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Old 07-24-2006, 03:30 PM   #101
Jplaya2023
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhammer
In my opinion, Pre-Crisis Superman and Superman Prime trump SSJ3.
Post-Crisis Superman is either a bit lower or a bit higher than SSJ3.
care to explain

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Old 07-24-2006, 06:01 PM   #102
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Jplaya2023
care to explain
I think he's talking about how Post-crisis Supes can hurl billions of tons, toss ships the size of moons,and stop planets in their orbits. While Pre-Crisis Superman could toss planets when he was a kid and could easily speed faster then the time barier. He could also blow out stars with a single breath and sneaze away solar systems and could shrug off blasts of anti-matter.


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Old 07-24-2006, 06:06 PM   #103
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Ultra-Herald9
The earth is actually quite fragile contrary to popular belief. right now we possess the tech to practically oblitarate this entire planet and a asteriod the size of a city could totally obliterate the earth's surface even with a water landing. Even the weakest gamma ray bursts can easily destroy entire planets and theoretically there are novas and black holes that take out entire Galaxies.

I don't understand where you came up with the Supes getting whipped by nukes thing since the Guy has been hit with nukes while literally sitting on kryptonite.
Actually, we do NOT possess the technology (unless you care to show me specs on machines capable of destabilizing more than 59,742,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg of super dense rock. Hint. That's extremely heavy and dense, and the energy required would be absolutely solar.) to destroy an entire planet. And an asteroid doesn't obliterate the Earth's surface. It vaporizes itself due to the atmosphere and actual impact with Earth, possibly a dozen dozen feet deep, maybe a couple times it's diameter around itself into dust which covers the Earth, which causes no sunlight, which devastates the plant life (alongside falling sediment and polluting waters), which devastates animal life, and it moves on from there, making Earth appear very barren. But Earth is still there. This is where people say, "What if we destabilize the core?" What do you mean destabilize? It's NOT stable. It's molten, it doesn't support anything, and constantly causes eruptions of pressure all the time. If something as simple as a nuclear bomb (read: ten nuclear bombs required to jettison magma from the core to the surface, at least), then the Earth would have destroyed itself.


Nova's (read Supernovae event horizons) destroy their solar systems just before dispersal. Unless you're considering a galaxy's core. Even then, it will not destroy an entire galaxy, though destroy it mostly. Since the core makes up pretty much almost half of the galaxy itself in mass. A single supernova working at one solar mass (read: our home star, "Sol") even if you were to triple it's energy, and make it expand three times as far, the energy it must overcome throughout the galaxy is more than one billion times itself, and the distance is so vast in the vaccuum, that it just would dissapate. And for the most part about galaxy cores, our galaxy doesn't sit right on top of it. If we did, our entire galaxy would've been pulled in by it's gravity, and destroyed all things in our galaxy. Blackholes ALSO do not destroy galaxies. Unless of course you're also talking about a galaxy core. But since it would have to pretty much explode first, it wouldn't destroy the galaxy either way.

Case in point. If the universe's celestial bodies were THAT fragile, with THAT much danger lying around them, the universe would never have been habitable for us in the first place. If you REALLY think that the structures prevading our universe are at THAT much of a whimsey, and you're that interested in knowing, I'd definitely recommend a slew of astophysics courses, backed by the chem, basic physics, advanced physics, and particle physics courses that would definitely elate a different story.

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Old 07-24-2006, 06:09 PM   #104
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Warhammer
In my opinion, Pre-Crisis Superman and Superman Prime trump SSJ3.
Post-Crisis Superman is either a bit lower or a bit higher than SSJ3.
Agreed. The sheer durability and physical power FAR outweight anything they've ever hoped to accomplish. THAT Superman could withstand planetary destruction like it was nothing. Or at least one of us getting winded.


And Superboy Prime was FAR more powerful than that.

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Old 07-24-2006, 06:14 PM   #105
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Mistress Gluon
Actually, we do NOT possess the technology (unless you care to show me specs on machines capable of destabilizing more than 59,742,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg of super dense rock. Hint. That's extremely heavy and dense, and the energy required would be absolutely solar.) to destroy an entire planet. And an asteroid doesn't obliterate the Earth's surface. It vaporizes itself due to the atmosphere and actual impact with Earth, possibly a dozen dozen feet deep, maybe a couple times it's diameter around itself into dust which covers the Earth, which causes no sunlight, which devastates the plant life (alongside falling sediment and polluting waters), which devastates animal life, and it moves on from there, making Earth appear very barren. But Earth is still there. This is where people say, "What if we destabilize the core?" What do you mean destabilize? It's NOT stable. It's molten, it doesn't support anything, and constantly causes eruptions of pressure all the time. If something as simple as a nuclear bomb (read: ten nuclear bombs required to jettison magma from the core to the surface, at least), then the Earth would have destroyed itself.


