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Old 07-07-2018, 11:13 AM   #26
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Default Re: Kevin Fiege vs other producers

Whedon, Gunn, Waititi and even Favreau have all showed a heavy ironic detachment in their film’s previous to the MCU. I’m not so sure Feige is imbuing them directly into movies, rather those are the directors he gravitated too.

Despite some similarities, the genre and tonal differences in the MCU is remarkable and unprecedented. He’s doing a better job in that department than even Marvel Comics did in the 60s-70s, as well as major film franchise such as James Bond, X-Men, DC and every other that jobs immediately to my head. It’s why the MCU is fresh and hasn’t gotten stale after ten years and twenty films. Bond was stale after Live and Let Die and lived in a state of mediocrity for three decades, the X-Men films have told the same story with the same themes outside of half their offshoot films, which while fresh, are usually followed up by an X-Men film that shows creativity is dried up and presents arguments that any success they have might be unsustainable, and DC has been completely stale outside of the first two Nolan Bat films and WW since the turn of the century.

Alien. Indiana Jones. Star Wars. Predator. MCU is more tonally diverse than any other major film franchise that comes to mind, and they all have shown signs of irreconcilable nose dips in quality or creative staleness the MCU has yet to show. This is mostly due to Feige’s touch IMO.

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Old 07-07-2018, 11:50 AM   #27
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Whedon, Gunn, Waititi and even Favreau have all showed a heavy ironic detachment in their film’s previous to the MCU. I’m not so sure Feige is imbuing them directly into movies, rather those are the directors he gravitated too.

Despite some similarities, the genre and tonal differences in the MCU is remarkable and unprecedented. He’s doing a better job in that department than even Marvel Comics did in the 60s-70s, as well as major film franchise such as James Bond, X-Men, DC and every other that jobs immediately to my head. It’s why the MCU is fresh and hasn’t gotten stale after ten years and twenty films. Bond was stale after Live and Let Die and lived in a state of mediocrity for three decades, the X-Men films have told the same story with the same themes outside of half their offshoot films, which while fresh, are usually followed up by an X-Men film that shows creativity is dried up and presents arguments that any success they have might be unsustainable, and DC has been completely stale outside of the first two Nolan Bat films and WW since the turn of the century.

Alien. Indiana Jones. Star Wars. Predator. MCU is more tonally diverse than any other major film franchise that comes to mind, and they all have shown signs of irreconcilable nose dips in quality or creative staleness the MCU has yet to show. This is mostly due to Feige’s touch IMO.
Really? I'm only responding to this part, because.... really? I mean, I would love for the next Doctor Strange movie to be as trippy as what Steve Ditko was drawing or for the Spider-Man: Homecoming sequel to be as zeroed in on the soap opera of Peter Parker's life as the Lee/Romita years. We'll see.

And you know you are comparing the MCU as a single franchise to other single franchises, right? Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Batman, whatever, they're all individual franchises that each do, yes, have individual visual, tonal, and aesthetic rules. Technically, Marvel is supposed to be at this point nearly a dozen individual franchises, but they all so similar that you are lumping them in as one franchise. Which is pretty accurate.

P.S. Yes, How Feige has built that is undeniably brilliant too.

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Old 07-07-2018, 12:04 PM   #28
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Really? I'm only responding to this part, because.... really? I mean, I would love for the next Doctor Strange movie to be as trippy as what Steve Ditko was drawing or for the Spider-Man: Homecoming sequel to be as zeroed in on the soap opera of Peter Parker's life as the Lee/Romita years. We'll see.

And you know you are comparing the MCU as a single franchise to other single franchises, right? Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Batman, whatever, they're all individual franchises that each do, yes, have individual visual, tonal, and aesthetic rules. Technically, Marvel is supposed to be at this point nearly a dozen individual franchises, but they all so similar that you are lumping them in as one franchise. Which is pretty accurate.

P.S. Yes, How Feige has built that is undeniably brilliant too.
We are well on the way to Dr. Strange and Spidey hitting those marks. Only one film in. I’ve read every Marvel comics produced in the 60s and nearly three-quarters of the 70s library, and feel comfortable saying they are doing a better job.

Your second point shows what a revolutionary and ingenious master stroke Feige installed to keep things fresh and diverse. And it’s amazing how each franchise are able to adapt different genres and can carry their own unique tonal pallette. One of the more brilliant creative decisions in movie making history. I shudder to think where this genre would be without this man’s decisions, especially when you look at how stagnant and repetitive all the Sony/Fox/DC movies have been.

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Old 07-07-2018, 01:26 PM   #29
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So what does great cinema mean? And does the Marvel Studios assembly line qualify as it?

I'm not actually going to indulge this conversation, my point is that by simply saying that is stirring the post. Hence "up for debate."

