Peter David strikes again!

[Gregatron]

Well, I was browsing through the latest Comics Buyer's Guide, and I noticed that Peter David's column is basically yet another defense of "The Other". It seems as though every...other (ahem) article the man writes these days is expressly designed to defend that story and the changes it has wrought upon Spider-Man.

In the latest article, he defends the stingers and such by saying that what makes characters like Spider-Man "iconic" is their ability to withstand such changes and still remain recognizable.

At the end, he suggests that Wonder Woman get herself some stingers next.

I kid you not.

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by Gregatron

Well, I was browsing through the latest Comics Buyer's Guide, and I noticed that Peter David's column is basically yet another defense of "The Other". It seems as though every...other (ahem) article the man writes these days is expressly designed to defend that story and the changes it has wrought upon Spider-Man.

In the latest article, he defends the stingers and such by saying that what makes characters like Spider-Man "iconic" is their ability to withstand such changes and still remain recognizable.

At the end, he suggests that Wonder Woman get herself some stingers next.

I kid you not.

His next column will be to suggest that Spidey should get a Double-D brazier.

[Gregatron]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

His next column will be to suggest that Spidey should get a Double-D brazier.

No kidding.


A few articles back, he basically said that all of the recent changes are justified because Spider-Man is available in so many different forms now (comics, cartoons, movies, video games, novels, etc), and brought out the "kids who claim to be Spidey's biggest fans but have never read the comics" card.

[stillanerd]

It's not surprising considering how Marvel mantra these days with regards to Spider-Man is that "We haven't really changed Spider-Man. He's still the same character." It's even more apparent when you read what Peter David has said about Uncle Ben being back.

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/show...5&pagenumber=2

Originally Posted by Peter David

Let's say, just for laughs...just for pure speculation, and I'm not saying that's what I've done, let's just say for discussion's sake...that Uncle Ben really has returned, in the flesh, and becomes a permanent part of Peter's life again. It does nothing to invalidate the lessons Peter learned from that day, and nothing to undermine all the good he has subsequently done because of it. "With great power comes great responsibility" can never be undermined, can never be rendered meaningless. That's what makes it so powerful.

[Gregatron]

I find it interesting that no one's ever really tried to bring Ben back (even as an android or such)...until now.


Who needs any stupid lessons about responsibility when a time warp or some other such plot device will restore that which you lost forever due to your own carelessness? Right?


Maybe Spider-Man should go back to being a conceited tv star. That'll be very "realistic" and "relevant" in today's world of "Marshall Mcluhan was right" celebrity-worshipping garbage like Fox's "American ***hole". Sales'll go through the roof!

[Effect]

Actually as much as I dislke bring Ben back, it really doesn't undermine the lesson Peter learn. Ben was basiclly a plot device in that regard I think. He was killed so Peter would learn that he should use his power wisesly or there can be serious consequences to his actions. He's learned that and has taken it to heart. Ben being alive wouldn't undo it I feel.

I'm just seriously against it because of the hell and grief it's going to cause May. The poor woman has been through enough. I don't care how strong she is, there is a limit I feel. She's just finally starting to move on. Granted if it really is Ben I would hope she would love to be with him again and him with her. They get a nice apartment together and spend their rest of their lives in some nice warm location away from all the super villians. Sure Peter would love that for them.

Knowing how writers like to bring the drama, well a lot the times force it, I doubt it will be that simple if he really is brought back. They'll most likely have her being torn between Ben and whatever the other guy's name is. Seriously, this comic doesn't need the elderly love triangle to any degree. Teen love triangles are already annoying and frustrating. People are tired of the whole MJ/Gwen thing with Gwen even being dead. I've always felt those feelings just get worse as you up the age range. That and the uncomfortable feeling increases as well at times. Just more forced angst.

[Gregatron]

Originally Posted by Effect

Actually as much as I dislke bring Ben back, it really doesn't undermine the lesson Peter learn. Ben was basiclly a plot device in that regard I think. He was killed so Peter would learn that he should use his power wisesly or there can be serious consequences to his actions. He's learned that and has taken it to heart. Ben being alive wouldn't undo it I feel.

I'm just seriously against it because of the hell and grief it's going to cause May. The poor woman has been through enough. I don't care how strong she is, there is a limit I feel. She's just finally starting to move on. Granted if it really is Ben I would hope she would love to be with him again and him with her. They get a nice apartment together and spend their rest of their lives in some nice warm location away from all the super villians. Sure Peter would love that for them.

