The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > X-Men > X-Men 1, 2 & 3

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2006, 04:35 PM   #926
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
Yes, we did talk about it before, that's true. But for her to be doing 'good' deeds and then turn 'bad' in the space of one movie might be pushing it a little. We'd need to see some good action sequences of 'good Jean' saving the day and somehthey kow turning 'bad.' I can't quite see it working within the timeframe of a 90 minute movie.
That's because you're still thinking inside the box. You need to learn the difference between being Dark Phoenix, and being "bad". The two are not necessarily the same. Do you want to see Dark Phoenix? Or do you want to see Jean turn evil and do bad things? Are you absolutely adamant about seeing Jean turn evil? Or is seeing the dark side of the phoenix sufficient? Because I can give you a clear scenario in the span of a not 90 minute film but something a bit more proper, like a 120-140 minute film (like Batman Begins) where I can indeed show you a good jean turning dark, and then being brought back to the path of light, without having to become a villain or monster in the process. Unless you want her to become a villain that is. In that case, I suppose The Last Stand will do.


Quote:
And it might seem like a repeat of parts of X2 where Jean saves the day but something is happening to her,
Oh not at all. You're assuming that whatever is going to happen to her will be unexplainable and mysterious. I can instead give you a scenario where what's happening to her is plainly obvious to everyone around and the ultimate question is about whether Jean can control, not so much her powers, but herself and what she is.
Quote:
I can, therefore, understand why X3 took the route it did, by using her apparent death at the end of X2 (the shutdown of her conscious mind into comatose state) as the point at which darkness could fight for full control.
I can debate that because to me it was a cheap last-minute attempt to come up with some reason why Jean would suddenly turn "bad" for the sake of giving X3 another villain to pursue, totally ignoring all of Jean's strengths not only as a member of the X-men but also as a character and the heroic heart that she possesses.

Quote:
I must add that I can understand this even though I would have preferred somehow to see more of good Phoenix and some of the darned firebird! Do you see what I mean here?
A bit, yes. But I can forego the firebird except in times when she really must utilize her power at a relatively high settings. Not every manifestation of her powers needs to be godly and dramatic. But to ignore the fire effects after having seen them plainly in X2 is just sloppy. And yes, showing her be good for more than 30 seconds and then suddenly turn evil for no reason would be nice as well. Especially considering she was being comforted by someone who would know best how to bring out the good side in her.

Quote:
I almost wonder sometimes if they hadn't originally intended Jean to be Stryker's captive in X2 and to be the one who was manipulated (and corrupted, as she was more fragile)...
I doubt it? Since Stryker had no idea what she was capable of. his plan was to corrupt Xavier and toss him into an evil cerebro. No one else could do what Xavier did to Stryker's knowledge.

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2006, 04:38 PM   #927
XCharlieX
Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,231
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Jean simply coming back as a super-powered goodie adds no conflict to the story...there is no socio-political, wider issue attached
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
I disagree and we already discussed this. Jean coming back as basically good but with Phoenix level powers would provide plenty of interesting conflicts and complications to the storyline...I stronly suggest you read Minisinoo's novel "Grail".
This is why i am turned off by comics... theres much support for these graphic novels etc, and that means here theres a need for more support for the films way of doing things. They are constantly taken apart and deemed 'wrong" or "weak" in some way, but the folks who have other povs when asked what theyd do, would do somethign that blatantly sounds wreckless and even immature when were in the film verse So.. for some mutual understanding, can you blame a person for supporting the films in light of this? Can you really? This is a sincere question. Cmon now.


Last edited by XCharlieX; 08-20-2006 at 04:51 PM.
XCharlieX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2006, 07:48 PM   #928
XCharlieX
Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,231
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Ive heard that before, that "phoenix shouldve had her own film, and then the cure only for x4.... " the wisest way to go about fixing the ratio of time given to each is pacing and more character scenes, not splitting up a whole film into 2 halves. X1 and X2 did it, x3 did its homework as well.

