Justice League Vs Avengers

[larryfilmmaker]

Originally Posted by Andy C.

I don't have that one, but I've got one of Supes carrying Thor's hammer and Cap's shield if you're interested.

cool, post it or send it to LarryFilmmaker@aol.com and THANKS. I like both Marvel and DC... but my fav is Supes.

[Fantasyartist]

I was going to post a separate Thor vs Superman article but as the question has been posed by several others, I think I might as well put it here. Superman, for all of his power is basically a MAN(from an alien planet to boot) whereas Thor, of course is a deity( The Hulk of course is stronger than even The Asgardian Avenger, but the Hulk is not a god), and by his own admission a deity's power(even a pagan one's) has to be stronger than any man's-even a "Super"-man's!

Terry

[The Question]

Well, first off, The Hulk is not stronger than Thor. They're equals. And, Thor has been bested by non gods before. That being said, the fact that Superman caught Thor's hammer is ludicrous. That should have at least broken his hand.

[MajinShenron]

Well, first off, The Hulk is not stronger than Thor.

The fact Hulk beat Thor even while Thor has the hammer several times doesn't mean anything, right?

[The Question]

When has that happened? Thor and The Hulk are supposed to be equals in strength.

[Metropolis_Man]

I'm going with the Justice Leauge, but thats mainly because I'm more of DC fan. I don't know too much about the Avengers, it would definately be a good fight though.

[MajinShenron]

When has that happened? Thor and The Hulk are supposed to be equals in strength.

Also, if I remember correctly Hulk beat Thor in the Ultimates. And lastly, I dont like to use animated series for an example but in the Ultimate Avengers movie Hulk beat Thor.

[The Question]

1) Nice red x's.

2) The Ultimates is out of continuity. And The Hulk did not beat Thor in that. Thor laid down some impressive blows, but then got overconfidant and The Hulk swatted him asside.

3) The acrtoon is also not in continuity.

[larryfilmmaker]

Originally Posted by The Question

1) Nice red x's.

2) The Ultimates is out of continuity. And The Hulk did not beat Thor in that. Thor laid down some impressive blows, but then got overconfidant and The Hulk swatted him asside.

3) The acrtoon is also not in continuity.

See... here is where all "this guy vs. that guy" debates get dumb. There is NO REAL CONTINUITY in comic books... and no set power levels. The Hulk, Thor, Superman, Batman, Daredevil, Spidey, Wolverine, Cyclops, and every other superhero ever have all had various power levels because they change in order to tell different stories. For example... you can't use the Superman who is invulnerable to physical harm in the "Death of Superman" storyline. You can't have the Cyclops who's blasts "blow a hole through a mountain" get beat by Wolverine. You can't have Batman beat Superman if Superman is going full out and not giving Bats a second to even think about moving before he's dead. Power levels do not exist in comics. They are altered in order to tell different kinds of stories. Characters are great because of who they are and what they represent, not because they are a 9 on the power scale or a "class 100" or whatever that means.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

See... here is where all "this guy vs. that guy" debates get dumb. There is NO REAL CONTINUITY in comic books...

Yes there is.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

and no set power levels.

Yes there are.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

The Hulk, Thor, Superman, Batman, Daredevil, Spidey, Wolverine, Cyclops, and every other superhero ever have all had various power levels because they change in order to tell different stories.

Which is what I call "lazy writing."

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

For example... you can't use the Superman who is invulnerable to physical harm in the "Death of Superman" storyline.

Superman had already been severely powered down from Pre Crisis levels before that storyline. He wasn't some infalible god at that point. Besides, all it takes to kill some one who is "invulnerable to physical harm" is more physical harm than he's faced as of yet. Everyone and everything has a breaking point.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

You can't have the Cyclops who's blasts "blow a hole through a mountain" get beat by Wolverine.

I don't think Cyclopse's blasts were ever described to be able to blow a whole in a mountain anywhere outside of the movie. And I don't think Wolverine's beaten him, either.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

You can't have Batman beat Superman if Superman is going full out and not giving Bats a second to even think about moving before he's dead.