Knowing how writers like to bring the drama, well a lot the times force it, I doubt it will be that simple if he really is brought back. They'll most likely have her being torn between Ben and whatever the other guy's name is. Seriously, this comic doesn't need the elderly love triangle to any degree. Teen love triangles are already annoying and frustrating. People are tired of the whole MJ/Gwen thing with Gwen even being dead. I've always felt those feelings just get worse as you up the age range. That and the uncomfortable feeling increases as well at times. Just more forced angst.

When Peter lost Ben, he lost someone he could never get back due to his own selfishness and ego.

Bringing Ben back in any way, shape, or form destroys that.

"Just kidding! Tee hee!"


All we need is for Gwen to come back, then the list of "character who will never be brought back" (y'know, like Bucky and Uncle Ben) can be thrown in a trash can, along wityh everything else that made Spider-Man special.

[ben_reilly_s_s]

Don't forget, Harry Osborn is still dead.

[ragingdemon155]

Originally Posted by ben_reilly_s_s

Don't forget, Harry Osborn is still dead.

You know that Marvel is just dying to undo that though.

[Dragon]

I'm not concerned about Ben returing because it would undermine the 'With Great Power.." thing.

I'm just sick of Death not meaning anything for Marvel, and one of the most tragic events in Peter's life being turned into trash just because Marvel can't come up with any new ideas.

Didn't Peter David even say in a FNSM pre-release interview that Ben had to stay dead? Way to show that integrity.

[TheWhiteSpider]

Originally Posted by Dragon

I'm not concerned about Ben returing because it would undermine the 'With Great Power.." thing.

I'm highly concerned Dragon. Bringing back Ben with the notion: "Peter still learned that With.." diminishes Peter's origin and 40+ year history, making it no more important or significant than the following: Aunt May's [actress'] "death," the House of M universe, and/or any other gimmick or event story where the hero "carries with him" the after affects of things that happened, or lives lived, but not really.

It would be no different than the writers having Peter awaken the morning after the spider bite, having been shown the future that awaited him if he failed to use his spider-god given powers wisely. Peter still remembers that whole history, after all. He still knows all those lessons of life. Does it matter that is was all a dream? Does it matter if the entire Spider-Man mythos was a really long "What If" as long as there's a lasting impact?

Some writers will use any excuse they can think of to rerender, redefine or otherwise alter the past to their liking, while attempting to feed us the line that "all is as it's ever been." The Spidey you followed for 20 years was made by the Jackal, but why should you care? Here's another Spidey that's even better! Gwen bore goblin kids, but she's the same sweet girl you always knew. Ben never died, Spidey is a mystic vessel, MJ knew Uncle Ben was alive but was ashamed about the kiss they shared in her troubled youth -- the night Ben went for a walk after his argument with that unreasonable May Parker. But don't worry, nothing. has. changed.

Marvel is essentially telling us: "The history of these characters, the 2,000 stories before yesterday and the themes of the aforementioned no longer matter. All that matters is that you and the character[s] remember something like that occuring. Now, buy our repackaged, star-creator-customized characters and shut up."

Marvel is lucky they have the film profits, their awareness and audience to keep them relevant, or they'd be walking the streets with their pockets inside out. Again.

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by TheWhiteSpider

I'm highly concerned Dragon. Bringing back Ben with the notion: "Peter still learned that With.." diminishes Peter's origin and 40+ year history, making it no more important or significant than the following: Aunt May's [actress'] "death," the House of M universe, and/or any other gimmick or event story where the hero "carries with him" the after affects of things that happened, or lives lived, but not really.

It would be no different than the writers having Peter awaken the morning after the spider bite, having been shown the future that awaited him if he failed to use his spider-god given powers wisely. Peter still remembers that whole history, after all. He still knows all those lessons of life. Does it matter that is was all a dream? Does it matter if the entire Spider-Man mythos was a really long "What If" as long as there's a lasting impact?

Some writers will use any excuse they can think of to rerender, redefine or otherwise alter the past to their liking, while attempting to feed us the line that "all is as it's ever been." The Spidey you followed for 20 years was made by the Jackal, but why should you care? Here's another Spidey that's even better! Gwen bore goblin kids, but she's the same sweet girl you always knew. Ben never died, Spidey is a mystic vessel, MJ knew Uncle Ben was alive but was ashamed about the kiss they shared in her troubled youth -- the night Ben went for a walk after his argument with that unreasonable May Parker. But don't worry, nothing. has. changed.

