Joker's origin

[bstringer]

remember, at the end if Batman Begins, the joker had already a double homicide record, and was already leaving joker cards at the scene of his crimes...leaves me to beleive that he doesnt need an origin, because he already is the joker before The Dark Knight even begins

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Originally Posted by Wesyeed

boo. I want an origin and here's why: We see a man devolve or is it evolve... into the crazy wacko jacko he becomes, similar to what we saw in begins with batman...well sort-of, since he already was angry and obsessed with criminals in the beginning, but then we w3re shown a bunch of flashbacks that told the story of where his motivation came from... so if they go that route I wouldn't mind.

but having batman be blamed for joker's condition is an essential part of the character that I don't want to just poof vanish now...

I wholeheartedly agree. I want Joker to start out as a meek, mild-mannered man just trying to get by at his job at the chemical plant but also trying to become a overnight sensation as a standup comedian. He realizes he can't cut it at both, comes home to his pregnant wife and finds out he'll be evicted from his apartment in a week for not paying the rent.

So he turns to organized crime. From "Batman Begins" we learned that he has been known to have done a few arm-robberies. It'll play out here, because the guy is a gambler (hence the Joker card) he likes to make bets, take risks and chances, and ultimately lose in the end. Hence, why he turns to the mob.

As an initiation he dons a red ski-mask (not a hood) and he goes back to the chemical plant.

Jack Napier or whatever name the character will go by before The Joker, suddenly begins freezing up. A few people get shot and killed and now the cops are coming for him and the others.

But before the cops arrive, The Red Hood runs for it while the others deal with Gordon and the cops. Gordon assumes The Red Hood is the gunman and that's why he is running away from him, so after Gordon deals with the goons, he goes after The Red Hood. The Red Hood now seeing his days are numbered, jumps over the railing and into a vat of chemicals.

There inside the chemicals the meek, mild-mannered, shy man we knew from the beginning of the movie and suddenly evolves into the man inside of him. A man who has repressed bad memories in the back of his head but is now bringing them out infront of the world. Relapsing to his former self as a child, The Joker is the part of him who'd be known to pour hot coffee on a dog and scald it, or shove firecrackers down a kid's pants.

This is his former childhood self now brought into the dangerous man that he is.

Hence, no need for a flashback and no need for Batman to step into early. Sure, it goes against Alan Moore, but it'll work because Gordon in "BB" seems to know The Joker better than Batman already.

[Miranda Fox]

Originally Posted by NinjaTurtleFan

I wholeheartedly agree. I want Joker to start out as a meek, mild-mannered man just trying to get by at his job at the chemical plant but also trying to become a overnight sensation as a standup comedian. He realizes he can't cut it at both, comes home to his pregnant wife and finds out he'll be evicted from his apartment in a week for not paying the rent.

So he turns to organized crime. From "Batman Begins" we learned that she has been known to have done a few arm-robberies. It'll play out here, because the guy is a gambler (hence the Joker card) he likes to make bets, take risks and chances, and ultimately lose in the end. Hence, why he turns to the mob.

As an initiation he dons a red ski-mask (not a hood) and he goes back to the chemical plant.

Jack Napier or whatever name the character will go by before The Joker, suddenly begins freezing up. A few people get shot and killed and now the cops are coming for him and the others.

But before the cops arrive, The Red Hood runs for it while the others deal with Gordon and the cops. Gordon assumes The Red Hood is the gunman and that's why he is running away from him, so after Gordon deals with the goons, he goes after The Red Hood. The Red Hood now seeing his days are numbered, jumps over the railing and into a vat of chemicals.

There inside the chemicals the meek, mild-mannered, shy man we knew from the beginning of the movie and suddenly evolves into the man inside of him. A man who has repressed bad memories in the back of his head but is now bringing them out infront of the world. Relapsing to his former self as a child, The Joker is the part of him who'd be known to pour hot coffee on a dog and scald it, or shove firecrackers down a kid's pants.

This is his former childhood self now brought into the dangerous man that he is.

Hence, no need for a flashback and no need for Batman to step into early. Sure, it goes against Alan Moore, but it'll work because Gordon in "BB" seems to know The Joker better than Batman already.

I really like that. Isn't there a non-canon story where, as a child, the Joker murdered animals for fun and kept a macabre gravesite for them? I never read the story myself, but it sounded really interesting.

