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Old 05-02-2006, 02:18 AM   #76
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

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Originally Posted by Angry Sentinel
They were in HIS car... running from an eminent threat... and they took the time to stop and turn on the radio???? It was an obvious moment of levity, and the BUTT of the levity, as always, was Cyclops. Again I ask why? Why take this shot at a guy who isn't even in the movie? I'll tell you, because it was the same humor and emotional slapstick that they got in the first movie (which in their minds worked well) that they wanted to take advantage of again in the second movie. They probably even felt it was clever considering Scott wasn't even in the movie... ("we don't even need him in the scene to get these jokes to work"). To me, this scene alone proves that what was done in the first movie was done intenionally. And having Wolverine being the one to make the 'WTF' face underscores their need to make him the Xmen's 'FONZY.
As always?! WTF are you talking about? That was the only moment where Cyclops was the butt of the joke.

Please don't bring up the "you're a dick" line... what was Cyclops supposed to do? Blast Wolverine for making a smartass remark? It's not a good trait of a leader to assault his soldiers for making a smart ass remark when they are on a mission. There were more important things at hand that the team needed to attend to... like saving the lives of millions of New Yorkers...

However, I've listed off the "points" count, if you wanna call it that, to show that Cyclops actually had the "last laugh" more than Wolverine did.

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Old 05-02-2006, 10:00 AM   #77
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

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Please don't bring up the "you're a dick" line... what was Cyclops supposed to do? Blast Wolverine for making a smartass remark? It's not a good trait of a leader to assault his soldiers for making a smart ass remark when they are on a mission. There were more important things at hand that the team needed to attend to... like saving the lives of millions of New Yorkers...
I'm not asking Cyke to DO anything. We are discussing how a character was portrayed. Cyke was put into a position of the 'lesser' of the two characters by even having a scene where Wolverine gets to call him a 'Dick'. Not to mention that this is how the scene resolves itself, with Wolverine being the wittier, smarter, 'kewler', character.

Truthfully it doesn't matter what he could/should do, because this moment like all the rest, underscores what their intenions were by writing and directing the characters this way. Now add in wolverine fights/faceoffs, (Magnus, Mystique, and Sabertooth). And the fact that Wolverine is our viewpoint character and just about any viewer would walk away with the feeling that Wolverine is 'The man'.

Quote:
However, I've listed off the "points" count, if you wanna call it that, to show that Cyclops actually had the "last laugh" more than Wolverine did.
Except that you leave out tons of scenes by Wolverine...

-Taking Cyke's bike (twice)
-Telling Jean that her power is "Putting up with that guy"
-Telling Jean that maybe she's "being held back, by more than Xavier"
-Flipping him the 'Bladed' Finger when he sets off the alarms
-By Simply being the 'A-typical, Hollywood, billy-badass' that WRITERS & DIRECTORS know full well that audiences like.
-And much, much, more

...Seriously Nell, Wolverine OWNED the screen in Xmen, there isn't even a fair comparison. And again this is the most important concept of this discussion. Wolverine's shadow just plain blots out anything done with Cyclop's character to the point where no one cared that Cyke actually had a come back... Wolverine's were always 'kewler' and left him as the ultra hip-super cool, Fonzy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonstar
Quote: Wolverine/ Hugh Jackman = More star power/ better acting chops.
Cyclops/ James Mardsen = Less star power/ lesser acting chops.

Number 1. Marsden doesnt sing and dance and wasn't quite old enough looking to take advantage of the Leading man roles Hugh Jackman got offered due to his success as Wolverine.
So no he didn't get the breaks and wasn't featured as much as wolvie in X1. They focused on logan because he was probably the most recognizable Xman.
Just so we're clear, you do know this was exactly the point I was attempting to make. It was in no means an attempt to down James Mardsen. Simply to illustrate that Wolverine was always intended to be the focal character and that they decided that his 'badass' qualities should be the highlights of the film.

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Old 05-02-2006, 11:03 AM   #78
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I'm not asking Cyke to DO anything. We are discussing how a character was portrayed. Cyke was put into a position of the 'lesser' of the two characters by even having a scene where Wolverine gets to call him a 'Dick'. Not to mention that this is how the scene resolves itself, with Wolverine being the wittier, smarter, 'kewler', character.
Actually, I thought they BOTH came off pretty "cool" in that exchange-- anybody can call someone a dick. It's actually cooler to be able to shrug it off and say "Okay," like Cyke did and do the job instead of getting hot and bothered. It's not like he was conceding that he was a dick-- merely that he knew Wolverine thought that, which he does early on in the comics, too. It was classic buddy-comedy banter. Also,

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Wolverine's were always 'kewler' and left him as the ultra hip-super cool, Fonzy!
Ironic, since Fonzie himself hasn't been cool since roughly 1978. But point taken.

