The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > General Movies > Marvel Films

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-11-2018, 09:04 AM   #76
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 8,655
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Scout View Post
Nah. They don’t need to go (overly) comedic with this. The movie should be about as funny as WS.
I disagree. I think that's redundant, and the assumption of that kind of film is the source of people's disinterest in a Widow film. Case in point: we already have the movie The Winter Soldier. How could a Winter Soldier-like Black Widow movie seem new and exciting?

__________________
X-Men TV Show Ideas
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 10:30 AM   #77
Boy Scout
Side-Kick
 
Boy Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,613
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

It’d redundant to mimic the tone of WS, which is factually tonally different from most MCU films, but perfectly acceptable to ape T3, which emphasizes comedy just as much (if not more than) almost every other film in the series? That doesn’t jive with me.

Boy Scout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 10:50 AM   #78
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 8,655
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Scout View Post
It’d redundant to mimic the tone of WS, which is factually tonally different from most MCU films, but perfectly acceptable to ape T3, which emphasizes comedy just as much (if not more than) almost every other film in the series? That doesn’t jive with me.
It's not perfectly acceptable to ape Terminator 3, assuming that's what you're referring to. Are you talking about Thor Ragnarok? Aping that is perfectly acceptable, because it's awesome, and it would be even more refreshing and revitalizing for Widow than it was for Thor, and doing so with spies instead of aliens leads to a fresh tone that no one else is doing.

Now, I wouldn't "ape" anyone as much as I would one up Kingsman by juicing it with a little Hit Girl, a little Long Kiss Goodnight and a maybe a little Alien/Underworld woman vs monster metaphor. But that's just me.

__________________
X-Men TV Show Ideas
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 11:09 AM   #79
AvengerPA
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,385
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Scarlett's costumes in these movies haven't been tight enough. If this movie is to be R-rated, then her costume should look spray-painted on. The character needs to be much more sexualized.

AvengerPA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 11:14 AM   #80
Aztec
Side-Kick
 
Aztec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,408
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AvengerPA View Post
Scarlett's costumes in these movies haven't been tight enough. If this movie is to be R-rated, then her costume should look spray-painted on. The character needs to be much more sexualized.
*sigh* Looks like someone missed the Golden Globes. How about a good story? And really ScarJo isn’t hot enough for you? Unless your name is John Stamos: stfu.

I agree that this should be a perfect place to start Marvel’s R Rated branding. “Marvel Max” or “Marvel Knights”, perhaps. This would also help make the Deadpool transition into the MCU easier.

__________________

If it’s not in the MCU we don’t want it Sony!
Free Hulk & Namor!
Aztec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 11:37 AM   #81
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Loki882's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 20,908
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

A Black Widow movie that's Rated-R COULD work (and Red Sparrow/Atomic Blonde have shown that they're not above making R-rated spy films starring women). But I don't expect them to do that really (although they might push the PG-13 rating, see perhaps Taken for an example of that).

Anyway good, it's about time. Yelena Belova as the villain please. Oh and a Bucky appearance of course.

I kind of feel like trying to go "bigger" after spending a decade building up to Thanos and the Infinty Gauntlet would be a mistake. So Phase IV could not necessarily be "bigger" but instead "different." And this would fit into that nicely I think.

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 02:06 PM   #82
Doug_Moore
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 549
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

About damn time. They waited so long a wannabe film got made instead: Red Sparrow.

Doug_Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 02:13 PM   #83
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Loki882's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 20,908
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

I wonder how much Ike Perlmutter had to do with the delay?

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 02:33 PM   #84
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 8,655
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
I wonder how much Ike Perlmutter had to do with the delay?
He had EVERYTHING to do with it, I believe.

__________________
X-Men TV Show Ideas
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 03:10 PM   #85
Silvermoth
Avenger
 
Silvermoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 13,484
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

I'm still going to see a black widow movie. I can't wait.

Wonder who they will get for a villain? They should pinch Doctor Faustus

__________________
Mutant and proud.
Silvermoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 03:13 PM   #86
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Loki882's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 20,908
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

^Yelena Belova.

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 03:30 PM   #87
Boy Scout
Side-Kick
 
Boy Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,613
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
It's not perfectly acceptable to ape Terminator 3, assuming that's what you're referring to.
Ragnarok.

Quote:
Aping that is perfectly acceptable, because it's awesome, and it would be even more refreshing and revitalizing for Widow than it was for Thor...
WS is just as awesome as TR, if not more, and I would argue that it was that film that made Captain America more than just “the first Avenger” to the general public. I’d be pleased as punch if more MCU films were inspired by it.

And personally speaking, I didn’t find Widow to be a particularly memorable or interesting character until WS.