One origin story someone suggested that I really liked was thus - at the beginning of TDK, we see three guys meet up near the chemical plant. It looks like a meeting between some gangsters but it's actually a setup and two turn and apparently kill the other. They dump the body into the chemical basin to dispose of the evidence but, of course, the man isn't dead.

Gives the Joker an origin without any real specifics.

[Freedom77]

hasn't nolan already said that there will be an origin story. Either way i think it would work well. And I know Nolan will do a great job.

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Originally Posted by Miranda Fox

I really like that. Isn't there a non-canon story where, as a child, the Joker murdered animals for fun and kept a macabre gravesite for them? I never read the story myself, but it sounded really interesting.

One origin story someone suggested that I really liked was thus - at the beginning of TDK, we see three guys meet up near the chemical plant. It looks like a meeting between some gangsters but it's actually a setup and two turn and apparently kill the other. They dump the body into the chemical basin to dispose of the evidence but, of course, the man isn't dead.

Gives the Joker an origin without any real specifics.

Thanks Miranda.

Stay foxxxy.

[Crooklyn]

Originally Posted by Freedom77

hasn't nolan already said that there will be an origin story. Either way i think it would work well. And I know Nolan will do a great job.

No, Nolan said he'd go back to Joker's original roots in the comics, but never mentioned anything about a backstory. I personally don't want any for Joker. It ruins the mystique of his character. Besides, whatever story they'd come up with, I doubt it'd live up to the expectations.

[DeFett]

I wonder if Nolan will try and tie the origin into the end of BB where it could be The Joker is hiding-out underground and gets a extreme dose of fear gas which could transform him into a nutter. - Sorry if that has been mentioned already.

I like the Red Hood idea which was mentioned above.

[Eddie Dean]

I like the idea of Batman finding various clues that explain Joker's origin, but they all lead to different ends.

The Joker's real name should never EVER! be mentioned because it never has in the comics and to the uneducated his name is not Jack Napier so stop bringing that name up. If a Joker origin needs to be shown in TDK then it should be a brief flashback at the beginning much like how in BB young Bruce fell down the well into the cave of bats. But instead have a man with a red hood that covers his face so that we never see it, running away from gunfire and mayhem and falling into a vat of chemicals. So therefore, we get to see how Joker became Joker and also there is still a degree of mystery to him as we do not know what his name was, who he was previously and what he looked like pre-Joker. But like I said only a brief flashback like the start of Begins.

[L0ngsh0t]

Joker should have no origin, he should just be, makes him less human, and more villainous

I actually agree with you I was just saying if one needed to be done then that's what I would like to see. But yes the Joker should be the most vicious, sadistic, remorseless b*stard on the planet. A guy Batman cannot find any background info on, a guy whose actions are completely erratic and a guy that starts to drive Bruce/Batman, Gordon and Dent crazy.

[L0ngsh0t]

Originally Posted by Maniacal

I actually agree with you I was just saying if one needed to be done then that's what I would like to see. But yes the Joker should be the most vicious, sadistic, remorseless b*stard on the planet. A guy Batman cannot find any background info on, a guy whose actions are completely erratic and a guy that starts to drive Bruce/Batman, Gordon and Dent crazy.

My bad if I made it sound like I was challenging you, I was just making a general statement of what I think the Jokers origin should be.

but good, I am glad you agree with me

[cryptic name]

Originally Posted by souvlaki

Argh.... the Joker's name is not Jack Napier, people!

really? what is it then?

[strider]

No back story to the Joker please....I want him to be an ex gang member with a fighting/brawling background, a master thief and almost to the brink of insanity.

[Miranda Fox]

Originally Posted by NinjaTurtleFan

Thanks Miranda.

Stay foxxxy.

Will do!

[COMPO]

Originally Posted by bstringer

remember, at the end if Batman Begins, the joker had already a double homicide record, and was already leaving joker cards at the scene of his crimes...leaves me to beleive that he doesnt need an origin, because he already is the joker before The Dark Knight even begins

But, what if Batman created the Joker between the time of the train wreck and meeting with Gordon. I mean, people have been saying that batman meets gordon one or two weeks later.

[GreenKToo]

no flashback.it takes away the mystery of him.