XCharlieX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2006, 08:21 PM   #929
X-Maniac
High Evolutionary
 
X-Maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Genosha
Posts: 12,850
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
That's because you're still thinking inside the box. You need to learn the difference between being Dark Phoenix, and being "bad". The two are not necessarily the same. Do you want to see Dark Phoenix? Or do you want to see Jean turn evil and do bad things? Are you absolutely adamant about seeing Jean turn evil? Or is seeing the dark side of the phoenix sufficient? Because I can give you a clear scenario in the span of a not 90 minute film but something a bit more proper, like a 120-140 minute film (like Batman Begins) where I can indeed show you a good jean turning dark, and then being brought back to the path of light, without having to become a villain or monster in the process. Unless you want her to become a villain that is. In that case, I suppose The Last Stand will do.
Hmm... I see no difference between Dark Phoenix and being bad. They are the same. As they were in the comics. Jean turned evil - into Dark Phoenix - and did bad things. That's how it was. In the comics, she was saved from the Hellfire Club, but then flipped her lid in the jet, blew it apart, turned on her team-mates and took off into space, consuming a sun, and then returned to earth where she fought the X-Men again, defeated them, helped Xavier defeat her, and then killed herself. She was most definitely a villain, consumed by primal hungers and desires. In the movie, another personality was created by Xavier's meddling and that was a creature of rage and desire with an unstable power that manfested to extremes when under threat - much less evil than in the comics, more of a lost soul struggling with an unstable power.

There are many other ways the Phoenix saga could have been done in all three X-movies, and many other ways that other people might suggest it could have been done. It might be interesting to hear other scenarios but it's now impossible to rewrite, remake or unmake the movie version.

I found the vagueness of the Liberty Island radiation effect annoying for a start. Too vague. I'd be adding more into X1 and X2 to begin with, not so as to justify X3, but to make it a bit clearer that something was going on. One of Bryan's ideas was for the Phoenix to be an entity that entered Jean's mind when she used Cerebro, so God knows what he would have decided to do in X3. He does vague very well, so he probably doesn't know either! He would have made it as vague as it was in X1 and X2, where certain things just sort of hang there with no explanation. (Storm's dialogue in X2 being a further example).

__________________
Noah 3/10, Godzilla 6/10, Captain America: The Winter Soldier 7/10, X-Men: Days of Future Past 9/10
X-Maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2006, 08:25 PM   #930
The Original Bamfer
Sassneto
 
The Original Bamfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Killing wrongdoers with passive aggressiveness.
Posts: 41,306
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
Hmm... I see no difference between Dark Phoenix and being bad. They are the same. As they were in the comics. Jean turned evil - into Dark Phoenix - and did bad things. That's how it was. In the comics, she was saved from the Hellfire Club, but then flipped her lid in the jet, blew it apart, turned on her team-mates and took off into space, consuming a sun, and then returned to earth where she fought the X-Men again, defeated them, helped Xavier defeat her, and then killed herself. She was most definitely a villain, consumed by primal hungers and desires. In the movie, another personality was created by Xavier's meddling and that was a creature of rage and desire with an unstable power that manfested to extremes when under threat - much less evil than in the comics, more of a lost soul struggling with an unstable power.

There are many other ways the Phoenix saga could have been done in all three X-movies, and many other ways that other people might suggest it could have been done. It might be interesting to hear other scenarios but it's now impossible to rewrite, remake or unmake the movie version.

I found the vagueness of the Liberty Island radiation effect annoying for a start. Too vague. I'd be adding more into X1 and X2 to begin with, not so as to justify X3, but to make it a bit clearer that something was going on. One of Bryan's ideas was for the Phoenix to be an entity that entered Jean's mind when she used Cerebro, so God knows what he would have decided to do in X3. He does vague very well, so he probably doesn't know either! He would have made it as vague as it was in X1 and X2, where certain things just sort of hang there with no explanation. (Storm's dialogue in X2 being a further example).


Now, I had never heard that theory about an entity entering her mind from using Cerebro... and I'm not sure I like it. Wasn't he also to introduce Emma to corrupt Jean much like Mastermind did in the comics, but rather than being an Illusionist (like Mastermind) or a Telepath, Emma was going to be an Empath, and screw around with Jean's feelings? Interesting stuff.

The Original Bamfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2006, 08:31 PM   #931
danoyse
Snikt. Stab. Repeat.
SHH! Administrator
 
danoyse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: A world I long to see.
Posts: 22,638
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
I found the vagueness of the Liberty Island radiation effect annoying for a start. Too vague. I'd be adding more into X1 and X2 to begin with, not so as to justify X3, but to make it a bit clearer that something was going on. One of Bryan's ideas was for the Phoenix to be an entity that entered Jean's mind when she used Cerebro, so God knows what he would have decided to do in X3. He does vague very well, so he probably doesn't know either! He would have made it as vague as it was in X1 and X2, where certain things just sort of hang there with no explanation. (Storm's dialogue in X2 being a further example).
And you don't know it was that fleeting look at the end of the Liberty Island scene that started it until you heard Singer say it on the commentary track. Before that, I thought something had started when she tried to use cerebro earlier in the movie.

