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Old 08-25-2006, 10:24 AM   #26
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by The Sage
Can't agree on this. I think Nicholson's Joker would hold up well today. What is it about his Joker that doesn't hold up? I know the Joker is more psychotic, but other than that, what's wrong with Nicholson's Joker? How was he not the Joker we know and love?

Maybe I'm being a little too harsh but what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that performance holds up to the fan's expectations, which in my opinion is TAS version.

That expectation could even have the possibility of even dooming Nolan's version but since he is using "The Joker's Five-way Revenge" as the basis and considering that story set the core for the way the Joker is portrayed in both TAS and the comics even to this day, I think we fans will be very pleased.


Here is a blurb that describes the significance of "The Five-way Revenge."

There is no doubting "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge" (1973) is notable for three reasons. Number one, it marked a return to form for the Joker. Under writer Denny O'Neil, this Joker was no longer encumbered by Wortham's stifling legacy (the original version of the Comics Code) or the stigma of the "Batman" tv program. He once again became the deadly menace portrayed in his original appearances, as evidenced by the re-introduction of the laugh-inducing Joker-venom. Secondly, the Joker regained his sense of humor, and actually became funny instead of annoying. This Joker was a far cry from the one in the 50s/60s, who was just a goofy, irritating freak (check out "The Great Clayface-Joker Feud"). He used style (the exploding cigar) and wit (the shark) and sly banter, instead of obnoxiousness. Finally, and most importantly, "Five-Way" established the groundwork for the entire Batman/Joker dichotomy that's become the core of the Bat-mythos: reason/rationality vs randomness/insanity. When the Joker clubs Batman into unconsciousness, the grinning gargoyle decides not to kill his nemesis; instead, the Joker pontificates about how any death for Batman must come solely from a battle of wits and madness--anything else would be cheap and pointless.

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Old 08-25-2006, 10:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

Quote:
Originally Posted by raybia
Maybe I'm being a little too harsh but what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that performance holds up to the fan's expectations, which in my opinion is TAS version.

That expectation could even have the possibility of even dooming Nolan's version but since he is using "The Joker's Five-way Revenge" as the basis and considering that story set the core for the way the Joker is portrayed in both TAS and the comics even to this day, I think we fans will be very pleased.


Here is a blurb that describes the significance of "The Five-way Revenge."

There is no doubting "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge" (1973) is notable for three reasons. Number one, it marked a return to form for the Joker. Under writer Denny O'Neil, this Joker was no longer encumbered by Wortham's stifling legacy (the original version of the Comics Code) or the stigma of the "Batman" tv program. He once again became the deadly menace portrayed in his original appearances, as evidenced by the re-introduction of the laugh-inducing Joker-venom. Secondly, the Joker regained his sense of humor, and actually became funny instead of annoying. This Joker was a far cry from the one in the 50s/60s, who was just a goofy, irritating freak (check out "The Great Clayface-Joker Feud"). He used style (the exploding cigar) and wit (the shark) and sly banter, instead of obnoxiousness. Finally, and most importantly, "Five-Way" established the groundwork for the entire Batman/Joker dichotomy that's become the core of the Bat-mythos: reason/rationality vs randomness/insanity. When the Joker clubs Batman into unconsciousness, the grinning gargoyle decides not to kill his nemesis; instead, the Joker pontificates about how any death for Batman must come solely from a battle of wits and madness--anything else would be cheap and pointless.
I've read the "Five-Way Revenge" story (good read BTW). Still not clear on what is it about Nicholson's Joker that doesn't hold up well. Heck, I even think Five-Way Revenge was used as a reference for The Joker in B89, if I remember the extra stuff on the SE DVDs. Joker did use a lot of style and humor in killing his enemies. If you're referring to Joker choosing that Batman has to die from a battle of wits instead of a straight up death, then I somewhat understand you.

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Old 08-25-2006, 10:45 AM   #28
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

You got it raybia: THE FIVE WAY-REVENGER... that's what I meant by saying we'll get an O' Neil / Adams Joker Anyway, Jack Nicholson IS The Joker but I see no sense in comparing this new series to the old. It'll be just plain stupid like comparing BATMAN to the 66 TV series or 40s serials... It's a new series now...