Marvel is essentially telling us: "The history of these characters, the 2,000 stories before yesterday and the themes of the aforementioned no longer matter. All that matters is that you and the character[s] remember something like that occuring. Now, buy our repackaged, star-creator-customized characters and shut up."

Marvel is lucky they have the film profits, their awareness and audience to keep them relevant, or they'd be walking the streets with their pockets inside out. Again.

Exactly, WS, and something I addressed as part of a thread on how Marvel attitude towards Spider-Man ever since JMS came on board is to essentially treat the character as if he hadn't existed prior to JMS (or Bendis for that matter) came on board, regard everything that happened to Spidey as backstory, start with what has the appearance of his classical template, then start systematically "deconstructing" the character before going back to the status quo--all the while claiming that the character hasn't really changed.

Characters are like houses: there's a particular foundation which contain the character's bedrock principals and then there's the structure that gives the house shape. There are three ways one can do to a house to "improve" it. One way is to simply clean it, a little polishing here, a little vaccuming there--enough to get all the dust, gunk, and foulness out. Perhaps some furniture has to be moved around or replaced all together, but, in the end, it's still the same house.

Another way is if you decide to add on to the existing house, and can be simple as repainting the bedroom or as complex and arduous as expanding the kitchen. A few walls will get knocked down in the process perhaps and maybe the neighboors will question your sense of taste, but still, for the most part, it's still the same house, just expanded and redecorated.

The last option is far more drastic--it involves demolishion. Using a bulldozer, wrecking ball, or dynamite, you completely destory the structure of your house. Then, after sifting through the wreckage, you start to rebuild the house from the leftover scraps or bring in some new materials since some of the house can never be replaced. Pretty soon, a new house is built over top of the existing foundation which, hopefully, is still intact and stable. Now, lets say a neighboor comes over and asks you, the owner of the house, "Why did you destroy your house and build a whole new one? Your old house looked fine." Your response? "Oh, but it's really the same old house. Sure, it looks completely different, but the foundation is the same and intact, and that's all that matters anyway. So I haven't really changed much if you think about it."

Guess which "home improvement" option Marvel seems to be doing with Spider-Man as of late?

[Dyeathrose]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

His next column will be to suggest that Spidey should get a Double-D brazier.

But more importantly, would he still be recognizable?? (Sorry, I just had to say that. I'm almost afraid they just might make that happen for the shock value.)

To see Uncle Ben being brought back in any form is the perfect example of how Marvel really does view death, or any shape of it. Death is nothing more than a perfect plot device that is only there to be used and emotional chain-jerking for readers and the characters. Personally, I was glad when the Gwen clone left; no doubt I love her as a character, but I'd never want to see her again, in any form. I get the creeping feeling Harry is going to return when SM3 draws closer, and not only does that take away from his final retribution of saving Peter from his own demons, but it takes away from the dynamic of the man they opted to bring back for the Clone Saga, Norman! Not only that, but it unravels the need for the Goblin Brats in the first place. I see Ben returning as nothing more than something to tug at Aunt May, who I was more than happy to see get some peace with Jarvis. No doubt she loves Ben, and would probably be more than happy to return to him and live life as it was, but that shouldn't happen.

I feel worse for May than Peter, who could still see "Great power; great responsibility", but it falls flat for me. After all, why bother? Wait a while, it'll rectify itself. If someone dies, don't fret, they'll be back soon enough. Or, while bringing Ben back, why not have the burgular follow him too? Then shoot him again...while learning more about him...and how he's really a totem that is sworn enemies with the Spider Totem...

If David really felt the need to justify The Other repeatedly, I'd think that meant something fell flat. After all, I don't think Marvel would really pay so much mind to just a couple of loud people. As bitter as I feel, I'd tell him to just give the stingers little flat ends, so he can dig holes into the ground and wait to ambush villians. Breeds of spiders do that, and it'd be no problem, since Spidey is iconic enough that through the dirt, we'd know it's him.

Okay, I've calm down now.

[Grim Goblin]

PAD is an ass.