Whatever he was planning for X3 would have caused just as much controversy anyway, because it would have had to take such a turn from the comics. I've said before that I wasn't that familiar with the comics when I first saw the movies, but I caught an episode of Dark Phoenix saga from the animated series after seeing X2 and remember thinking there was just no way that would ever fit into Singer's version of X-Men.

Things were explained away really quickly about Jean's transformation in X3, because they were so vaguely set up in the first two movies. People assume what was happening to her based on what they know happened from the comics, but it was so open for anyone to come in and make their own spin on it from what was already established from the movies alone.

__________________
"You change the world when you change your mind.
danoyse is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2006, 08:34 PM   #932
XCharlieX
Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,231
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

I also noticed there were 2 reasons that trigered phoenix... the first one i noticed was the cerebro mind zap in x1, causing her to use her repressed powers more than she wanted to, but then i remembered that "ever since liberty island" stuff in x2... wasnt my first guess. I didnt notice anything strange with her at the finale of x1 really.

XCharlieX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2006, 11:21 PM   #933
BMM
Side-Kick
 
BMM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,374
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

I never found the Phoenix setup to be annoyingly or overly vague seeing as how the Phoenix setup is vague . . . perhaps even moreso than what is established in the previous two films. Here it is. There is no galaxy wandering force. It is simply Jean Grey, as it was always intended to be. What the hell happens to her? There is no explanation given save to say that she is clearly becoming something entirely different. In fact the reasoning behind her change in the first films looks to be more in line with the original telling of the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga. It seems the later comic books and animated series maintain an outdated version that looks to be currently/recently retconned in the way the Phoenix Saga/Dark Phoenix Saga was always and originally meant to be told.

I can't particularly fault the setup of the first films (seeing as how it was never finished) as well as because they seem to be in keeping with the original (and perhaps current) telling of the Phoenix, which maintains incredibly vague depictions regarding its setup as it always has.



Jean to Phoenix . . . did we miss something?



Then to the hospital . . .



. . . Haha, and then to hosting a tea party, after which, she is simply Phoenix, and we know the rest from here until her death on the moon.



I think The Last Stand's explanation would have worked perfectly well if Xavier had simply blocked Jean's power rather than depict her as an entirely different person from the get go. That way, she would have been corrupted by her power, not knowing how to cope with it, without resorting to split personality tactics that portray her as an unruly brat whose "dark" side needs to be repressed for whatever reason (who knows?). I think it would have kept the characterization and themes better intact while making the overall storytelling better.

BMM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 05:18 AM   #934
X-Maniac
High Evolutionary
 
X-Maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Genosha
Posts: 12,850
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

I was just looking at some old threads on here regarding the Phoenix and came across this one:

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...d.php?t=230476

In it, the theory of Xavier holding back Jean with mental blocks is mentioned and largely welcomed, even by LastSunrise. So why was the movie such a shock to people?

__________________
Noah 3/10, Godzilla 6/10, Captain America: The Winter Soldier 7/10, X-Men: Days of Future Past 9/10
X-Maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 08:06 AM   #935
gambitfire
Banned User
 
gambitfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 6,494
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

read the name of the thread and that will give you atlest one reason why.

gambitfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 09:33 AM   #936
PhoenixRisen
Side-Kick
 
PhoenixRisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blue Area of the Moon
Posts: 2,131
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gambitfire
read the name of the thread and that will give you atlest one reason why.
I was wondering what all this had to do with "Why the Hate for Wolverine?" and I still can't figure it out. People hate Wolverine cuz of Jean's mental blocks/how she became Phoenix? Does it go back to her somehow amplifying Wolverine's powers or whatever? I felt off-topic enough disproving ntcrawler's "definitive" statements about Jean's powers a couple pages back. All the Jean/mental blocks/Phoenix stuff has already been covered in other threads?? Oh well I guess there's not much new to talk about. But thanks for posting the pics with Misty Knight, BMM, she is one of my faves!!! (I love how she called Jean her "kozmic roomie" lol...I also love how the last panel illustrates a "dark side" of Jean, which supports her characterization in X3 and is a great example of Clarement's gift of foreshadowing, which Singer nailed with his Phoenix "hints" in X1 and X2!!)!!

__________________
Now Playing in South Park X-Men Thread: "The Fate of the Phoenix! Part 3" Coming Next: "Rise of the Sentinels!"