I agree, of course, that there's a general trend toward making Wolverine the centerpiece and marginalizing Cyke. I admit-- as a Wolvie fan, I kinda like that, but I can see it's there. It's happened in the comics, too, after all-- it's the cinematic equivalent of Wolvie being in four titles and a solo series while Cyke is reduced to the occasional mindgame with Emma in Astonishing, a.k.a. The Kitty Pryde Story. (Wow. That sounded harsh toward Astonishing-- which I love. All I'm really trying to say is that this "Wolvie rules, Cyclops who?" trend is fairly true to what's happened to the X-Men in general...)

To me, though, it would only become a real problem if one of two things happened: 1) Scott vanished from the film series entirely, for whatever reason, or 2) Jean left him for Logan. Either of those things would be a betrayal of the character, and clearly done just to let Logan have an upper hand he's never had in the "real" story. Short of them, it's not going to bother me.

But again, that's as a Wolvie fan. If I were a Cyclops fan, I can see where I'd be irritated as heck.

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Old 05-02-2006, 04:21 PM   #79
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LOL, being a wolvie fan I guess I can see why you wouldn't like my 'Fonzy' comparison. But as you say, it is the current trend. Just as I'm sure the Wolverine character won't be thrust into such a major role (in the comics or in movies) as soon as the next character takes the title of 'moneymaker'.

... And people will be making comments like, "Wolverine hasn't been 'kewl' since 2010".

Quote:
Edit... it's the cinematic equivalent of Wolvie being in four titles and a solo series while Cyke is reduced to the occasional mindgame with Emma in Astonishing, a.k.a. The Kitty Pryde Story. (Wow. That sounded harsh toward Astonishing-- which I love.
That's funny, but I completely agree. Even though this is the current situation, I very much so love that book. But Joss is good storyteller, so it doesn't surprise me that he gets me interested in detestable ideas.

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Old 05-02-2006, 05:32 PM   #80
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

Oh come on!

I'm much more of a Cyclops fan than I am of Wolverine... and I didn't feel shortchanged at all in what they did with the Cyclops / Wolverine fued. It felt just like the comics and the cartoons to me.

Honestly, it's my opinion that if you think that Cyclops was just used to raise Wolverine's status in the movie, then you're one of those paranoid people who think that everything is some kind of conspiracy. I know people like that from everything as important as politics, to stuff as petty as movies.

Cyclops and Wolverine fued in the comics and the cartoons. And they do it in the movies. Enough said.

If you want to think about it, Wolverine probably should have more of the "comebacks" or "last words" or whatever. HE IS THE *******. Cyclops isn't. Cyclops is a mature leader. He's not going to go out of his way to make Wolverine look bad. And I found plenty of instances in the movies where Cyclops did put Wolverine in his place.

And I also find it ironic, all of this "Cyclops is used to bring Wolverine up" arguement, but you forget the whole final sequence of X2... When Jean dies, we see a totally in character Cyclops moment, and in the final scene, WOLVERINE CONCEDES TO CYCLOPS. Not that there should have been any competition in the first place... Cyclops and Jean Grey were already together. Whether they were married or engaged is up to interpretation, but the fact is, they were married, and Wolverine was out of line by coming in and trying to take her. There shouldn't have been a competition anyways. But Wolverine made it one. And he conceded to Cyclops.

Maybe I just have the luxury of watching these movies on probably too much of a regular basis. I probably have to take into consideration that not everyone watches these movies as much as I do. And when you haven't seen a movie for awhile, but you start talking about it, the things you talk about begin to influence your opinion.

But I never get sucked into this whole "Cyclops was just Wolverine's foil" or "Storm didn't do anything except fly the jet" talk, because I watch these movies, again like I said, on a most likely unhealthy basis. So I'm seeing what really is happening in these movies. And as much more of a Cyclops fan than a Wolverine fan, I never once felt like Cyclops was just Wolverine's foil.

And I really find the whole discussion over the fued to be quite humorous. I mean, god damnit, this fued is STRAIGHT OUT OF THE COMICS!!!!! How much more accurate do you want? That there was no fued?! And that Cyclops is constantly putting Wolverine "in his place", and coming across as the dick that he isn't, just for the sake of having the upper hand?