With that said, I reiterate my hopes that he uses his little creation, Hobgoblin 2211, to fix the last few years worth of mistakes in Spider-Man canon. Say it with me people, Retcon Bombs, Retcon Bombs, RETCON !!!

Sorry about that, but it would fix everything so quickly .

[Gabba Gabba Hey]

Originally Posted by Grim Goblin

PAD is an ass.

But I digress...

[Cyclops]

If he was truly confident that it was the right thing to do, he wouldn't have to defend it so often.

[shinlyle]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

It's not surprising considering how Marvel mantra these days with regards to Spider-Man is that "We haven't really changed Spider-Man. He's still the same character." It's even more apparent when you read what Peter David has said about Uncle Ben being back.

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/show...5&pagenumber=2

With this horse s***, I'm pretty certain that I will be dropping FNSM.

Later, PAD...you could have been great...now, you're nothing but another JMS lackey....and yes, it hurts me to say that. It hurts me to drop the title (seeing as how I am a HUGE Weiringo fan), but I can't condone this crap.

On top of it all, he's saying that he hasn't neccesarily brought back Unlce Ben, yet, in the back of the FNSM issue in question, it says "UNCLE BEN IS BACK"....

What the hell, Marvel?! Do you guys even give a flying **** what happens to your characters anymore?! Sins Past, The Other, Iron Spidey, Uncle Ben being brought back from the dead, Spidey's secret identity being revealed to every hero in the Marvel Universe in the span of a year....I'd say you done' give a rat's ass.

Look at the state of it! Spider-Man STABBED a guy through his ARMS and then ATE his HEAD. You don't think this was out of character?! Let me guess...."Peter was under the control of 'The Spider' ", right? Bull****.

Peter has been controlled by the Jackal, the Ringmaster, a gamma virus, a Symbiote (Or two), and manipulated by every other force known to man....and he's NEVER killed ANYONE....and you expect me to belive that some ****ing hippie named Morlun who has less backstory than the damn Looter is the one foe who's earned this fate?! Norman Osborn killed Spider-Man's first true love, kidnapped/killed his daughter before he or MJ could even hold her, and buried Aunt May alive, and MORLUN is the one Spidey kills?!

Do you people even READ THE COMICS?!?!CAN YOU READ?!?!

Yes, I'm venting. I need to. This crap....and yes, naysayers, it is "crap"....needs to be addressed as the second-rate storytelling it is. Hell, the Ultimate Universe manages to stay more original than this, and it is just a modern-day rehashing of the original stories!

Marvel, pull your heads out of your asses. I'm dropping Friendly Neighborhood Spidey as soon as possible, and that'll leave me with just Sensational Spider-Man as far as 616 Spidey titles go. Sure, it means that now, you're getting shorted a whopping 3 dollars less a month, but that's 3 dollars that your hack authors don't get attached to their paychecks. Who knows...maybe the rest of the brainwashed comic-reading public will wake-up and cancel this crap from their pull lists as well. It's doubtful, but you never know.

Thanks, Marvel....you're making me dread reading the exploits of my favorite hero. Bastards.






*note: Shinlyle is on a heavy regimen of Nyquil, so this post is saturated with alcohol and fever induced honesty.

[Gregatron]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Exactly, WS, and something I addressed as part of a thread on how Marvel attitude towards Spider-Man ever since JMS came on board is to essentially treat the character as if he hadn't existed prior to JMS (or Bendis for that matter) came on board, regard everything that happened to Spidey as backstory, start with what has the appearance of his classical template, then start systematically "deconstructing" the character before going back to the status quo--all the while claiming that the character hasn't really changed.

Characters are like houses: there's a particular foundation which contain the character's bedrock principals and then there's the structure that gives the house shape. There are three ways one can do to a house to "improve" it. One way is to simply clean it, a little polishing here, a little vaccuming there--enough to get all the dust, gunk, and foulness out. Perhaps some furniture has to be moved around or replaced all together, but, in the end, it's still the same house.

Another way is if you decide to add on to the existing house, and can be simple as repainting the bedroom or as complex and arduous as expanding the kitchen. A few walls will get knocked down in the process perhaps and maybe the neighboors will question your sense of taste, but still, for the most part, it's still the same house, just expanded and redecorated.