Last edited by PhoenixRisen; 08-21-2006 at 10:33 AM.
PhoenixRisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 12:49 PM   #937
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
I was just looking at some old threads on here regarding the Phoenix and came across this one:

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...d.php?t=230476

In it, the theory of Xavier holding back Jean with mental blocks is mentioned and largely welcomed, even by LastSunrise. So why was the movie such a shock to people?
Because the reasons given were completely unexpected, thrown in your face, the whole concept made overly complicated without even so much as a clue given. For a good mystery or thriller story, you should be able to look back on it and realize where the clues are, and realize that the little details you may have missed did indeed lead to this conclusion. I can find nothing like this regarding X3. Instead, instead of going "oh yeah, I should have seen it happening, just didn't realize it at the time" I instead was forced to go "WTF? Why did she do that? how could she?". The reasoning given behind Jean turning bad, the nature of her powers, the reasons why her powers go so out of control and for the sudden, tragic shift in personality is thrown completely in your face, without warning. And thas is why people like me are shocked. And writers that I've spoken to generally agree that this type of sudden, in-your-face revelations do not make for good storytelling.

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 01:21 PM   #938
X-Maniac
High Evolutionary
 
X-Maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Genosha
Posts: 12,850
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
Because the reasons given were completely unexpected, thrown in your face, the whole concept made overly complicated without even so much as a clue given. For a good mystery or thriller story, you should be able to look back on it and realize where the clues are, and realize that the little details you may have missed did indeed lead to this conclusion. I can find nothing like this regarding X3. Instead, instead of going "oh yeah, I should have seen it happening, just didn't realize it at the time" I instead was forced to go "WTF? Why did she do that? how could she?". The reasoning given behind Jean turning bad, the nature of her powers, the reasons why her powers go so out of control and for the sudden, tragic shift in personality is thrown completely in your face, without warning. And thas is why people like me are shocked. And writers that I've spoken to generally agree that this type of sudden, in-your-face revelations do not make for good storytelling.
But there were very few clues to anything at all in X1 and X2. That's the problem... though it also gives some room for interpretation.

We got Jean saying her power was expanding all the time, that Xavier was teaching her to develop her telepathy, that using Cerebro was dangerous for 'someone like her.' Then we got an odd facial expression at the end of X1 (which I should think almost everyone didn't notice.. I certainly didn't get what it intended to portray when i saw the movie). In X2, we had Cyclops' comment about Jean not being the same since Liberty Island, then nothing else until we got a voiceover from Jean at end repeating Xavier's monologue.

At no point were mental blocks or suppressed powers ruled out as possibilties. Our resident Phoenix expert, AlmightyPejo, who has studied every aspect of Jean Grey in the movies and the comics and everywhere else, was among those welcoming the idea of Xavier's mental blocks in the thread I quoted above. He obviously didn't see any contradiction to the vagueness of X1 and X2.

Maybe this wasn't the X3 you wanted, the Jean Grey you wanted or expected. But does that make it wrong if it simply isn't your personal version of events?

__________________
Noah 3/10, Godzilla 6/10, Captain America: The Winter Soldier 7/10, X-Men: Days of Future Past 9/10
X-Maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 01:44 PM   #939
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
But there were very few clues to anything at all in X1 and X2. That's the problem... though it also gives some room for interpretation.
Room for interpretation, yes. But to turn her into a cold monster who immediately starts to lash out against everyone in my opinion is an unfair stretch of the interpretation. In storytelling, just like in real life, the simplest explanations are usually the best explanations. Such as Jean's powers being an inherent part of herself, and not due to cosmic entities or glowing crystals or complicated mental blocks which would have nothing to do with a machine that effects genes in the first place. There's only so much you can be willing to believe, some chasms are too large to leap across and I consider this to be one of them. The comics are known for blowing things out of proportion and making things so complicated and contradictory that few beings are worthy of understanding them. THe Movieverse was the latest, best attempt at keeping things simple, and on a manageable and understandable scale. And up until X3 that concept seemed to work. Then we get into the idea of mental blocks and alternate personas that call themselves "phoenix" for no reason and who want to blow everything up, and... you get the idea.