Quote:
Now, I wouldn't "ape" anyone as much as I would one up Kingsman by juicing it with a little Hit Girl, a little Long Kiss Goodnight and a maybe a little Alien/Underworld woman vs monster metaphor. But that's just me.
I’m sure that could be very good, but if redundancy is a concern of yours, I don’t see why you’d look at films within, or relatively tonally consistent with, the MCU. That’s all I’m saying.

Boy Scout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 06:24 PM   #88
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 8,655
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Scout View Post
Ragnarok.

WS is just as awesome as TR, if not more, and I would argue that it was that film that made Captain America more than just “the first Avenger” to the general public. I’d be pleased as punch if more MCU films were inspired by it.

And personally speaking, I didn’t find Widow to be a particularly memorable or interesting character until WS.

I’m sure that could be very good, but if redundancy is a concern of yours, I don’t see why you’d look at films within, or relatively tonally consistent with, the MCU. That’s all I’m saying.
I guess I don't think the tone makes something reundant, especially when it's paired with a different powerset and set of themes. The challenge, for me, with a WS-styled Widow film is that she doesn't bring anything new to the table. If I take the Iron Man tone and put it in Kamar Taj, or Asgard, or Wakanda or Space, I get very different movies in terms of themes, visuals and supporting cast. If I take Captain America and put it in Russia *more often* it's not very different.

So, to me, WS's tone would feel fresh for anyone except people who were already in WS and Hawkeye. I mean, CW was basically putting the Avengers in a WS tone (minus the part from Spidey's recruitment to the Airport fight) and it worked gangbusters.

WS is definitely my favorite MCU film, and it did elevate Natasha, because of the very specific role she played in bringing that tone to a character that didn't fit in with it. Without Cap, WS doesn't really stand out from the films it's borrowing its tone from, and those movies are not blockbusters, and they do not elevate their female leads like the contrast with Cap does.

In fact, it's because I would love to see Natasha elevated the same way she was in WS that I want to increase that conflict, instead of just Cap pushing her out of her comfort zone, I want her to be thrown into a whole world which is out of her comfort zone, the same way Cap was in WS, which is what made the movie great, not that it had shades of Bourne in it.

__________________
X-Men TV Show Ideas
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 07:12 PM   #89
Fincher
Too far gone
 
Fincher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,845
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

I don't think taking a character out of their comfort zone automatically amounts to elevating them; sometimes it just clashes. I also think it's hard to take Black Widow out of her comfort zone because she's been alongside the Avengers every step of the way.

I haven't seen Ragnarok or Kingsman, but neither of them look to me like they'd be a good fit for Black Widow that would play well to her strengths. That's not to say that I want her movie to be Bourne; I want it be more along the lines of Casino Royale than either.

Fincher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 09:57 PM   #90
AndrewGilkison
Side-Kick
 
AndrewGilkison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,788
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Honestly, I think it makes sense to go R-rated and lower budget with a Black Widow movie. Something more character driven and dark.

Not every Marvel movie has to have a $150 budget and be a summer blockbuster. Logan and Deadpool have proven this.

__________________
"I am VENGEANCE! I am the KNIGHT! I. AM. BATMAN!"
AndrewGilkison is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 11:30 PM   #91
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 8,655
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
I don't think taking a character out of their comfort zone automatically amounts to elevating them; sometimes it just clashes. I also think it's hard to take Black Widow out of her comfort zone because she's been alongside the Avengers every step of the way.

I haven't seen Ragnarok or Kingsman, but neither of them look to me like they'd be a good fit for Black Widow that would play well to her strengths. That's not to say that I want her movie to be Bourne; I want it be more along the lines of Casino Royale than either.
What do you think her strengths are?

To me, her defining strength is her ability to adapt, to have no place in the world, to walk into "this is like nothing we've ever trained for" and be like "who do you want me to be?" I agree it may be hard to throw a combatant at her she hasn't seen before, but that's not what made WS challenging for Cap, it was the social dynamics. Same with Casino Royale, Bond was way out of his comfort zone, and that's what made him being a spy interesting.

I don't think I'd mind a Casino Royale-ish Widow movie, I just don't see how it'd be interesting for people who aren't already fans of hers.

__________________
X-Men TV Show Ideas
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 12:03 AM   #92
Fincher
Too far gone
 
Fincher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,845
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
What do you think her strengths are?