For a fued to work properly, it has to go both ways. So yes, Wolverine did get the "last word" in, or whatever you want to call it, on a few occassions. But Cyclops got his in as well. And in the end, the whole purpose for the fued, which was Jean Grey, Wolverine conceded to Cyclops.

I don't know what more you want.

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Old 05-02-2006, 06:17 PM   #81
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1. The camera totally focused on logan after jeans death scene when cyke was crying.

2. No ones saying the fued between wolverine/cyclops is not accurate. its the way that its totally one sided in logans favor that is.

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Old 05-02-2006, 08:50 PM   #82
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Conspiracy theorist??? OK, lol! Talk about dramatic repsonses.

There are two things that exist, for certain, in this world, money & more money. Neither of these are conspiracy, they are fact. Both of these were served by creating a super 'kewl', big daddy character from these films. Especially when one of the individuals, who owns rights to these characters, comes from the toy biz. Believe what you want this is no conspiracy theory, it's business!

We've been over the whole 'Fued' issue and it's a fact that we agree on it being 'present' in the movie. So I agree with you on your "enough said'. However, this discussion was to further seek understanding about it's accuracy.

Whether he "should' or not, is really not an issue. For accuracies sake (by the source material) Cyclops 'is' supposed to be the Super 'kewl', 'wittier' character in these 'fueds'.

How does Wolverine making a concession of Jean being Cyclop's girl, undo the fact that Cyclops has been his stepping stone for two movies? It may redeem wolverine's character from being a total a**hole (and since he makes this concession when everyone believes Jean is dead, it is the LEAST he could do). Actually, this could further illustrate that the writer/director is trying to make sure you LIKE his billy-badass character.

I can assure you, that I have watched both films sufficiently and that this particular opinion is actually more fueled by what I've seen. I've even gone so far as to be 'devil's advocate' on the subject, just to see if I could convince myself differently... I could not. I do think it's possible that your opinions differ because, the comic books that you have read obviously did not leave the impression upon you that it did on other comic book fans. For example, when I read the books, I walked away feeling like Cyclops trumped Wolverine and that he (Cyke) was portrayed as the "kewl" character. Where as comic Wolverine was just a gnarled, dysfunctional, old man, with authority issues. I think if the comic books had made this same impression upon you, then you may be able to agree that this is not the same dynamic portrayed in the movies.

I suppose it is a little trite, but sometimes the little things are what's important. But considering this Fued, or it's portrayal, is IMO a direct reason why Cyclop's character portrayal suffers in the film, then it becomes really relevant when discussing his character portrayal. I have already elaborated on what I believe would be an accurate portrayal of this fued. And I agree, since Cyclops didn't go 'out of his way' to 'trump' Wolverine in the comics, he shouldn't do it in the movies... that would also be inaccurate.

*reads your last paragraph*
Did you just admit that Wolverine 'pwned' Cyclops??

*re-reads your last paragraph*
Oh my, wonders never cease, lol... I think it's pretty obvious that the fued between Cyclops and Wolverine is about much more than Jean. She is a component, but that's all. Their fued is about respect, responsibility, control, and a crap load of psychological issues on both character's behalf. The portion represented in the film over Jean was fairly accurate, but Wolverine's character constantly coming out on top isn't.

I don't actually NEED it to be more accurate, but I would like it to be, especially as a cyclops fan.

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Old 05-02-2006, 09:57 PM   #83
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I'm not even a Cyclops fan. I really dislike Cyclops right now when I read comics. I like Wolverine and he's probably my second or third favorite X-man. And I still got the impression that Cyclops was used as Wolverines foil.

It has nothing to do with paranoid conspiracys, Mr. Nell2ThaIzzay. Singer isn't much of an X-men fan. His favorite character is admittedly (and obviously) Wolverine. Wolverine is the most marketable X-man. Its a STANDARD story-telling tactic to have a foil to the main character, someone whose character is used to build the likeability or "badassity" of the main character. This is exactly Cyclops and Wolverine's relationship in the movie. Just like Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny, except Cyclops isn't shown half as cool as Daffy is.

In the movies Cyclops is not square jawed, uptight and ******* leader. Thats how he is in the comics, where he certainly isn't likeable a lot of the time, but he also has a presence. Can you see movie Cyclops doing this?



no, you cannot. Comic Cyclops gets in Wolverines face and puts him down. He's an alpha male. They both are; and thats why they're rivals.

