other than the opportunity to have Ben Grimm punch the Hulk (though that would be wonderful). The tone of Feige's cinematic universe fits the FF perfectly, the studio has shown they can successfully reboot damaged characters, and the FF is the perfect franchise to lead the connected universe after Avengers 4. It's disheartening to think that won't be the case.

And while Hawley's talented, we heard the EXACT...SAME....THING about Mr. Trank (who actually directed a successful film!) a few years back. I don't know how Doom works as a solo "hero" - is Noah going the "Dracula: Unbound" route and attempting to humanize the monster? That didn't work out too well for Universal. And will FOX commit the budget to allow him to envision Noah's great idea? The studio's track record says "no".

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:02 AM   #105
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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You can do an entire phase 4-6 story MCU story arc with just FF villains alone.

But instead we get a Doom movie and an isolated and possibly half-assed FF reboot.

They're wasting huge storytelling opportunities and valuable time.
Exactly.

My favorite Doom stories don't even involve the Fantastic Four. That would be his teamup with Doctor Strange and when he and Iron Man went back in time. Maybe Hawley could make a great Doom origin film...but if that's the case why doesn't he wait a few years and do it in the MCU?

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:03 AM   #106
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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I don't know how Doom works as a solo "hero" - is
I don't know why people have it in their heads that "protagonist" means "hero." Like, has nobody ever seen Scarface? The Godfather? Breaking Bad? Game of Thrones? The Americans? Dexter? GoodFellas? Casino? Reservoir Dogs?

Contrary to what some people seem to think, it's entirely possible to tell a compelling story about a villain, and has successfully been pulled off quite a few times.

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is Noah going the "Dracula: Unbound" route and attempting to humanize the monster?
Doom having a "humanized" origin goes all the way back to the old FF annual from Lee and Kirby where they showed his traumatic childhood and the persecution he and his family suffered for being Roma. That plus the infamous story about him trying to rescue his mother's soul from damnation are already makings for a compelling backstory.

Books of Doom deals heavily with all that as well and would actually be a pretty good basis for a Doom solo movie.


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Old 07-21-2017, 10:16 AM   #107
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

Anything to hold on to the rights.

I can't wait until this is another complete and utter failure

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:17 AM   #108
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

The problem with making Doom an anti-hero you root for is you're supposed to go back to hating him when he appears in the FF reboot.

That kind of weakens the protagonists in FF.

The Thing - "It's clobbering time!"

Audience - "C'mon guys, he's just a self-made revolutionary leader with a tough childhood who's just trying to save his mom's soul."

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:18 AM   #109
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

Echoing what's being said here - I wish they'd gone all the way with this and had given FF to Hawley.

A 60s set movie from the creator of Fargo and Legion?

A** in seat.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:18 AM   #110
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

So, having a sympathetic villain is bad now?

I must totally be misreading the reviews of Homecoming then...

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:20 AM   #111
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

Why can't FOX make a Silver Surfer movie instead? It has better potential than a Dr. Doom movie and it's a stupid idea to give the main villain of the Fantastic 4 his own movie but not including the Fantastic 4 themselves.

It's like doing a Lex Luthor movie without Superman in it.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:24 AM   #112
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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And?



And Logan and Deadpool, both of which I enjoyed quite a bit more than several recent MCU entries (Doctor Strange, Ant-Man and Guardians 2 mostly).
You really don't get it.

There's no X-men movie that looks like it needs Spider-man, Iron Man, Hulk, or Dr. Strange interacting with them.

While they all would fit like a glove inside a Fantastic Four movie.

Deadpool and Logan benefited greatly by including X-men characters and mythos. Imagine if different studios had the rights to different X-men.

You destroy countless storytelling opportunities.

Logan absolutely needed Professor X and the X-men legacy to enrich the story and layer the tragedy and themes.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:24 AM   #113
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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Why can't FOX make a Silver Surfer movie instead? It has better potential than a Dr. Doom movie and it's a stupid idea to give the main villain of the Fantastic 4 his own movie but not including the Fantastic 4 themselves.

It's like doing a Lex Luthor movie without Superman in it.
I actually could see a potential good movie out of that.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:26 AM   #114
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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Originally Posted by dax View Post
Why can't FOX make a Silver Surfer movie instead? It has better potential than a Dr. Doom movie and it's a stupid idea to give the main villain of the Fantastic 4 his own movie but not including the Fantastic 4 themselves.

It's like doing a Lex Luthor movie without Superman in it.
or a Venom movie without Spid...wait

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:27 AM   #115
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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I don't know why people have it in their heads that "protagonist" means "hero." Like, has nobody ever seen Scarface? The Godfather? Breaking Bad? Game of Thrones? The Americans? Dexter? GoodFellas? Casino? Reservoir Dogs?