To me, her defining strength is her ability to adapt, to have no place in the world, to walk into "this is like nothing we've ever trained for" and be like "who do you want me to be?" I agree it may be hard to throw a combatant at her she hasn't seen before, but that's not what made WS challenging for Cap, it was the social dynamics. Same with Casino Royale, Bond was way out of his comfort zone, and that's what made him being a spy interesting.
I'm not sure where you would push her social dynamics from here. We've seen her fight for what's right rather than operate in an amoral spy world. In The Winter Soldier, she leaked everything S.H.I.E.L.D. had to the public, in direct contrast to a spy lurking in the shadows. We've seen her have friends and joke. We've seen her in a romance, albeit a sucky one. In Civil War, she chose siding with a friend over pragmatism. Unless they make that SNL romcom a reality or do something equally ridiculous, making the world around her fluffier doesn't seem like it would stretch her. And she should never really lose all of her edge.

The only way I can think of to explore her evolution at this point is to go full circle. Put her back in the amoral spy world to show how human, optimistic, and idealistic she's become in comparison, and to have her struggle to walk the line between doing what she needs to do and falling back into her old life.

Quote:
I don't think I'd mind a Casino Royale-ish Widow movie, I just don't see how it'd be interesting for people who aren't already fans of hers.
My main concern is with what would be interesting to me, and I don't claim to speak for the overall audience. However, this depends on three things being true: one, that the movie needs to attract people who aren't already fans of Black Widow, two, that making it lighter would attract those people, and three, that it wouldn't lose people who are fans of Black Widow in the process. For better or worse, she is one of the darkest members of the Avengers, the turn at the end of Civil War not-withstanding.


Last edited by Fincher; 01-12-2018 at 01:29 AM.
Fincher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 06:34 AM   #93
LaughterLives
Banned User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 985
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

I think a black Widow movie should basically be like the Mission Impossible movies of the MCU.

LaughterLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 06:58 AM   #94
Iceman
Infinity War!
 
Iceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Londinium, North of Gaul, circa XLIII AD
Posts: 116,724
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaughterLives View Post
I think a black Widow movie should basically be like the Mission Impossible movies of the MCU.
Yeah, something like those films

__________________
Xbox GT: BAHAMUT ZERO X 148,332 G
X-MEN - AVENGERS - JUSTICE LEAGUE
Iceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 07:38 AM   #95
NotNickFury
Side-Kick
 
NotNickFury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: SHIELD offsite
Posts: 5,079
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

I agree, though doesn't Winter Soldier also sort of check off a box there since it had that whole spy/espionage vibe?

NotNickFury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 09:22 AM   #96
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Loki882's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 20,908
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Yeah but that went straight up superhero flick in the third act, complete with massive CG-heavy battle for a climax (not a complaint mind you, merely an observation).

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 11:56 AM   #97
tamron
Side-Kick
 
tamron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Chicago,IL
Posts: 3,104
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I interpret that as a Black Widow movie that is far more like Kingsman than like Bourne. I think we've already seen the female Bourne in Atomic Blonde, and while it was cool, Bourne's latest entry itself isn't a blockbuster anymore, so how can aping Bourne lead to a blockbuster? Kingsman is a proven success, the nostalgic evolution of the spy genre AND has faltered, leaving it's 'space' open. Partnering up Widow with someone young, dumb and in need of mentorship could lead to a really cool arc and action set up and comedy. Leanng more into the out there 70's Bond/Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD comics gadgetry and conspiracy can only lead to cooler things.

I'm all for it including and alluding to and bringing up her past, but I'm not here for a 2 hour flashback. Budapest was a great gag, but it's only worth a ten minute scene to revisit, and we've already seen the Red Room.
I mostly agree with this but I think you could get a lot more mileage out of the conceit of Budapest than just a 10-minute scene.

Imagine like Mr. & Mrs. Smith meets The Hangover or Rashomon. It could serve as almost a two-in-one BW/Hawkeye film and show not tell why they "remember [it] very differently".

tamron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 11:59 AM   #98
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 8,655
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
I'm not sure where you would push her social dynamics from here. We've seen her fight for what's right rather than operate in an amoral spy world. In The Winter Soldier, she leaked everything S.H.I.E.L.D. had to the public, in direct contrast to a spy lurking in the shadows. We've seen her have friends and joke. We've seen her in a romance, albeit a sucky one. In Civil War, she chose siding with a friend over pragmatism. Unless they make that SNL romcom a reality or do something equally ridiculous, making the world around her fluffier doesn't seem like it would stretch her. And she should never really lose all of her edge.

The only way I can think of to explore her evolution at this point is to go full circle. Put her back in the amoral spy world to show how human, optimistic, and idealistic she's become in comparison, and to have her struggle to walk the line between doing what she needs to do and falling back into her old life.
I don't think I'd buy her being uncomfortable in spy world, because she never really left. You watch her in Civil War, she's already kinda shown she knows how to play the spy role while being idealistic. You'd have to explain her taking a step backwards, I'd think.