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Old 08-25-2006, 10:48 AM   #29
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by The Sage
I've read the "Five-Way Revenge" story (good read BTW). Still not clear on what is it about Nicholson's Joker that doesn't hold up well. Heck, I even think Five-Way Revenge was used as a reference for The Joker in B89, if I remember the extra stuff on the SE DVDs. Joker did use a lot of style and humor in killing his enemies. If you're referring to Joker choosing that Batman has to die from a battle of wits instead of a straight up death, then I somewhat understand you.
Yeah, it think that a big part of it. Plus, (which isn't Nicholson's fault) I didn't like that he was mob henchman to begin with and I didn't think he came across as insane or deadly (yes he killed people in that movie but I just didn't find him...scary.)

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by raybia
Yeah, it think that a big part of it. Plus, (which isn't Nicholson's fault) I didn't like that he was mob henchman to begin with and I didn't think he came across as insane or deadly (yes he killed people in that movie but I just didn't find him...scary.)
Ah, I understand. I hope that is explored more. I think the mob henchman origin was also used in TAS, or at least referenced in MOTP.

I do think Nicholson's Joker came across as deadly and insane, but I do agree he lacked scariness. I hope they do an excellent job on Ledger's make-up job. I think he has the right face for the Joker, or at least to use as a base with prosthetics.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:12 AM   #31
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

I don't know if they should use prostethics, at least not prosthetics to make his face / chin longer, wouldn't like that...

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:13 AM   #32
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by raybia
Yeah, it think that a big part of it. Plus, (which isn't Nicholson's fault) I didn't like that he was mob henchman to begin with and I didn't think he came across as insane or deadly (yes he killed people in that movie but I just didn't find him...scary.)
nail. on. the. head.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:14 AM   #33
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

i thought he sucked, it was to much of a "joke" for the joker

i.e. prince painting

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:14 AM   #34
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by fabman
You got it raybia: THE FIVE WAY-REVENGER... that's what I meant by saying we'll get an O' Neil / Adams Joker Anyway, Jack Nicholson IS The Joker but I see no sense in comparing this new series to the old. It'll be just plain stupid like comparing BATMAN to the 66 TV series or 40s serials... It's a new series now...
I agree. Whatever happens in TDK shouldn't take anything away from Nicholson's performance, I just think we have yet to see the definitive Joker (if there is such a thing.)

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:16 AM   #35
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

eh , i guess nicholson's performance was okay. he got some of the charisma .... but not in a homicidal way like the joker we all know. more like a likeable kind of charisma. he also had his darker moments , like the "wait 'till they get a load a' me " scene. his laugh was good , but not near as good as mark hamill's voice acting . so , he was very close , but not close enough .

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:17 AM   #36
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by The Sage
Ah, I understand. I hope that is explored more. I think the mob henchman origin was also used in TAS, or at least referenced in MOTP.

Yeah he was. I didn't like that about the TAS version. TKJ version is what floats my boat. It the Joker is going to have an origin it should be multiple choice.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:18 AM   #37
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by fabman
I don't know if they should use prostethics, at least not prosthetics to make his face / chin longer, wouldn't like that...
If they can make it look real, why not? Especially in the chin and nose area.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:20 AM   #38
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

the interrogation scene nails what batman is all about.

first you see bats talking to gordon '...he'll talk to me' a very gruff voice but there is no menace it

then you the dirty cop upside down and there is batman in the alcove
'WHERE WERE THE OTHER DRUGS GOING!!!!'

I was like OH. MY. GOSH!
THAT is batman

well I thought that exact thing when I saw the return of joker
THAT is joker

and at no time watching nicholson did I feel that, he wasn't menacing, he wasn't scary and I was a kid at the time for petes sake therefore (for me) he wasn't joker.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:21 AM   #39
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by raybia
Yeah he was. I didn't like that about the TAS version. TKJ version is what floats my boat. It the Joker is going to have an origin it should be multiple choice.
Ha, beat me to it. I was gonna say that.

I prefer for his origin to be ambiguous. Would be cool to see a scene where Joker's trying to remember and we see flashes of him as a gangster, then he says "no wait, that's not it", then we see clips of a failed comedian, then he changes his mind again.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:22 AM   #40
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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He got a part of it. Not all of it, but a good chunk of it he did get.
agreed

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:23 AM   #41
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

For the time it came out he NAILED it right on the money.