Quote:
We got Jean saying her power was expanding all the time, that Xavier was teaching her to develop her telepathy, that using Cerebro was dangerous for 'someone like her.' Then we got an odd facial expression at the end of X1 (which I should think almost everyone didn't notice.. I certainly didn't get what it intended to portray when i saw the movie). In X2, we had Cyclops' comment about Jean not being the same since Liberty Island, then nothing else until we got a voiceover from Jean at end repeating Xavier's monologue.
Agreed. So Jean's powers were not as strong as X3 would like us to believe and that Xavier was teaching her to make her abilities stronger and to better harness them. And an odd facial expression after Magneto's machine reached them but that was also similar to Senator Kelly's reaction. Guess what? That's the makings of a good mystery thriller. You don't reveal who the killer is or how the murder was committed in the story, you leave clues. Clues that you can later look back upon and realize "oh yeah! I didn't notice that at first, but it makes sense now!". Instead, the conclusion we are presented with in X3 makes us go "WTF? how did THAT happen?". Concepts which most writers I spoke to agree does not make for good storytelling.
And speaking of those hints. There were no hints that what was happening to Jean was something dangerous to others, that she was somehow slipping into some sort of insanity or any hint that the way she used her powers was in any way other than benelovent. She was troubled by what was happening and afraid, but she certainly did a fine job of coping with it and controlling it. No hints of the monster or evil being that was to come. No hints of repressed personalities being set free, no hints at any sort of resentment towards Xavier or anger at being held back, caged, or otherwise limited by any of the other characters. For all intents and purposes, Jean was good inside and out, maintained control of herself and her powers (except when having nightmares), and left her mortal state a hero. No obvious reasons given that she should not have been able to return later in a similar state of mind. Dazed and confused and traumatized yes, but still good.
Quote:
At no point were mental blocks or suppressed powers ruled out as possibilties. Our resident Phoenix expert, AlmightyPejo, who has studied every aspect of Jean Grey in the movies and the comics and everywhere else, was among those welcoming the idea of Xavier's mental blocks in the thread I quoted above. He obviously didn't see any contradiction to the vagueness of X1 and X2.
There are also other Phoenix experts out there. It's not like you can just grant someone a bonafide degree in a fictional char or make him THE final authority. I found there are several other people who know just as much and who have studied the characters just as much as the AlmightyPejo and I respect their arguments and reasoning as well.

Quote:
Maybe this wasn't the X3 you wanted, the Jean Grey you wanted or expected. But does that make it wrong if it simply isn't your personal version of events?
No, because I'm not the only one who feels this way. There are more people who feel along the same lines as I do than you seem to be willing to give credit for. I just happen to be the one you like to single out. It's not wrong if it's not my personal vision of things, but it becomes wrong when you violate plot points and concepts in a film that's supposed to be a continuation of the previous two films, especially if those elements include critical aspects of the character, such as their strengths, compassions, and courages which were all put on the back shelf in order to tell a simplistic story about a monster who needs to be brought down. There are other ways to tell this story which would have satisfied both the blockbuster general audience and hardcore fans that wouldn't involve great leaps of the imagination or great effort on the part of the production staff.

And from From what I've seen, most of the people who enjoy the outcome of X3 tend to be those who consider the characters to be disposable and who don't mind seeing an ending represented by a bunch of gravestones. One more death? Two more deaths? Eh what's the big deal? They're just chars. But they're more than just chars to people like me. More than just names on a computer screen. Thanks to good writing in this and other genres, these characters have been really brought to life, given hopes and ideals and fears and dreams and backgrounds that we can identify with and appreciate. Characters who aren't larger than life or superhuman due to their powers, but due to their courage and other inner strengths. When a writer has the guts to explore these characters and show off these strengths, you end up with an engaging, intense story. When you just kill them off and move them around as blocks of stone, you end up with a cheap and shallow story. And I know that others feel the same way, considering the legions of fans that each of these characters has. I know that these people don't consider chars like this to be as disposeable as an empty soda can, and therefore why they too consider the outcome shown in X3 to be not only unfair to the chars, but ultimately wrong.

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.

Last edited by ntcrawler; 08-21-2006 at 01:46 PM.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 02:00 PM   #940
CapBeerCino
Side-Kick
 
CapBeerCino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ...
Posts: 6,420
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
In it, the theory of Xavier holding back Jean with mental blocks is mentioned and largely welcomed, even by LastSunrise. So why was the movie such a shock to people?
Simple - It was badly writen. I can understand their decision to approach the Pheonix as Jean having multiple personalities because of the professor, but why did Xavier have to come up with the same disorder?

__________________
C2:Cyclops Fans - United
The movies aren't the comics period ≠ Excuse for bad writing.

CapBeerCino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 02:20 PM   #941
PhoenixRisen
Side-Kick
 
PhoenixRisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blue Area of the Moon
Posts: 2,131
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapBeerCino
Simple - It was badly writen. I can understand their decision to approach the Pheonix as Jean having multiple personalities because of the professor, but why did Xavier have to come up with the same disorder?
Did you happen to read the above panels where Jean had never seen the Professor so brusque and rude before? It's a couple posts up.