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Old 05-03-2006, 08:19 AM   #84
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that is a really good example... He didn't even tell Wolverine he was way out of line when he got in his face once in the movies, much less anyone elses.

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Old 05-03-2006, 11:07 AM   #85
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

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I'm not even a Cyclops fan. I really dislike Cyclops right now when I read comics. I like Wolverine and he's probably my second or third favorite X-man. And I still got the impression that Cyclops was used as Wolverines foil.

It has nothing to do with paranoid conspiracys, Mr. Nell2ThaIzzay. Singer isn't much of an X-men fan. His favorite character is admittedly (and obviously) Wolverine. Wolverine is the most marketable X-man. Its a STANDARD story-telling tactic to have a foil to the main character, someone whose character is used to build the likeability or "badassity" of the main character. This is exactly Cyclops and Wolverine's relationship in the movie. Just like Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny, except Cyclops isn't shown half as cool as Daffy is.

In the movies Cyclops is not square jawed, uptight and ******* leader. Thats how he is in the comics, where he certainly isn't likeable a lot of the time, but he also has a presence. Can you see movie Cyclops doing this?



no, you cannot. Comic Cyclops gets in Wolverines face and puts him down. He's an alpha male. They both are; and thats why they're rivals.

Precisely.

That's the exact problem with the movie depiction of Cyclops, who's not the leader of the comicbooks at all (the true leadership is divided among the other principal characters, alternately).

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Old 05-03-2006, 11:07 AM   #86
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Wolverine was and has been the star of the show and Cyclops isn't. Period. We all saw it and we all know it. Singer used Logan as the focal point for the last two films. No amount of spin can change that.

The studio's and Singer's reasons are to obvious to mention.

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Old 05-03-2006, 11:48 AM   #87
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I think the real question being asked here is whether or not the movies have an obligation to remain absolutely true to the comic books. And, if so, to what extent. Many have already pointed out the need to change certain things for practical pruposes, i.e. can't have 40 years' worth of storyline crammed into three films. This makes sense.

So how much should the films exactly reflect the comic books? Well, I think there are a few things to keep in mind, like the many different versions of X-men comics that are out there. Also, let's not forget that a lot of these things are a matter of opinion, which varies from individual to individual. Everyones' perceptions are not the same. So while one person may think that Wolverine's character (or the relationships, or whatever) was totally altered for the sake of some kind of money-making scheme, another person may simply think Bryan Singer was tapping into some deeper themes that other people may have missed.

Personally, I like what Singer has done with the story. If he's altered it, then I think he's altered it for the better. I realize I'm in the minority with this opinion, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

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Old 05-03-2006, 12:08 PM   #88
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Well, for one characterization. If Cyclops has always been the leader in the comics, he should be absolute leader in the movies. No question.

If Iceman has always been a joker in the comics, he should be in the movies.

If Logan only had a crush on jean in the comics, than it should be that way in the movies. Wolverine NEVER tried to come between jean and scott. he respected them both too well to do that. whereas movie logan's trying to play homewrecker.

If Cyke and Logan are equals in the comics, it should be that way in the movies. They are NOT equals in the movies. Cyclops was always more than the butt of jokes or wolverines foil.

Wolverine's character was altrered form the movies. It's mostly a romanticized version of the character. Comics Wolverine was alot nastier, alot viscious, and a lot more efficient. He also had honor to him. I dont see that with singer's logan.

All I'm saying is, be accurate to the characters, their role in the comics, and their relationships. Something these movies havent really done well.

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Old 05-03-2006, 12:16 PM   #89
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I think the real question being asked here is whether or not the movies have an obligation to remain absolutely true to the comic books. And, if so, to what extent.
That is a good question. I made a really sarcastic comment about changing source material on one of these threads (maybe this one)... something to do with altering all source documentation by getting the mass viewing audience enticed with movie adaptations. And that I would start with the Bible.

I think that most of the reasonings behind altering source material have been a little weak. Not because I'm some 'purist', but because most hinge on the concept of not being able to do it the same from one media to the next. This is a little weak to me because everytime someone says it CAN'T be done, time passes and someone accomplishes it. Even with your example (40 years crammed into 2 hours). I just don't think man has reached the pinnacle of it's existence enough to know for certain that this CAN't be done.

I know it sounds crazy, but so did putting a man in tights, flying him around, and have him turn back TIME on the big screen in 1979!! NOT TODAY, BUT 1979!! Once someone does it and the audience loves it, then there will be all kinds of other excuses.