Contrary to what some people seem to think, it's entirely possible to tell a compelling story about a villain, and has successfully been pulled off quite a few times.
We're not talking about serialized storytelling in which our hero devolves into a monster over a number of seasons. We're also not talking about gangsters. We're talking about a Romani born peasant who becomes a powerful mystic and super-scientist permanently clad in a high tech suit of armor. The degree of difficulty is a tad higher in this one.


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Doom having a "humanized" origin goes all the way back to the old FF annual from Lee and Kirby where they showed his traumatic childhood and the persecution he and his family suffered for being Roma. That plus the infamous story about him trying to rescue his mother's soul from damnation are already makings for a compelling backstory.

Books of Doom deals heavily with all that as well and would actually be a pretty good basis for a Doom solo movie.
It certainly makes for an excellent bonus story in a Fantastic Four Giant Sized Annual. But as a feature? I'm not seeing it.

Great villains (and many a hero - see X Men Origins: Wolverine) work best when their tragic backstories are at least partially clouded in mystery. Seeing Anakin evolve from whiney teen to cyborg monster diminishes the character just as similar efforts with Dracula and Hannibal Lechter provided information in the untold story that really should have been left untold. I don't see this any different with Victor.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:28 AM   #116
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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So, having a sympathetic villain is bad now?

I must totally be misreading the reviews of Homecoming then...
Yeah I'm frankly mystified by this complaint. A good villain should generally have some element of humanity to them to at least make you understand why they do the horrible things they do.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:29 AM   #117
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

I have no problem wit a Doctor Doom movie per se, it's just those morons in charge that I don't trust to get it right

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:30 AM   #118
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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We're talking about a Romani born peasant who becomes a powerful mystic and super-scientist who is permanently clad in a high tech suit of armor. The degree of difficulty is a tad higher in this one.
Not really seeing how. The protagonist setting out with noble intentions and becoming twisted and corrupted until he's no better than the very people he set out to destroy in the first place is quite a common literary theme.



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I don't see this any different with Victor.
Really? Because I do. Books of Doom is excellent and frequently is included on lists of best Doctor Doom stories.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:34 AM   #119
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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Really? Because I do. Books of Doom is excellent and frequently is included on lists of best Doctor Doom stories.
It is, but do you trust FOX in adapting it? Do you see anything in Hawleys previous work that screams he's the right guy to do it in tone or theme?

I don't

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:37 AM   #120
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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Not really seeing how. The protagonist setting out with noble intentions and becoming twisted and corrupted until he's no better than the very people he set out to destroy in the first place is quite a common literary theme.
And we've seen it in the Star Wars prequels, Dracula Untold, Hannibal Rising, etc. Villain backstories don't make for great cinema.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:37 AM   #121
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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Do you see anything in Hawleys previous work that screams he's the right guy to do it in tone or theme?
Yup. Fargo especially. He's very good at crafting villain characters who are despicable yet you can still understand and even root for at times. Bokeem Woodbine's character was probably one of my favorites.

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Villain backstories don't make for great cinema.
And I just listed off a crap load of movies about villains that do make for great cinema. The Godfather is frequently cited as one of the best films ever made, and it is essentially the story of a sweet kid who becomes a brutal villain after the murder of his older brother.


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Old 07-21-2017, 10:49 AM   #122
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So, having a sympathetic villain is bad now?

I must totally be misreading the reviews of Homecoming then...
You have a point.

Magneto also qualifies.

But Magneto had a common challenge with the X-men.

The Vulture had a common challenge with Peter Parker.

What makes Doom sympathetic has nothing to do with the challenges the FF face.

So I'm not sure how making Doom sympathetic enriches the rivalry between the FF.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:51 AM   #123
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I actually could see a potential good movie out of that.
A Lex Luthor movie before a good Superman movie makes no sense.

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:57 AM   #124
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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A Lex Luthor movie before a good Superman movie makes no sense.
Yes,but I have the belief that anything could possibly be turned into a good movie with the right people behind it.Lex Luthor is a complex enough character that you can make a great film out of him,but you would have to sacrifice a lot of comic accuracy to do so.I'm not really too attached to being accurate to source material,but I can see why other people would be.I'm just saying it would be possible to make a great film about Lex before Superman.I agree that it wouldn't make sense though (Especially since there hasn't been a good Superman film since Superman II).

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Old 07-21-2017, 10:58 AM   #125
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Default Re: Fox is making a Doctor Doom film

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And I just listed off a crap load of movies about villains that do make for great cinema. The Godfather is frequently cited as one of the best films ever made, and it is essentially the story of a sweet kid who becomes a brutal villain after the murder of his older brother.
You listed a crap load of TV shows and movies about morally conflicted protagonists, none of which wear an heavily weaponized suit of armor and a cape. Doom: Origins or whatever the hell this thing is called probably is not going to be a gangster flick.

And as an Italian American with a prominent mob figure in my family tree, I can say with conviction you are watching The Godfather wrong. Michael never becomes the villain, even after Fredo takes a dip with the fishes. The villains are Virgil Sollozzo, Emilio Barzini, Hyman Roth and others. But never Michael.

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