__________________
Now Playing in South Park X-Men Thread: "The Fate of the Phoenix! Part 3" Coming Next: "Rise of the Sentinels!"
PhoenixRisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 02:20 PM   #942
X-Maniac
High Evolutionary
 
X-Maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Genosha
Posts: 12,850
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
Room for interpretation, yes. But to turn her into a cold monster who immediately starts to lash out against everyone in my opinion is an unfair stretch of the interpretation. In storytelling, just like in real life, the simplest explanations are usually the best explanations. Such as Jean's powers being an inherent part of herself, and not due to cosmic entities or glowing crystals or complicated mental blocks which would have nothing to do with a machine that effects genes in the first place. There's only so much you can be willing to believe, some chasms are too large to leap across and I consider this to be one of them. The comics are known for blowing things out of proportion and making things so complicated and contradictory that few beings are worthy of understanding them. THe Movieverse was the latest, best attempt at keeping things simple, and on a manageable and understandable scale. And up until X3 that concept seemed to work. Then we get into the idea of mental blocks and alternate personas that call themselves "phoenix" for no reason and who want to blow everything up, and... you get the idea.
I agree the alternate personality calling itself Phoenix seemed a little odd in the movie (we do know though that a lot of Phoenix effects that may have justified the name were not included/created when it came to post-production). I'd have preferred it to have been a name given to her by Magneto, because she had risen from apparent death like a Phoenix... however...

If, then, we go down the road of Jean being genetically evolved by Magneto's machine... We have to establish why she was susceptible to its effects when they believed it had no effect on mutants and no one else was affected by it. We then have to explore that Magneto is, in effect, responsible for creating the Phoenix.

We then have to see situations where we have conflict. Where the Phoenix story makes good drama, interpersonal conflict. There HAS to be interpersonal conflict at the heart of the story (like Magneto vs Xavier in X1 and Xavier-Magneto vs Stryker in X2). Two opposing sides, one trying to stop the other.

Who would be the villain? Maybe Emma Frost and/or the Hellfire Club, wanting to acquire Jean for their own ends (as Magneto did in X3). Maybe the government - spurred into taking extreme measures when Jean's power does something terrible and devastatingly destructive and murderous....either intentionally or because she can't control her powers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
Agreed. So Jean's powers were not as strong as X3 would like us to believe and that Xavier was teaching her to make her abilities stronger and to better harness them. And an odd facial expression after Magneto's machine reached them but that was also similar to Senator Kelly's reaction. Guess what? That's the makings of a good mystery thriller. You don't reveal who the killer is or how the murder was committed in the story, you leave clues. Clues that you can later look back upon and realize "oh yeah! I didn't notice that at first, but it makes sense now!". Instead, the conclusion we are presented with in X3 makes us go "WTF? how did THAT happen?". Concepts which most writers I spoke to agree does not make for good storytelling.
And speaking of those hints. There were no hints that what was happening to Jean was something dangerous to others, that she was somehow slipping into some sort of insanity or any hint that the way she used her powers was in any way other than benelovent. She was troubled by what was happening and afraid, but she certainly did a fine job of coping with it and controlling it. No hints of the monster or evil being that was to come. No hints of repressed personalities being set free, no hints at any sort of resentment towards Xavier or anger at being held back, caged, or otherwise limited by any of the other characters. For all intents and purposes, Jean was good inside and out, maintained control of herself and her powers (except when having nightmares), and left her mortal state a hero. No obvious reasons given that she should not have been able to return later in a similar state of mind. Dazed and confused and traumatized yes, but still good.
Okay... but how would you have the darkness overwhelm her? That is, after all, part of the story - that absolute power corrupts absolutely. And that there is no solution, ultimately, but sacrifice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
There are also other Phoenix experts out there. It's not like you can just grant someone a bonafide degree in a fictional char or make him THE final authority. I found there are several other people who know just as much and who have studied the characters just as much as the AlmightyPejo and I respect their arguments and reasoning as well.
Of course.. I was merely pointing out that the person on this forum who knows most about Phoenix (though he no longer posts here) found no huge contradictions with the X3 events. And he would certainly have noticed them more than most...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
No, because I'm not the only one who feels this way. There are more people who feel along the same lines as I do than you seem to be willing to give credit for. I just happen to be the one you like to single out. It's not wrong if it's not my personal vision of things, but it becomes wrong when you violate plot points and concepts in a film that's supposed to be a continuation of the previous two films, especially if those elements include critical aspects of the character, such as their strengths, compassions, and courages which were all put on the back shelf in order to tell a simplistic story about a monster who needs to be brought down. There are other ways to tell this story which would have satisfied both the blockbuster general audience and hardcore fans that wouldn't involve great leaps of the imagination or great effort on the part of the production staff.
I don't 'single you out' - you make points, I respond, it's a debate. I still do not feel plot points were 'violated' as the vagueness in X1 and X2 allows a lot of room for manoeuvre. Jean was not really a monster in X3; she was a lost soul, a confused woman whose mind was flipping from morals/humanity to a childlike instinctive persona that acted purely on emotion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
And from From what I've seen, most of the people who enjoy the outcome of X3 tend to be those who consider the characters to be disposable and who don't mind seeing an ending represented by a bunch of gravestones. One more death? Two more deaths? Eh what's the big deal? They're just chars. But they're more than just chars to people like me. More than just names on a computer screen. Thanks to good writing in this and other genres, these characters have been really brought to life, given hopes and ideals and fears and dreams and backgrounds that we can identify with and appreciate. Characters who aren't larger than life or superhuman due to their powers, but due to their courage and other inner strengths. When a writer has the guts to explore these characters and show off these strengths, you end up with an engaging, intense story. When you just kill them off and move them around as blocks of stone, you end up with a cheap and shallow story. And I know that others feel the same way, considering the legions of fans that each of these characters has. I know that these people don't consider chars like this to be as disposeable as an empty soda can, and therefore why they too consider the outcome shown in X3 to be not only unfair to the chars, but ultimately wrong.
But there is nothing inherently wrong with shocking drama or with deaths. Jean's sacrifice in particular is logical, is part of the classic saga and gave resolution/redemption to her character that she found peace/humanity/control at the end. Xavier has also died in the comics and existed as a transferred consciouness for whom a new body was cloned. It didn't feel 'wrong' to me, it was just daring and shocking. Movies tend to have more finality, given their limited scope compared with years and years of comics.