Batman's never beaten Superman when Supes was going all out. The only time Batman beat Superman was in Hush. And there, Superman was fighting off mind control, and thus not fighting anywhere near his peak capacity, and Batman didn't so much win as "barely survive until he could snap Superman out of it."

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Power levels do not exist in comics.

Yes they do.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

They are altered in order to tell different kinds of stories.

Which is bad writing.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Characters are great because of who they are and what they represent, not because they are a 9 on the power scale or a "class 100" or whatever that means.

Their power levels have nothing to do with how good a character they are. The Question is one of my favorite characters, and I know Captain America would kick his ass all over creation. But if a character does have power levels, you have to write them in those power levels. Otherwise, it's just damned lazy.

[larryfilmmaker]

in the Superman/Batman books (the new ones) Superman carries Darkseid from the Kent farm to the sun in about 2 seconds. I bet you can find about 8 billion comics of the current "continuity" that don't have him anywhere near that fast. Changing levels for story telling isn't lazy writing... you put the character where you as a writer see him or her. For example, some people would have Supes as a character who is equal to a GL, Thor, etc... while other writers set him at different levels to tell their stories. For example...
(quoted)
In an interview with Joe Casey on Alvaro's ComicBoards, he stated that Superman under his penmanship could re-arrange the Solar System and tear a star apart. "I've always seen Superman as this completely over-the-top, fantastic character who has *no* limits whatsoever," said Casey. In Superman's probe-busting mode, "Superman is unbeatable."
(quoted)

Now, there are plenty of writers who don't see Superman as unbeatable no matter what. The Death of Superman certainly didn't see him that way... or maybe they did, as he was resurrected and defeated Doomsday in the long run. Frank Miller agreed with Casey originally, but his final draft of DKR was different from the original and had Supes beaten by Batman, Robin, and Green Arrow. Now I know that's "out of continuity" but it all depends on where people see the characters. It's not power levels that are important at all... it's the character and how you use him or her to tell the story. Sometimes Spidey can beat up Venom. Sometimes he can't. Sometimes the Juggernaut is unstoppable. Sometimes Hulk stops him. Whatever story somebody wants to tell is more important than set power levels. With as many "current continuity" books as there are out there, it's impossible to say there really is any continuity because they contradict each other so much. But ya know what... that doesn't matter at all because story telling is by far more important than power levels and stats. I'm a huge fan of a lot of different characters and the power levels mean nothing to me. If you make Superman a complete wimp, I think that sucks because his character revolves around him being the top dog. If you make Wolverine team captain and a gentleman, that betrays his character... not giving him a slower or faster healing factor. I do think that if there had to be set power levels, it would fit in the Marvel Universe but probably never in DC. DC is it's own mythology and mythologies have numerous interpretations of each character.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

in the Superman/Batman books (the new ones) Superman carries Darkseid from the Kent farm to the sun in about 2 seconds. I bet you can find about 8 billion comics of the current "continuity" that don't have him anywhere near that fast.

Which is one of the many problems I had with that story arc.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Changing levels for story telling isn't lazy writing... you put the character where you as a writer see him or her.

Yes, it is lazy writing. These characters have established power levels. You don;t follow them, you're just being lazy about it.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

For example, some people would have Supes as a character who is equal to a GL, Thor, etc... while other writers set him at different levels to tell their stories. For example...
(quoted)
In an interview with Joe Casey on Alvaro's ComicBoards, he stated that Superman under his penmanship could re-arrange the Solar System and tear a star apart. "I've always seen Superman as this completely over-the-top, fantastic character who has *no* limits whatsoever," said Casey. In Superman's probe-busting mode, "Superman is unbeatable."
(quoted)

And if anyone wrote Superman like that, I would be quite pissed. Not only because it's completely ridiculous, but because it flies in the face of his established power levels.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Now, there are plenty of writers who don't see Superman as unbeatable no matter what. The Death of Superman certainly didn't see him that way... or maybe they did, as he was resurrected and defeated Doomsday in the long run.