Regardless, it is impossible not to note he has a fantastic grasp of what audiences want and a very strong, present understanding of how to achieve that every time out. He honestly reminds me more of an old Hollywood mogul than a TV showrunner the more I think about it. Someone who understands the genre and his fanbase and knows how to deliver finely tuned products that (almost) always hit the sweet spot.

Since you said you are not gonna indulge in an actual debate, I will just leave this here but every little thing anyone has a contrarian opinion about does not necessarily qualify something as up for "debate". Hardcore fans usually find issues that are up for "debate" everywhere. The point is that with the casual moviegoer, you know, the percentage where there is actual reasonable consensus possible, the Marvel movies are an unqualified success, no matter how you wanna sugarcoat and paint definitions that are subjective by nature.

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Old 07-07-2018, 01:30 PM   #30
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Default Re: Kevin Fiege vs other producers

Just one observation on this debate of "tone" - The Batman movies starting from 89 till today have all pretty much been unitone in comparison to the MCU. And calling any movie making process an "assembly line" only indicates how unfamiliar the user must be with both creative processes as well as actual assembly line manufacturing.

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Old 07-07-2018, 03:50 PM   #31
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The assembly line is nothing more than another manufactured complain like the villain problem that no one holds Fox or WB accountable for.

If the MCU is an assembly line then so is every other cb universe likee Fox or WB since the majority of their movies have similar tones. Isn't what you are accusing the MCU for Crowe? Cookie-cutter movies. But of course when Wonder Woman does it, you turn a blind eye.

Anyway i'm glad to see that most of those complaints have so overstayed their welcome people are starting to really figure out their staleness. They actually start accusing Fox and WB now for their weak villains, how exciting!

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Old 07-07-2018, 05:34 PM   #32
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We are well on the way to Dr. Strange and Spidey hitting those marks. Only one film in. I’ve read every Marvel comics produced in the 60s and nearly three-quarters of the 70s library, and feel comfortable saying they are doing a better job.

Your second point shows what a revolutionary and ingenious master stroke Feige installed to keep things fresh and diverse. And it’s amazing how each franchise are able to adapt different genres and can carry their own unique tonal pallette. One of the more brilliant creative decisions in movie making history. I shudder to think where this genre would be without this man’s decisions, especially when you look at how stagnant and repetitive all the Sony/Fox/DC movies have been.
I'll leave t to agree to disagree. I think Feige has been great for fans and getting the mainstream to understand why these universes can be so rich in character and ideas. I think he also has given fandom what it most wants, a comic book universe on the big screen.

But tonally, there is a sameness to it all, which I suppose is my biggest critique of it. They all feel apiece, and while I think he has given fandom and consumers a more consistent product, I somewhat do miss when you could have franchises as wildly different as Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies, The Dark Knight trilogy, and Singer's earliest X-Mens in the marketplace. Now they're all kind of merging into a singularity with the occasional outlier like Logan and Deadpool. On the flip side, Feige "gets" the characterizations better of comic books than any of those directors I just named, and his eye for quality control is why he never produces pure irredeemable dreck like X3, Origins, any of the Fantastic Four movies, Ghost Rider, etc. etc.

But eh, I don't think we're convincing each other.

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Old 07-08-2018, 01:55 PM   #33
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I'll leave t to agree to disagree. I think Feige has been great for fans and getting the mainstream to understand why these universes can be so rich in character and ideas. I think he also has given fandom what it most wants, a comic book universe on the big screen.

But tonally, there is a sameness to it all, which I suppose is my biggest critique of it. They all feel apiece, and while I think he has given fandom and consumers a more consistent product, I somewhat do miss when you could have franchises as wildly different as Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies, The Dark Knight trilogy, and Singer's earliest X-Mens in the marketplace. Now they're all kind of merging into a singularity with the occasional outlier like Logan and Deadpool. On the flip side, Feige "gets" the characterizations better of comic books than any of those directors I just named, and his eye for quality control is why he never produces pure irredeemable dreck like X3, Origins, any of the Fantastic Four movies, Ghost Rider, etc. etc.
That sameness is what I find most appealing; the fact that even though there are different titles and creators, they are all clearly part of the same universe.

It's actually kind of sad that Feige has managed to create a 20-part-so-far meta-movie, with each installment successful and acclaimed, and the most common criticism is that the chapters have a similar look and feel.

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Old 07-08-2018, 07:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: Kevin Fiege vs other producers

I mean sad is one word for it. I would use frustrated due to a desire to want to see variety and risk-taking, and new angles on the genre. But it is pretty clear that by 2021, it will all be MCU or MCU imitators.