The last option is far more drastic--it involves demolishion. Using a bulldozer, wrecking ball, or dynamite, you completely destory the structure of your house. Then, after sifting through the wreckage, you start to rebuild the house from the leftover scraps or bring in some new materials since some of the house can never be replaced. Pretty soon, a new house is built over top of the existing foundation which, hopefully, is still intact and stable. Now, lets say a neighboor comes over and asks you, the owner of the house, "Why did you destroy your house and build a whole new one? Your old house looked fine." Your response? "Oh, but it's really the same old house. Sure, it looks completely different, but the foundation is the same and intact, and that's all that matters anyway. So I haven't really changed much if you think about it."

Guess which "home improvement" option Marvel seems to be doing with Spider-Man as of late?

Option # 4:

Blowing the house/foundation to atoms and then erecting a strip club above the ruins.

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by Gregatron

Option # 4:

Blowing the house/foundation to atoms and then erecting a strip club above the ruins.

Followed by the homeowner's comments to the neighboors, "Hey if you don't like it, you can always move." Haven't we been getting that a lot lately as well?

[Gregatron]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Followed by the homeowner's comments to the neighboors, "Hey if you don't like it, you can always move." Haven't we been getting that a lot lately as well?

"You can always move to the Ultimate strip club next door, or to the porno movie theater down the street."

[Doc Destruction]

Yep, still glad I stopped collecting Spidey books.

[Marc]

Its funny for all the defencive work (easily dismissed as it is) they don't ever actually talk about the why and reasons of doing it. What is the reason for Ben coming back? Did it NEED to be told? What is the reason for raping Gwen? For destroying the character that is Peter Parker/Spider-Man? Never a single reason to justify their decisions, its always an argument of "well, why can't I?". Arguments denouncing the otherside rather than positive statements for their reasoning. Even facists can take the time to think about a BS reason for an attrocity.

But hey it sells right, and when those kids buying this crap grow a little older and look back they'll think "You know what, that was complete ****." and not bother coming back for more. As has been the experience beforehand. Its kind of funny that the movies are some of the most successful in modern movie history, and to follow this up they completely change everything about the character and have sales in top ten at best. Assuming of course the title is even available to children thanks to eye biting loveliness.

[OtepApe]

I honestly believe that Uncle Ben will not become a permanent fixture in Spidey titles again. I just think he'll be around for the 3 issues or so, and that's it.

PAD is acting like a bit of an ass right now, about this, The Other etc. This certainly wasn't what I had envisioned was going to happen when I found out he was replacing Waid. A lot of people were thinking of him as something of a saviour in the very dark cloud Spidey had become, myself included.

I think he writes a good Spidey, a good MJ. But I think that of JMS. The thing with JMS, and PAD's run so far on FNSM is the story itself. It lacks anything. To me, bringing back Uncle Ben (even fore 3 issues) is just a cheap way of generating emotion into a story. Call it a trick, stunt, whatever, but I don't like this kind of writing personally. I am sure there are people who are out there who like it, but I don't.

I really thought FNSM and to a lesser extent SSM were going to get Spidey back on a better track then it is now, I was wrong. This isn't the first time I have said this, and probably won't be the last...but I think very, very soon I won't be be buying any current Spider-man titles. I just can't justify paying the money for something I dislike as much as this right now.

Before, you would get Spider-man stories, bad Spider-man stories. But at the sore was Spidey, I could always enjoy the Spider-man/Peter character, even if the story wasn't to my taste. But now, I don't even enjoy the character anymore, all of this crap that has surrounded him as just infected him.

[shinlyle]

Yup....as of right now, I'm down to Sensational Spider-Man...and that's it, as far as 616 Spidey goes.

The bad thing is, PAD didn't even have to come onto the scene and shake things up to get us onboard....all he had to do was write a cool Spidey and not screw anything up, and he would have been the best author on a Spidey ongoing in awhile.

Then he bought into the hype and followed JMS...and now his ego in is charge of the title. Dammit.

[OtepApe]

Yeah, I am down to SSM and I really don't think I will be buying that much longer. I may put the money to trying out titles I don't usually buy, it's gotta be better then putting it into a Spidey title right now.

Everyone blames JMS for everything these days, for what is happening to Spidey, Global Warming, Bird Flu. So I am going to continue. I blame JMS in turning PAD into an ass. PAD is obviously taken with JMS and follows his teachings, in how he writes, what he writes and how he treats the fans of Spidey. Well c'mon, I have to find a way for this to come back to JMS.