Superman being resurected didn;t come from his powers, but from outside influence. And Doomsday's been completely wussified by DC as of late. Which pisses me off, because his established power levels say he should be one of the most powerful beings in DC shy of the cosmics and the mystics.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Frank Miller agreed with Casey originally, but his final draft of DKR was different from the original and had Supes beaten by Batman, Robin, and Green Arrow. Now I know that's "out of continuity" but it all depends on where people see the characters. It's not power levels that are important at all... it's the character and how you use him or her to tell the story.

But to completely ignore the power levels is lazy writing. It shows a lack of respect for the continuity.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Sometimes Spidey can beat up Venom. Sometimes he can't.

I've always thought they were very close to each other in terms of power, so it goes back and forth.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Sometimes the Juggernaut is unstoppable. Sometimes Hulk stops him.

That's not fluctuating power levels. The Hulk is just close enough to The Juggernaut in terms of power to be able to do that. "The Unstoppable Juggernaut" isn;t meant to be taken literally.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Whatever story somebody wants to tell is more important than set power levels.

No, it's not. If a writer can't respect the continuity while writing a story, then that story should be out of continuity.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

With as many "current continuity" books as there are out there, it's impossible to say there really is any continuity because they contradict each other so much.

No, it isn't. There is a continuity. Sure, there are contradictions. But you know what? Back in the day, when there was a contradiction, the reader would mail the comic company about it. You know what would happen? The writers would try to fix it. I miss those days.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

But ya know what... that doesn't matter at all because story telling is by far more important than power levels and stats.

But there is a continuity. If you can;t respect it, then the story sure as hell beter be out of continuity. Otherwise, it's just lazy writing.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

I'm a huge fan of a lot of different characters and the power levels mean nothing to me. If you make Superman a complete wimp, I think that sucks because his character revolves around him being the top dog. If you make Wolverine team captain and a gentleman, that betrays his character... not giving him a slower or faster healing factor. I do think that if there had to be set power levels, it would fit in the Marvel Universe but probably never in DC. DC is it's own mythology and mythologies have numerous interpretations of each character.

That's not an excuse. DC, like Marvel, has a continuity. It has set power levels and personalities and a history. If a writer comes along and decides that he wants Superman to sneeze and cause a galaxy to be torn apart because of it, even when Superman's pre set power levels say that should not happen, you know what? That is lazy writing. The writer can't respect the continuity. Now, if the story were out of continuity, that;s fine. But if you have a continuity, you sure as hell better respect it.

[larryfilmmaker]

Well, with hundreds of writers over the last 70 years, it's hard to say which guy has the right to establish a character's power level for everybody else to follow. "How many feet can Spider-Man jump approximately? Oh, I had him jump 30 but here on this trading card it says only 20 so I guess Spider-Man has to fail, fall into the canyon, and die. It doesn't make sense, but hell... I stuck to the continuity." The current "continuity" in any comic book series contradicts itself... so how do we know which comic book is loyal and which is wrong? I stand by saying that debating power levels is silly and that character and story stand above all else. It's not lazy, it's just a different way of doing things. Whether in fantasy superhero land, or the real world, people are allowed to disagree and it doesn't make them lazy. I say Superman uses Thor's hammer to wipe his ass, some writers disagree. Who's right? Neither. Who's wrong? Neither... so long as the story does both of them justice as characters.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Well, with hundreds of writers over the last 70 years, it's hard to say which guy has the right to establish a character's power level for everybody else to follow. "How many feet can Spider-Man jump approximately? Oh, I had him jump 30 but here on this trading card it says only 20 so I guess Spider-Man has to fail, fall into the canyon, and die. It doesn't make sense, but hell... I stuck to the continuity."

You do realize that this doesn;t have to happen at all, right? The writer can simply write the story to acomidate the character's pre set abilities.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

The current "continuity" in any comic book series contradicts itself...

Not all the time. When that does happen, it's the fault of lazy writers.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

so how do we know which comic book is loyal and which is wrong? I stand by saying that debating power levels is silly and that character and story stand above all else.

That's true. Story is important. But if you are working within a continuity, you have to follow that continuity. Otherwise, don't write the story in continuity.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

It's not lazy, it's just a different way of doing things.