Remember, all we had before Nicholson's Joker was Caser Romero as the joker from the Batman campy TV show. And Nicholsn's Joker was a lot closer to the Joker than that by any strecth of the imagination.

.

So from what we had to compare with what we previous seen, A campy joker with a white mustache, Nicholson was nailed on. Still, Nicholson performance holds up well even till today. And he was more than scary enough.

Very scary.

However I would have love to see Nicholson portrayed the Joker in the early 80s right after the shinning when he was a little slimmer and I think e would've been REALLY on the money.

IF they would've made the Batman movie back then (like it was orignally intended) Nicholson would been even better.


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Old 08-25-2006, 11:23 AM   #42
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

Quote:
Originally Posted by spider-neil
the interrogation scene nails what batman is all about.

first you see bats talking to gordon '...he'll talk to me' a very gruff voice but there is no menace it

then you the dirty cop upside down and there is batman in the alcove
'WHERE WERE THE OTHER DRUGS GOING!!!!'

I was like OH. MY. GOSH!
THAT is batman

well I thought that exact thing when I saw the return of joker
THAT is joker

and at no time watching nicholson did I feel that, he wasn't menacing, he wasn't scary and I was a kid at the time for petes sake therefore (for me) he wasn't joker.
I thought the scene where Joker fried the guy with the joy buzzer was pretty intense. And watching him just laugh it off made him seem insane.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:25 AM   #43
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

*Thinks about Nicholson's Joker dancing to Prince music*

...

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:29 AM   #44
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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*Thinks about Nicholson's Joker dancing to Prince music*

...
*shudder*

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:47 AM   #45
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

Nicholson did nail the Joker in the sense that he nailed one version of the character. But for me, Nicholson's performance is far from definitive.

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:51 AM   #46
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

Edited

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:52 AM   #47
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by The Sage
Would be cool to see a scene where Joker's trying to remember and we see flashes of him as a gangster, then he says "no wait, that's not it", then we see clips of a failed comedian, then he changes his mind again.
Wow I would love that!

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Old 08-25-2006, 11:54 AM   #48
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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Originally Posted by Darknightnomis
For the time it came out he NAILED it right on the money.

Remember, all we had before Nicholson's Joker was Caser Romero as the joker from the Batman campy TV show. And Nicholsn's Joker was a lot closer to the Joker than that by any strecth of the imagination.

.

So from what we had to compare with what we previous seen, A campy joker with a white mustache, Nicholson was nailed on. Still, Nicholson performance holds up well even till today. And he was more than scary enough.

Very scary.

However I would have love to see Nicholson portrayed the Joker in the early 80s right after the shinning when he was a little slimmer and I think e would've been REALLY on the money.

IF they would've made the Batman movie back then (like it was orignally intended) Nicholson would been even better.

Mid -Seventies Nicholson + Nolan's interpretation = BEST DAMN VILLIAN IN MOVIE HISTORY!!!!

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Old 08-25-2006, 12:32 PM   #49
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

Well, take this from someone who's first real impression of Batman was from Batman89. I enjoyed the movie very much. It is clearly a classic. I was a child when I first saw it, but I remember thinking 2 things in particular. Bruce Wayne seemed like a wuss and a weirdo, and the Joker looked like he was TRYING really, really hard to be funny. So, no, I do not think it is a definitive performance. Jack Nicholson played psycho pretty good - I recently saw Cuckoo's Nest, but his humor and REALLY laughing at some sick things was really missing.

As a side note: Two other things bugged me about Batman 89...

1. Joker's origin is just all wrong...save falling into the vat of chemicals. Jack Napier? Killing Bruce's parents? Ick.

2. Batman doesn't SHOOT BULLETS. For the love of God, the man hates guns! Why is he shooting at the parade from his plane? I remember seeing that recently and my jaw dropped. I thought, "Is Batman insane?"

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Old 08-25-2006, 12:33 PM   #50
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Default Re: am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

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As a side note: Two other things bugged me about Batman 89...

1. Joker's origin is just all wrong...save falling into the vat of chemicals. Jack Napier? Killing Bruce's parents? Ick.

2. Batman doesn't SHOOT BULLETS. For the love of God, the man hates guns! Why is he shooting at the parade from his plane? I remember seeing that recently and my jaw dropped. I thought, "Is Batman insane?"
YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE PRINCE MUSIC!

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