Kingdom Come written by Mark Waid and painted by Alex Ross.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by The Batman

For one thing, those titans who took on the role were created before the late 70's, which is pretty much the cutoff date for the timeline most of ross' stories take place in. Second, You say the titans take the role of the mentors, but their roles in the story are still minor. Donna doesnt have as big a role in the story as Diana, King Marvel isnt as important to the story as Captain Marvel is, etc. Alot of these mantle replacements were just minor details, really. Again, Ross wanted to have hal in the book, but DC wanted Kyle....so they decided to put in Alan instead. And in KC, its intended for flash to be a combination of all the flashes using the power from the speed force. Ross wasnt involved in the kingdom, so how can we know he wanted wally as flash from the get go? And why have Dick revert to the robin persona at all? Was it really necessary? No, it wasnt. Simply put, Ross wanted all the characters as iconic and classic as possible, having certain characters take the roles of their mentors because they were almost as old as their mentors in real time. If you think I'm wrong, why are there no major mentions of Jason Todd? Tim Drake? Impulse? Superboy? Kyle Rayner? Huntress? Steel's pretty much the only modern hero that wasnt created for the story that i can think of that appeared in KC

Ross basically hates everyhero and probably everything past 1970s comics. Every big thing he works on is a rehash to the "Classic" silver-age, and I do mean everything.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Eros

Ross basically hates everyhero and probably everything past 1970s comics. Every big thing he works on is a rehash to the "Classic" silver-age, and I do mean everything.

thats basically what i'm trying to say. Even in this story he's about silver age, but the only reason most people dont know it is cause this story takes place in the future. It's not a coincidence that 90% of the post-1975 DC characters dont pop up in this story.

[Anubis]

So?

[Eros]

Originally Posted by Anubis

So?

So nothing, Ross justs needs to learn that things change.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Anubis

So?

me, i dont have a problem with it. In fact, i love the fact that the story is essentially a potential future of the bronze age of DC. But for some reason, people are treating me like I'm crazy.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by Eros

So nothing, Ross justs needs to learn that things change.

Apparently he doesn't, seeing as he continues to produce epic work that many people buy and enjoy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it and all that jazz.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Apparently he doesn't, seeing as he continues to produce epic work that many people buy and enjoy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it and all that jazz.

I would like to see him work with more modern characters thats all. I was born in 1987, not 1967 and all.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by The Batman

me, i dont have a problem with it. In fact, i love the fact that the story is essentially a potential future of the bronze age of DC. But for some reason, people are treating me like I'm crazy.

Oh yeah, it's probally right. Maybe he is stuck in the 70's. I bet he still wears bell bottom shoes and does the hustle at partys too. My uncle Larry's been stuck in 1975 for 32 years.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Oh yeah, it's probally right. Maybe he is stuck in the 70's. I bet he still wears bell bottom shoes and does the hustle at partys too. My uncle Larry's been stuck in 1975 for 32 years.

nothin wrong with that. Ross' stories are probably simpler because of he's stuck in the 70'. They're more accessible as well because of it

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by Eros

I would like to see him work with more modern characters that's all. I was born in 1987, not 1967 and all.

Well, look at it this way. Some great artist will come along within the next couple of decades that fits within your decade of influence, and will draw comics with characters like the big ugly Parasite, or Gun toting Super heroes with tons of useless pockets, Kyle Rayner GL, etc, etc. And many will buy it, because it's beautiful, and they can identify with it. And there will be a small vocal minority that calls it crap, and wants to see comics drawn from their decade of influence, and the cycle will go on and on and on until comics die.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by The Batman

nothin wrong with that. Ross' stories are probably simpler because of he's stuck in the 70'. They're more accessible as well because of it

If you remeber the 70s that is.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Eros

If you remeber the 70s that is.

Not really. There's a poster here named GNR who loves justice, and thats pure Satellite Era JLA. He's barely read any DC comics, from what i can tell.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by The Batman

Not really. There's a poster here named GNR who loves justice, and thats pure Satellite Era JLA. He's barely read any DC comics, from what i can tell.

I like justice to, but I just want to see what Ross can do with newer characters. Dick Grayson is not Robin anymore, Tim Drake exists, and all that stuff.

[Anubis]

A good story is a good story, no matter what characters are in it. Most people don't give a damn whether it's Rayner, Hal, or even Guy Gardner, as long as the guy's got a ring, it's Green Lantern. It's really just that simple.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by Eros

I like justice to, but I just want to see what Ross can do with newer characters. Dick Grayson is not Robin anymore, Tim Drake exists, and all that stuff.

I'm sorry, but...you wont see it, in all likelyhood. Thats just the way it is, really. He probably sees the past 20 years of comics as tastless and way too bloody and violent. his childhood heroes have been ****ed with in some way or another. thats why he chooses to do non continuity stuff like justice.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by The Batman

I'm sorry, but...you wont see it, in all likelyhood. Thats just the way it is, really. He probably sees the past 20 years of comics as tastless and way too bloody and violent. his childhood heroes have been ****ed with in some way or another. thats why he chooses to do non continuity stuff like justice.