And that way of doing things is lazy. Or, if they're not being lazy, they;re just disrespectful to the continuity.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

Whether in fantasy superhero land, or the real world, people are allowed to disagree and it doesn't make them lazy.

If you can't take the effort to write the characters based on the continuity set before you, you are just being damned lazy about it.

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

I say Superman uses Thor's hammer to wipe his ass, some writers disagree. Who's right? Neither. Who's wrong? Neither... so long as the story does both of them justice as characters.

No. If the continuity says that characters are capable of specific things, then characters are capable of specific things. If you don;t follow that, don't write the story in continuity. Otherwise, you;re just being a lazy *******.

Originally Posted by The Question

I doubt that in a battle situation, Batman would be calmly "analyzing their oponents." In a fight like that, he'd be forced to make stuff up on the fly. And also, remember, The Avengers are not idiots, and they are capable of tactical thinking themselves (hell, Cap is probably just as smart as Batman is). Wanda and Thor, pooling theri powers, could scatter the League apart. And, like I said, The Vision would atempt to take out their heavy hitters by doing what I described. It could easily go either way.

I think everyone is ignoring how fast Superman is. Why, in heaven's name, would Superman sit still for the Vision to fall on him, and a fraction of a second warning would be enough time for him not to be there (and remember - he can hear the massive object falling - no way he could be surprised). That weapon could be turned against the Vision very easily. The vision starts his fall, Superman flies above him, and barrels down at full speed to connect as the vision hits the (now vacant) ground. Goodbye android. Of course, the Vision is smart enought to know this could happen so probably wouldn't even attempt it.

Overall, the telepathic link would probably turn the tide

[The Question]

Superman smacks Vision into the ground, he's still hit by the shockwave. Not the brunt of the hit, but it'd hurt. And hell, the first time the Vision tried this was on an oponent with a good deal of super speed. It worked because said oponent was distracted at the time. If Superman's busy trading blows with Thor, he's going to be distracted.

Originally Posted by Lord Melo

Just re-read rosters. I'd say you'd have to go with this lineup for a decent fight:

Partial JLA:
Superman
Green Lantern
Martian Manhunter
Wonder Woman
Batman
The Flash

Avengers:
Captain America
Thor
Iron Man
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Giant Man
Wasp
Vision
ADD Fantastic Four as cannon fodder
ADD core X-Men as distraction (Without Phoenix this is still a bloodbath. With Phoenix JLA is hurting).


Then you'd have a decent fight.
But bring along Supergirl or Captain Atom, game seriously over.

Let the League add Dr. Fate and / or Zatanna as well. The League wouldn't be hurting at all.

Originally Posted by The Question

Superman smacks Vision into the ground, he's still hit by the shockwave. Not the brunt of the hit, but it'd hurt. And hell, the first time the Vision tried this was on an oponent with a good deal of super speed. It worked because said oponent was distracted at the time. If Superman's busy trading blows with Thor, he's going to be distracted.

Let's see: Superman can hear the object falling and a fraction of a second warning would be enought for him not to be there. Thor isn't near that fast. Offhand, the odd are that the ploy would only success in taking out Thor (which it would definitely do). Shock wave: sure, Aside from Superman and Flash (both of whom could clear the area), the Vision probably just took out both the JLA and Avengers - or at least the ones that Superman and Flash couldn't get transported out of the way. A weapon that takes out your team isn't a very good weapon.