[Miranda Fox]

Originally Posted by COMPO

But, what if Batman created the Joker between the time of the train wreck and meeting with Gordon. I mean, people have been saying that batman meets gordon one or two weeks later.

It's not impossible.

I do wonder if Nolan and Goyer didn't paint themselves into a corner here - if they say this chemical plant robbery happened between then and the rooftop meeting, it is going to seem like a bit of a retcon.

IMO, it would make more sense to tie his origin in to the events of BB in other ways, if that's the way to go. Maybe he was one of the inmates at Arkham? One thing does seem clear - he didn't appear till after that.

[COMPO]

yeah and we see his origins as Batman tries to capture him. And the Joker reveals to Batman that Leslie is his mother, and that she committed him to a mental institution as a child after he murdered his father, who was abusing her.

And there is a stand off between leslie and Batman. Leslie won't budge in allowing Batman to bring harm to Joker. And Batman won't budge to the fact that he has to bring Joker down.

[the_joker]

I strongly feel there should be a chemical dip, which in turn will need some origin story. Because it will look lame (and confusing for those who haven't seen B89) if the Joker with pale white skin and green hair is running around Gotham with no explanation to why he looks like he does.

[L0ngsh0t]

Originally Posted by Miranda Fox

It's not impossible.

I do wonder if Nolan and Goyer didn't paint themselves into a corner here - if they say this chemical plant robbery happened between then and the rooftop meeting, it is going to seem like a bit of a retcon.

IMO, it would make more sense to tie his origin in to the events of BB in other ways, if that's the way to go. Maybe he was one of the inmates at Arkham? One thing does seem clear - he didn't appear till after that.

If there is a back story I agree with the second part here.

But I am still a 100 percent on going Halloween 1978 on the bit with joker, if you follow me, it wasn't until Halloween 2 that we find out pretty much all of the backstory we know about Micheal Meyers, and from then on he has a purpose, and isn't nearly as frightning, or as creepy, as the emotionless, sentinal that he was in 1. Now I am not saying we make the Joker, an emotionless mute guy, but I do not initially want a motive, or reason the joker does what he does, he just does it, he just is a psychopathic maniac. Now once the relationship between him, and Batman grows, then maybe by the end of the flick his reason is to defeat batman or something.

[Babs Gordon]

I have to agree with that "inmate in arkham" quasi origin too. I'd really prefer not to know much about him though. I'd like to see Batman try to figure him out... where he came from etc. not just his current MO.

[Ronny Shade]

I think Joker should show up with no explaination and lie about how he got that way

[Eddie Dean]

Originally Posted by Ronny Shade

I think Joker should show up with no explaination and lie about how he got that way

I could dig that.

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Originally Posted by Miranda Fox

It's not impossible.

I do wonder if Nolan and Goyer didn't paint themselves into a corner here - if they say this chemical plant robbery happened between then and the rooftop meeting, it is going to seem like a bit of a retcon.

IMO, it would make more sense to tie his origin in to the events of BB in other ways, if that's the way to go. Maybe he was one of the inmates at Arkham? One thing does seem clear - he didn't appear till after that.

Could work but I do agree Nolan and Goyer have sort of painted themselves into a corner. They're either going to have to deliver flashbacks of The Joker's life predating before the accident happen, or they have it where he is a escaped inmate from Arkham on the lam, who is still under the affects of Scarecrow's fear serum. He hides out in an abandoned chemical plant, Batman meets him there, but when The Joker sees him he thinks he's staring at a giant vampire bat like Dracula and jumps into the chemical vat.

This would make sense, but it would totally disregard any origin and Joker's life prior to the accident would only be a mystery. I want the guy to be a guy who you laugh with, but also hate and despise and want to die, but yet you feel sympathetic for.

To me The Joker is like a tortured, disconnected soul. I want to see a meek, mild-mannered man, who has had to put up with so many life struggles that he suddenly just snaps one day.

Like I stated before I want a guy who is struggling standup comedian who works a humdrum job at the chemical plant. He has a pregnant wife who doesn't believe in his dream to make it big, he's going to get evicted from his apartment because he can't pay the rent, he owes a cardshark who's a friend of Sal Maroni's alot of dough, and he needs to make ends meat before he gets his legs broken.

So he joins the mob and then he dons a red mask (not a hood) and then we know the rest.