Odd, Batmans had his best stories in the past 20 years. Black superheros for the most part are no longer sterotypes, not all the time anyway. Tim Drake is probbaly the best Robin ever, and Nightwing has come out onto his on. Superman cannot moves planet, and travel through time anymore. Batman does not sleep in the same bed as Robin. The stories are not as silly as the silver-age were, and while their have been alot of bad, the good is far greater IMO. I can drink from a white water fountain, and all that jive.

[hippy fascist]

Originally Posted by Eros

I like justice to, but I just want to see what Ross can do with newer characters. Dick Grayson is not Robin anymore, Tim Drake exists, and all that stuff.

It's a ****ing elseworlds book...the whole point of that is to show hypothetical futres/pasts/parallel universes. To put it in marvel terms..."what if...Mark Waid stopped listening to whiney fanboys and just started writing something he enjoyed..."

[Anubis]

Heh ^thats it in a nut shell.

[Tropico]

Originally Posted by The Batman

For one thing, those titans who took on the role were created before the late 70's, which is pretty much the cutoff date for the timeline most of ross' stories take place in. Second, You say the titans take the role of the mentors, but their roles in the story are still minor. Donna doesnt have as big a role in the story as Diana, King Marvel isnt as important to the story as Captain Marvel is, etc. Alot of these mantle replacements were just minor details, really. Again, Ross wanted to have hal in the book, but DC wanted Kyle....so they decided to put in Alan instead. And in KC, its intended for flash to be a combination of all the flashes using the power from the speed force. Ross wasnt involved in the kingdom, so how can we know he wanted wally as flash from the get go? And why have Dick revert to the robin persona at all? Was it really necessary? No, it wasnt. Simply put, Ross wanted all the characters as iconic and classic as possible, having certain characters take the roles of their mentors because they were almost as old as their mentors in real time. If you think I'm wrong, why are there no major mentions of Jason Todd? Tim Drake? Impulse? Superboy? Kyle Rayner? Huntress? Steel's pretty much the only modern hero that wasnt created for the story that i can think of that appeared in KC

The thing about Elseworlds is that they're supposed to revolve around Batman and Superman. This is something I didn't know until about a year ago and if you pay attention you'll see it's true. That's why your mention of the grown up Titans not having a major role in it is inconsequential to me. It's why it isn't odd to me that Supes is often called the protagonist of the series by people who criticize it.

Regarding your Flash comment, are we agreed that Waid co-wrote Kingdom come? If so..."After melding with the Speed Force, the Flash's molecules have become unstable and as a result, he is constantly in motion. Waid later confirmed this Flash to be Wally West in The Kingdom." Kid Flash was also mentioned as being Wally's daughter in the KC novelization.

Anyway, I could continue mentioning the post 70's heroes that appeared in the comic and were part of the big teams (I'll just mention Ted Kord and Cyborg). I could tell you that most of the young heroes' comics you mentioned were barely in their infancy when KC was PUBLISHED, let alone when it was being conceived. But there's no point in it since you've already made your mind about it. BTW, just to be an *********, you shouldn't include Huntress as a "modern" hero since she has existed for decades now as her "Earth 2" version.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by hippy fascist

It's a ****ing elseworlds book...the whole point of that is to show hypothetical futres/pasts/parallel universes. To put it in marvel terms..."what if...Mark Waid stopped listening to whiney fanboys and just started writing something he enjoyed..."

You do realize I was not talking about Kingdom come nor Justice you idiot? I was talking about him working with modern characters...you idiot.

[hippy fascist]

Originally Posted by Eros

You do realize I was not talking about Kingdom come nor Justice you idiot? I was talking about him working with modern characters...you idiot.

Yes but the point was not about kingdom, it was about why he does books like the kingdom

[The Leaguer]

The only sense in which "epic" applies to Ross is in the raw scope of the stories he works on. "Epic" as a compliment certainly hasn't applied to him since Kingdom Come.

[incubat]

Originally Posted by The Batman

I'm sorry, but...you wont see it, in all likelyhood. Thats just the way it is, really. He probably sees the past 20 years of comics as tastless and way too bloody and violent. his childhood heroes have been ****ed with in some way or another. thats why he chooses to do non continuity stuff like justice.

I think non conitnuity stuff is important because it allows readers to know what could've been, if things had been different, something a lot of people often want to know. And if we have guys like Ross doing non continuity stuff, then I think we're in good hands.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by incubat

I think non conitnuity stuff is important because it allows readers to know what could've been, if things had been different, something a lot of people often want to know. And if we have guys like Ross doing non continuity stuff, then I think we're in good hands.

I wouldnt say that about ross. His thing is allowing readers to see what was, in a modern light. sort of like how the all star line should've been.

[incubat]

^in other words: non continuity stuff, even if it's about how someone wants it to be, it's still non continuity