[saint sinner x]

Thor is stronger than superman and faster than superman and Thor is trained in the arts of war, being a superbly skilled warrior, highly proficient in hand-to-hand combat, swordsmanship, and hammer throwing. Also for those of you who thinks superman can take him down just have this in mind that thor As the son of Odin and Gaea, Thor's strength, endurance and resistance to injury are greater than the vast majority of his superhuman race. He is extremely long-lived (though not completely immune to aging), immune to conventional disease, and highly resistant to injury. His flesh and bones are several times denser than a human's.
As Lord of Asgard, Thor possesses the Odinforce, which enables him to tap into the near-infinite resources of cosmic and mystical, enhancing all of his abilities. With the vast magical power of the Odinforce, Thor was able to even dent Captain America’s shield with Mjolnir. That's right he was able to dent Captain America's so called undestructable shield. I also forgot to mention that he moves at the speed of light and can conjure thunderbolts and remember superman is not as fast as the speed of light just in case some of you don't know how fast is speed of light well speed of light is about 180,000 miles per second that means if i'm in new york and your in pennsylvania i can get to you in 1second.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by MSatterwhite

Let's see: Superman can hear the object falling and a fraction of a second warning would be enought for him not to be there. Thor isn't near that fast. Offhand, the odd are that the ploy would only success in taking out Thor (which it would definitely do). Shock wave: sure, Aside from Superman and Flash (both of whom could clear the area), the Vision probably just took out both the JLA and Avengers - or at least the ones that Superman and Flash couldn't get transported out of the way. A weapon that takes out your team isn't a very good weapon.

The thing is, Superman isn't infalible. He's been hit by things coming right at him alot. He wouldn't be focusing on The Vision during the entire fight, and would probably be distracted by everything else that was going on.

[hippie_hunter]

Justice League of America (assumed)
Superman (Clark Kent/Kal-El)
Batman (Bruce Wayne)
Wonder Woman (Diana)
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
Black Canary (Dinah Lance)
Booster Gold (Michael Carter)
Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)
Firestorm (Jason Rusch)
Zatanna Zatara
Cyborg (Victor Stone)

Avengers
Captain America (Steve Rodgers)
Iron Man (Tony Stark)
Spider-Man (Peter Parker)
Spider-Woman (Jessica Jones)
Luke Cage/Power Man
Wolverine (James Howlett/Logan)
Sentry (Robert Reynolds)
Ronin/Echo (Maya Lopez)

The Justice League wins by a long shot

[newmexneon]

Originally Posted by saint sinner x

Thor is stronger than superman and faster than superman and Thor is trained in the arts of war, being a superbly skilled warrior, highly proficient in hand-to-hand combat, swordsmanship, and hammer throwing. Also for those of you who thinks superman can take him down just have this in mind that thor As the son of Odin and Gaea, Thor's strength, endurance and resistance to injury are greater than the vast majority of his superhuman race. He is extremely long-lived (though not completely immune to aging), immune to conventional disease, and highly resistant to injury. His flesh and bones are several times denser than a human's.
As Lord of Asgard, Thor possesses the Odinforce, which enables him to tap into the near-infinite resources of cosmic and mystical, enhancing all of his abilities. With the vast magical power of the Odinforce, Thor was able to even dent Captain America’s shield with Mjolnir. That's right he was able to dent Captain America's so called undestructable shield. I also forgot to mention that he moves at the speed of light and can conjure thunderbolts and remember superman is not as fast as the speed of light just in case some of you don't know how fast is speed of light well speed of light is about 180,000 miles per second that means if i'm in new york and your in pennsylvania i can get to you in 1second.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[saint sinner x]

What did i pist you off because deep down you know i'm right? if you think that superman can take out thor then you obviously do not read thor comics. That's whats wrong with you superman fanboys outthere you guys think he's like some type of god when he has been defeated over and over again, A god in my book would be galactus, green lantern, thanos, silver surfer, pheonix etc.... Not superman.

[larryfilmmaker]

Originally Posted by saint sinner x

What did i pist you off because deep down you know i'm right? if you think that superman can take out thor then you obviously do not read thor comics. That's whats wrong with you superman fanboys outthere you guys think he's like some type of god when he has been defeated over and over again, A god in my book would be galactus, green lantern, thanos, silver surfer, pheonix etc.... Not superman.

boy there sure are a lot of Gods out there who'd get their asses kicked by Supes :0)

[JTStarkiller]

I'm a DC person, so I'm a little biased. I'd have to go with the Justice league. Although I did just see the Ultimate Avengers movie, and it was pretty entertaining. But nothing beats JL/JLU.

If this is a vs. thread about who would win in a fight, I have no idea.