How would you preferred the endings to have been for those who suffered death (Xavier, Jean, Cyclops...and also Arclight, Quill, Psylocke) or cure (Magneto, Rogue, Mystique)?

__________________
Noah 3/10, Godzilla 6/10, Captain America: The Winter Soldier 7/10, X-Men: Days of Future Past 9/10
X-Maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 02:25 PM   #943
X-Maniac
High Evolutionary
 
X-Maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Genosha
Posts: 12,850
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapBeerCino
Simple - It was badly writen. I can understand their decision to approach the Pheonix as Jean having multiple personalities because of the professor, but why did Xavier have to come up with the same disorder?
It was shown in X2 that Xavier hides things, as Magneto pointed out to Wolverine at the campfire. 'He trusted that you'd find out for yourself, he gives you more credit than i do'. When we had no inclination earlier that Xavier knew of Wolverine's past and connections with Stryker. Thus, X2 took a big leap with the Wolverine backstory just as X3 did with Jean's backstory. Behind each leap was another facet to Xavier's character.

__________________
Noah 3/10, Godzilla 6/10, Captain America: The Winter Soldier 7/10, X-Men: Days of Future Past 9/10
X-Maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 02:27 PM   #944
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
Hmm... I see no difference between Dark Phoenix and being bad. They are the same. As they were in the comics. Jean turned evil - into Dark Phoenix - and did bad things.
Jean's powers are an inherent part of her, just like Storm's. Jean's powers are linked closely to her emotions, just like Storm's. When Jean becomes upset, things start shaking in the room, and when Jean becomes angry, things start flying across the room and being destroyed. Just like when Storm becomes angry, the weather becomes stormy also and bad things happen to the earth. Another plausible way to look at Dark Phoenix is the same way you would see a Jedi Knight using the dark side: Jean giving into her anger, her rage causes her to surrender control over herself and her powers to become dark and destructive, whereas a calm, peaceful Jean could just as surely use her powers to heal, to fix, or to protect others.

There's no need for Jean to become evil in order to become angry, and when that anger is pushed past its breaking point, such as a moment of desperation when someone close to her is about to die and the person responsible for it is literally laughing with glee in her face, that would be more than enough to cause Jean to lose herself to her rage, and unleash the full destructive potential of her powers on that person's ass. She would regret it later, having willingly harmed someone and ending up with blood on her hands, but that would only make the conflict alot more interesting as well as showing the methods that would be used to calm her down and help her regain her peace of mind and self control.