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Old 07-08-2018, 08:41 PM   #35
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I like how Kev Feige effectively ended the superhero secret identity cliche. As well as foregoing forced romantic drama angles, “How could she ever love me given... my physical disability (Thor), her young age (Ant-Man), my failing heart (Iron Man), my displacement into a time I don’t belong to (Cap).” They have stuck with that trope with Hulk, but that’s kind of unavoidable. We’ll see if they avoid that if/when they do DD and Cyclops.

Marvel was busy making “Superhero” comics with cookie cutter tropes, Feige has done a great job to identify and rectify them.

He also doesn’t establish members of teams based on the Marvel comics mandate of needing a strong brute, wise cracking youth, solemn and stern leader, singular meek women with weaker, elemental powers, and at least one member with own series. He pretty much let Gunn pick whoever he wanted in GOTG 2 and Whedon in Ultron. I seem to remember Nicole Perlman picking the five members for GOTG 1, but I can’t remember for sure.


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Old 07-08-2018, 09:07 PM   #36
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I mean sad is one word for it. I would use frustrated due to a desire to want to see variety and risk-taking, and new angles on the genre. But it is pretty clear that by 2021, it will all be MCU or MCU imitators.
I hope you’re frustrated with the other studios. Marvel does what they are best at and that thing they’re really good at is very popular and in demand. Maybe the other studios doing the things you like need to do it better. They have in the past, made fantastic films in the genre but for whatever reason it was relatively short lived and they can’t seem to get back there.

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Old 07-08-2018, 09:20 PM   #37
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MCU franchises are wildly different in variety, tone, and genre especially in comparison to other cinematic universes like the OG Universal Monsters, Togo Kaiju-verse, DC universe, Conjuring, and Fox X-Men. I can’t see how that is even arguable.


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Old 07-08-2018, 09:27 PM   #38
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Default Re: Kevin Fiege vs other producers

I'd like to see an MCU film that is completely devoid of humour. Like a Moon Knight film, R rated and done in the style of the Raid. Marc Spector, taker of faces and nipples.

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Old 07-08-2018, 09:36 PM   #39
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I'd like to see an MCU film that is completely devoid of humour. Like a Moon Knight film, R rated and done in the style of the Raid. Marc Spector, taker of faces and nipples.
Why? Coz you want to see them have a flop very badly?

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Old 07-08-2018, 09:41 PM   #40
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I’d like to see a Moon Knight shot in black and white with lots of contrast and shadow.

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Old 07-08-2018, 10:37 PM   #41
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I hope you’re frustrated with the other studios. Marvel does what they are best at and that thing they’re really good at is very popular and in demand. Maybe the other studios doing the things you like need to do it better. They have in the past, made fantastic films in the genre but for whatever reason it was relatively short lived and they can’t seem to get back there.
Heh, heh, yes WB is the most disappointing (I think that is what you're alluding to?). Loved Wonder Woman, but they clearly don't have a strategy and it appears to be chaos at the moment. I actually think Fox has learned quite well in the last five years overall. It's why we got movies like Logan and the two Deadpools, and to a lesser extent DOFP (Apocalypse is very unfortunate, admittedly). But now Disney is just absorbing them.

I don't dislike Marvel. I just recognize that they have created a template and they stick to it. If they're going to become the only game in town worth caring about, I wish they'd venture a little more off it. They did with Black Panther, but I feel like Ant-Man shows them returning right back to it, so I suppose we'll see what Phase 4 offers.

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Old 07-09-2018, 02:28 AM   #42
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Why? Coz you want to see them have a flop very badly?
Now ain't you a daisy?

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Old 07-09-2018, 03:13 AM   #43
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Why? Coz you want to see them have a flop very badly?
Honest question... Have you ever read any Moon Knight?

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Old 07-09-2018, 08:36 AM   #44
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Heh, heh, yes WB is the most disappointing (I think that is what you're alluding to?). Loved Wonder Woman, but they clearly don't have a strategy and it appears to be chaos at the moment. I actually think Fox has learned quite well in the last five years overall. It's why we got movies like Logan and the two Deadpools, and to a lesser extent DOFP (Apocalypse is very unfortunate, admittedly). But now Disney is just absorbing them.

I don't dislike Marvel. I just recognize that they have created a template and they stick to it. If they're going to become the only game in town worth caring about, I wish they'd venture a little more off it. They did with Black Panther, but I feel like Ant-Man shows them returning right back to it, so I suppose we'll see what Phase 4 offers.
I've said before, I'm not patting Fox on the back for their initiative for R-Rated films when Jackman and Reynolds, bent over backwards, fought hard and took pay cuts for Logan and the first Deadpool to be made.

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Old 07-09-2018, 08:53 AM   #45
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I've said before, I'm not patting Fox on the back for their initiative for R-Rated films when Jackman and Reynolds, bent over backwards, fought hard and took pay cuts for Logan and the first Deadpool to be made.
Not to mention that they pushed back at least one movie they (yet again) interfered with during shooting. Wouldn't surprise me one bit of Dark Phoenix was in the same position.