I think the comics give us plenty of great vectors to explore her character further without closing off her circle. Infiltrating the Thunderbolts would test her, because it puts her newfound optimism not against normal spy stuff, but against supervillainy. Her in charge of The Initiative puts her in the role of trainer with charges to protect and mold, and we could get a really cool look at her circle there. The Champions angle, where she sort of has to get into something totally different from her experience: normal life with normal mundane people has something similiar, though that angle hews to close to the SNL skit. The A Force angle, where you give her another thing she hasn't had: female friendship could be cool on its own, or mixed in with one of the others. The Winter Guard angle could show why her being comfortable with the Avengers is a bad thing when that connects with the spy world.

The character is a spy to her core pretending to be an epic superhero, and so she's fundamentally flexible, so you really could throw her in space or in time travel and have a great arc, but I don't think she's enough of a superhero to replace Captain America in the WS formula, and she's too comfortable in the spy world to replace Bourne or Bond in their formulas. Something has to conflict or else it really should be a walk in the park for her, like her intro in Avengers, or taking down Vanko's HQ in IM2.

Quote:
My main concern is with what would be interesting to me, and I don't claim to speak for the overall audience. However, this depends on three things being true: one, that the movie needs to attract people who aren't already fans of Black Widow, two, that making it lighter would attract those people, and three, that it wouldn't lose people who are fans of Black Widow in the process. For better or worse, she is one of the darkest members of the Avengers, the turn at the end of Civil War not-withstanding.
I do think that assumption one is reasonable. Every other successful superhero movie makes more fans for the character, that the concept itself piques the interest of people who haven't heard of the character. I don't think assumption two is relevant, not using spy tropes doesn't imply whether the alternative is darker or lighter

I do try to guess at the audience. So when every fourth person in every BW movie thread on every superhero movie fan forum is like "What is the point of this movie ever happening?" I take note, because that comes from somewhere.

If it were just about what I want, then I want:

"Red Midnight"
Pitch: 48 Hours meets Aliens
Short version: When the world goes dark, The Black Widow, Natasha Romanova and The Scarlet Witch, Wanda Maximoff are the only ones who know how to stop Igor Stanchek, the Radioactive Man from plunging the world into a new, bloody dark age. To stop him, they'll have to travel the world, escaping Stanchek's Winter Guard, deal with Stanchek's dark connection to Natasha's past and help Wanda through the mental strain her growing powers are putting her under.

There's no way a Casino Royale or Mission Impossible re-skin could even compare, this kind of story does everything they hope to do, but also so much more.

BUT if they insist on doing a superheroism-lite MCU film for Black Widow, I think that Mission Impossible is probably the best shot they've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotNickFury View Post
I agree, though doesn't Winter Soldier also sort of check off a box there since it had that whole spy/espionage vibe?
Some people don't care. Why not check it off again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamron View Post
I mostly agree with this but I think you could get a lot more mileage out of the conceit of Budapest than just a 10-minute scene.

Imagine like Mr. & Mrs. Smith meets The Hangover or Rashomon. It could serve as almost a two-in-one BW/Hawkeye film and show not tell why they "remember [it] very differently".
Rashomon does sound interesting, that certainly would make for a very, VERY different kind of BW film. I also like Mr. and Mrs. Smith, though I don't think a Hawkeye/BW film is a good idea. And while you can get a lot of mileage out of them remembering Budapest differently, you can get a lot more mileage out of them remembering her being recruited differently, or characters remembering the Red Room differently, or something that builds to a meaningful climax and not a callback to a joke.

If Mr. and Mrs. Smith is the angle... let Bruce Banner be Mr. Smith.

__________________
X-Men TV Show Ideas
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

Last edited by DrCosmic; 01-12-2018 at 12:06 PM.
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 12:05 PM   #99
2kt09
Here 'N' There
 
2kt09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NY, NY
Posts: 9,180
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotNickFury View Post
I agree, though doesn't Winter Soldier also sort of check off a box there since it had that whole spy/espionage vibe?
Winter Soldier, Civil War, and soon Black Panther & Cap Marvel might be joining that spy/espionage boxset.

__________________
Make Marvel Animation Great Again
Cook and Weisman's The Spectacular Spider-Man is to cbtv what Singer's X-Men were to cbm's
MCU_________DCU___________X-MU
Gunn_______Whedon________Kinberg
Reed________Goyer
2kt09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 12:41 PM   #100
Zarex
Side-Kick
 
Zarex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,769
Default Re: Possible movement on Black Widow spin-off?

I've got the end credit scene! Natasha takes a much earned break after the events of Black Widow: Red Room and meets up with Carol, Hope, Valkyrie, Wanda and others for a girl's night out.

Zarex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of Mandatory Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2018 All Rights Reserved.