So you see, Dark Phoenix and being evil do not have to be necessarily the same thing. Like Jean, we are all capable of being dark and angry and giving into our rage but that doesn't make us evil. The main difference is we're not capable of causing the same level of destruction that Jean would be if she were angry. But the methods used for coping with it and rescuing a person from that anger would be quite similar and familiar to us all.

There is nothing in the movieverse to suggest that Jean's powers need to be inherently evil and there's no reason to be. Neither is the concept of her powers corrupting her to do bad things. It would be alot more interesting to show her giving into the temptation to want to use her powers more and more to do good things, and to have someone wise like Xavier help her learn that just because you have good intentions, doesn't mean your actions will be seen as good, and that wisdom comes from knowing when NOT to intervene as much as it does from knowing WHEN to intervene. And it would be even more interesting to have Jean encounter a threat or danger and have her realize that her awsome powers alone cannot save the day or fix the problem, that only through a combined effort of all the team members and by relying on her other skills and talents together they may have a chance...

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 02:37 PM   #945
PhoenixRisen
Side-Kick
 
PhoenixRisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blue Area of the Moon
Posts: 2,131
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
It was shown in X2 that Xavier hides things, as Magneto pointed out to Wolverine at the campfire. 'He trusted that you'd find out for yourself, he gives you more credit than i do'. When we had no inclination earlier that Xavier knew of Wolverine's past and connections with Stryker. Thus, X2 took a big leap with the Wolverine backstory just as X3 did with Jean's backstory. Behind each leap was another facet to Xavier's character.
Yes I agree, which is why I don't understand the objection or how either his attitude or putting blocks on Jean would be an indication of a "multiple personality disorder" on his part? But oh well. I guess we are never supposed to learn anything new about any of the characters or things they have done in the past.

__________________
Now Playing in South Park X-Men Thread: "The Fate of the Phoenix! Part 3" Coming Next: "Rise of the Sentinels!"
PhoenixRisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 06:08 PM   #946
gambitfire
Banned User
 
gambitfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 6,494
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRisen
I was wondering what all this had to do with "Why the Hate for Wolverine?" and I still can't figure it out. People hate Wolverine cuz of Jean's mental blocks/how she became Phoenix? Does it go back to her somehow amplifying Wolverine's powers or whatever? I felt off-topic enough disproving ntcrawler's "definitive" statements about Jean's powers a couple pages back. All the Jean/mental blocks/Phoenix stuff has already been covered in other threads?? Oh well I guess there's not much new to talk about. But thanks for posting the pics with Misty Knight, BMM, she is one of my faves!!! (I love how she called Jean her "kozmic roomie" lol...I also love how the last panel illustrates a "dark side" of Jean, which supports her characterization in X3 and is a great example of Clarement's gift of foreshadowing, which Singer nailed with his Phoenix "hints" in X1 and X2!!)!!
huh?

ok. im just saying too much Wolverine not enough of everyone else was one reason ppl may have disliked the movie .

gambitfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 06:17 PM   #947
gambitfire
Banned User
 
gambitfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 6,494
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

We are so off topic it's not even funny lol

gambitfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 06:25 PM   #948
danoyse
Snikt. Stab. Repeat.
SHH! Administrator
 
danoyse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: A world I long to see.
Posts: 22,638
Default Re: Why the hate for Wolverine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
It was shown in X2 that Xavier hides things, as Magneto pointed out to Wolverine at the campfire. 'He trusted that you'd find out for yourself, he gives you more credit than i do'. When we had no inclination earlier that Xavier knew of Wolverine's past and connections with Stryker. Thus, X2 took a big leap with the Wolverine backstory just as X3 did with Jean's backstory. Behind each leap was another facet to Xavier's character.
Even earlier then that--in the prison scene when Magneto was telling Xavier about his visits from Stryker, Magneto asked "And now you think that taking in the Wolverine will make up for your failure with Stryker's son? Xavier admitted he hadn't told Logan everything about his past--his excuse being that "his mind was too fragile." But Magneto said "Or are you just afraid of losing one of your precious X-Men, old friend?"

Knowing that, I thought finding out that Xavier was also keeping secrets about Jean in X3 seemed in tune with his character. Magneto taunted him about his tactics with Jean the same he'd taunted him about Wolverine.

Also the whole issue with Jason--he'd failed somehow with Jason, who was later used as a weapon against him. Xavier nearly killed all the mutants on the planet, and Magneto only intervened to try to make him kill all the humans instead. With Magneto on the run, and someone as powerful as Jean resurfaced, it would make sense he'd be frantically trying to restore those mental blocks, and not care if Logan was going to have a fit about it.

__________________
"You change the world when you change your mind.
danoyse is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.