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Edit...Everyones' perceptions are not the same.So while one person may think that Wolverine's character (or the relationships, or whatever) was totally altered for the sake of some kind of money-making scheme, another person may simply think Bryan Singer was tapping into some deeper themes that other people may have missed.
And to be fair, both are quite possibley true. Considering we are not the writer, director, or producers, we can't really speak for them. But using those same differing perceptions, I think it's still possible to ascertain which one of these options is more 'likely' true.

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Old 05-03-2006, 02:33 PM   #90
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

And: if the changes are to make it good, I could understand.

In the specific case of Cyclops, he has been turned, from a focused and heart-aching leader, into just a sentimental bore that could be in one of those boysbands.

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Old 05-03-2006, 04:00 PM   #91
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Still I say: To each, his own. Let's remember, unlike the Bible, it's all fiction anyway. I grant Bryan Singer his artistic license, and gladly.

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Old 05-03-2006, 05:56 PM   #92
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

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I'm not even a Cyclops fan. I really dislike Cyclops right now when I read comics. I like Wolverine and he's probably my second or third favorite X-man. And I still got the impression that Cyclops was used as Wolverines foil.

It has nothing to do with paranoid conspiracys, Mr. Nell2ThaIzzay. Singer isn't much of an X-men fan. His favorite character is admittedly (and obviously) Wolverine. Wolverine is the most marketable X-man. Its a STANDARD story-telling tactic to have a foil to the main character, someone whose character is used to build the likeability or "badassity" of the main character. This is exactly Cyclops and Wolverine's relationship in the movie. Just like Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny, except Cyclops isn't shown half as cool as Daffy is.

In the movies Cyclops is not square jawed, uptight and ******* leader. Thats how he is in the comics, where he certainly isn't likeable a lot of the time, but he also has a presence. Can you see movie Cyclops doing this?



no, you cannot. Comic Cyclops gets in Wolverines face and puts him down. He's an alpha male. They both are; and thats why they're rivals.
...

"No, you're the one who stabbed Rogue through the chest"

"It must burn you up that a boy like me saved your life. You better be careful, I might not be there next time"

Wolverine: "Your bike needs gas." Cyclops: "Fill 'er up!"

That sounds like getting in Wolverine's face to me...

All moments where I thought to myself "PWN3D!!!" because of how Cyclops just punked Wolverine.


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Old 05-03-2006, 09:15 PM   #93
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C'Mon folks...they've been focusing on jean and logan instead of jean and scott, who's relationship got a helluva lot farther. what makes you think they'd get any other realtionships right?
My thoughts exactly.

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Old 05-04-2006, 01:32 PM   #94
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I like the movies but I do agree w\u some things in the movies shouldn't have changed!
i actually thought that if in the first movie they replaced Rogue with Kitty Pryde, and maybe already had Rogue as an adult member of the team, they could have a setup for relationships more close to the comics. all they wouldve had to do was change Magneto's plan.

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Old 05-04-2006, 06:33 PM   #95
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

ALL they would have had to change?

Magneto's plan was what pushed the entire movie forward. It would have been a TOTALLY different movie had Magneto had a different plan.

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Old 05-04-2006, 09:24 PM   #96
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ALL they would have had to change?

Magneto's plan was what pushed the entire movie forward. It would have been a TOTALLY different movie had Magneto had a different plan.
did it have to be a machine that drained his powers? did he have to kidnap rogue to power it? it couldve been more about magneto gathering parts to get it completed. maybe he really couldve been hunting wolverine because he needed adimantium. theres plenty of things that couldve been altered.

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Old 05-05-2006, 01:53 AM   #97
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

That would have changed many of the dinamics of the movie and made it a totally different movie.

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Old 05-05-2006, 03:16 AM   #98
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

I love the first 2 X-Men movies and I`m a huge fan of the comics...I still think Colossus and Kitty should be attracted to each other in X3 rather then the love triangle....I grew up reading and loving thier relationship

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Old 05-05-2006, 06:47 PM   #99
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

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That would have changed many of the dinamics of the movie and made it a totally different movie.
well its not like it was the greatest story ever written. it wouldnt have hurt to change some things up.

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Old 05-05-2006, 07:30 PM   #100
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Default Re: Now what the hell would've been so hard about getting relationships right?

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i actually thought that if in the first movie they replaced Rogue with Kitty Pryde, and maybe already had Rogue as an adult member of the team, they could have a setup for relationships more close to the comics. all they wouldve had to do was change Magneto's plan.
I agree with that!

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