I loved Logan and enjoyed both Deadpool movies but saying Fox has learned their lesson is highly questionable.

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I'd like to see an MCU film that is completely devoid of humour. Like a Moon Knight film, R rated and done in the style of the Raid. Marc Spector, taker of faces and nipples.
Maybe not completely devoid of humor, but I agree. A Moon Knight film done in that vein would be something special.

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Old 07-09-2018, 08:59 AM   #46
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I've said before, I'm not patting Fox on the back for their initiative for R-Rated films when Jackman and Reynolds, bent over backwards, fought hard and took pay cuts for Logan and the first Deadpool to be made.
Maybe, but it's something Marvel never would've done. And to put it another way, after Disney successfully buys Fox, it is something they will continue not to do, even if they allow Reynolds to keep making Deadpool/X-Force movies, they won't dip their toe in that any further.

Competition breeds more interesting projects. But we're seeing that fade away.

With that said, not to be a complete downer, Feige saw the weaknesses of the genre before he began, as well as the potential in a comic book shared universe, and built something brilliant and seemingly unbeatable. So again, as a producer, he is a visionary.

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Old 07-09-2018, 09:03 AM   #47
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There are two MCU films I can think of in which the tone was a problem - Age of Ultron & Dr. Strange. The humor in both flicks didn't work particularly well, and a more serious Stephen and a more intimidating Ultron would have improved both films.

I much preferred Strange in Infinity War over his origin film, and if Derrickson gets the gig I hope he will go farther into the horror genre for the sequel. It's too late for the AOU, but its disappointing to hear recent talk that a Mega Ultron comprised of interlocking Ultron drones was cut from the finale. That would have been a big improvement!

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Old 07-09-2018, 09:06 AM   #48
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Maybe, but it's something Marvel never would've done. And to put it another way, after Disney successfully buys Fox, it is something they will continue not to do, even if they allow Reynolds to keep making Deadpool/X-Force movies, they won't dip their toe in that any further.
I'm really not sure that's the case. At the moment Marvel's gravy train is rolling super smoothly so I don't think they're itching to deviate from that formula in the near future but I believe these two things to be true:

1) The MCU will, sometime in the next few years, come down from it's current peak. They are now regularly putting out 3 movies a year and it's guaranteed that one or more will stumble/outright flop at some point.

2) Fiege (or any of the higher-ups at Disney honestly) is probably smart enough to recognize that change is inevitable and good things don't last forever. Deadpool and Logan proved that there's an itch in the marketplace that the current Marvel stable isn't scratching, and when things start to slow down for the current model, they'll switch up. Maybe even sooner once they acquire the X-men properties.

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Old 07-09-2018, 09:14 AM   #49
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Maybe, but it's something Marvel never would've done. And to put it another way, after Disney successfully buys Fox, it is something they will continue not to do, even if they allow Reynolds to keep making Deadpool/X-Force movies, they won't dip their toe in that any further.

Competition breeds more interesting projects. But we're seeing that fade away.

With that said, not to be a complete downer, Feige saw the weaknesses of the genre before he began, as well as the potential in a comic book shared universe, and built something brilliant and seemingly unbeatable. So again, as a producer, he is a visionary.
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I'm really not sure that's the case. At the moment Marvel's gravy train is rolling super smoothly so I don't think they're itching to deviate from that formula in the near future but I believe these two things to be true:

1) The MCU will, sometime in the next few years, come down from it's current peak. They are now regularly putting out 3 movies a year and it's guaranteed that one or more will stumble/outright flop at some point.

2) Fiege (or any of the higher-ups at Disney honestly) is probably smart enough to recognize that change is inevitable and good things don't last forever. Deadpool and Logan proved that there's an itch in the marketplace that the current Marvel stable isn't scratching, and when things start to slow down for the current model, they'll switch up. Maybe even sooner once they acquire the X-men properties.
You have to also look at the circumstances and the characters. Jackman has been in/cameoed in every movie except the Deadpool movies which he was still mentioned in? He was doing a last hurrah and of course, you can take a chance when you're not looking to extend the character or the series.

Further, how many R-Rated characters can really be done? Punisher? Who has it's own Netflix series. Blade and Midnight Suns?

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Old 07-09-2018, 09:40 AM   #50
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Marvel didn’t put out any real ‘R’ rated comics until the Marvel Knights, Max era in the late 90s besides some of the 70s black & white out of canon stuff. I don’t get why that is something they would need to necessarily go out of their way to do.

I’m more anxious about seeing Atlantis, the Savage Land, and Mt. Olympics in the MCU rather than I am seeing an R rated movie.


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