Nova's (read Supernovae event horizons) destroy their solar systems just before dispersal. Unless you're considering a galaxy's core. Even then, it will not destroy an entire galaxy, though destroy it mostly. Since the core makes up pretty much almost half of the galaxy itself in mass. A single supernova working at one solar mass (read: our home star, "Sol") even if you were to triple it's energy, and make it expand three times as far, the energy it must overcome throughout the galaxy is more than one billion times itself, and the distance is so vast in the vaccuum, that it just would dissapate. And for the most part about galaxy cores, our galaxy doesn't sit right on top of it. If we did, our entire galaxy would've been pulled in by it's gravity, and destroyed all things in our galaxy. Blackholes ALSO do not destroy galaxies. Unless of course you're also talking about a galaxy core. But since it would have to pretty much explode first, it wouldn't destroy the galaxy either way.

Case in point. If the universe's celestial bodies were THAT fragile, with THAT much danger lying around them, the universe would never have been habitable for us in the first place. If you REALLY think that the structures prevading our universe are at THAT much of a whimsey, and you're that interested in knowing, I'd definitely recommend a slew of astophysics courses, backed by the chem, basic physics, advanced physics, and particle physics courses that would definitely elate a different story.

Dang...... I just got schooled. Wow that was quite the hunk of knowledge and I can always admit when i'm totally outclassed. You should seriously give yourself a round of aplause.

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Old 07-24-2006, 06:18 PM   #106
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Ultra-Herald9
Dang...... I just got schooled. Wow that was quite the hunk of knowledge and I can always admit when i'm totally outclassed. You should seriously give yourself a round of aplause.

Nah. Science just happens to be my forte. (I should actually be starting my masters in physics here next Spring.) I hope I haven't derailed you off the path of science though. x.x

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Old 07-24-2006, 06:52 PM   #107
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Mistress Gluon
Nah. Science just happens to be my forte. (I should actually be starting my masters in physics here next Spring.) I hope I haven't derailed you off the path of science though. x.x
Don't worry cause science will always be interesting to me but I think i'll mostly just stick to comics. Its always cool to know that there are incredibly smart people in the world and I think what your doing is really respectable.

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Old 07-24-2006, 08:26 PM   #108
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

supes would get hiss ass WHOOPED!

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Old 07-24-2006, 10:13 PM   #109
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Yay for random outburst!

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Old 07-24-2006, 11:10 PM   #110
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by xwolverine2
supes would get hiss ass WHOOPED!
Are you trying to sound dumb?

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Old 07-25-2006, 09:39 AM   #111
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

looks like Goku would win this one

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Old 07-25-2006, 12:01 PM   #112
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Cool Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jplaya2023
care to explain
Ultra-Herald and Mistress already explained for me.
If you think its true, please care to explain how SSJ3 is stronger than Superman Prime and Pe-Crisis Superman?
I'm just wondering.

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Old 07-25-2006, 01:58 PM   #113
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Warhammer
Ultra-Herald and Mistress already explained for me.
If you think its true, please care to explain how SSJ3 is stronger than Superman Prime and Pe-Crisis Superman?
I'm just wondering.
Superman Prime is folklore with a few pictures and what not. He hasnt actually fought anyone yet so we dont know the extent of his abilities. Pre Crisis superman may be stronger as far as raw strength to an untrained SSJ, but a SSJ is infinately faster and stronger in the sense of battle speed, better fighting skills, tactics, and more endurance from a damage standpoint depending on the type of enemy faced.

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Old 07-25-2006, 02:16 PM   #114
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

In DBZ the characters powerlevel increase chronogically up untill the end of the Frieza saga. That was also supposed to be the end of DBZ with Goku ending up dead. After that their powers aren't demenstrated quite well. There are so many I don't even know where to start, but I mention a few ones. Some ppl keep refering to the time where Goku was training in the other world and he had trouble lifting those 40 tons in his normal state and hence basing his strength at that. But Frieza lifted a mounten which Goku even managed to stop with his strengh (not ki) in his normal form. And surely he was MANY times stronger that in the other world. Another thing on that scene (when Goku was fighting Frieza) was why Goku didn't just fly through that mounten when surely rocks cant hurt him, yet he looked afraid. He does fly through it right after stopping it though.
And another thing is their speeds. People refer to Gotenks flying over the world few (8?) times in 30 min (correct me if it's not 30 min), which makes his speed a little over 600.000 km/hr or about 180 km/sec. But Goku flew 1000.000 km (the snakeway) in about a day, which makes his full speed at THAT time a around 400.000 km/hr or 115 km/sec, so Gotenks speed must be much higher.
Another thing about speed:
Well we now from Bulma that the distance from earth to Namek is 4339,25 ly, which mean it'll take that many years by traveling with the speed of light to namek. Goku's spaceship got there in about 6 days, which makes that ships speed about 4339,25ly/6days = 260.000 times the speed of light. Now Kaio could follow that ship by communicating with Goku and ect. which means his senses or whatever you would call it, and could keep up with that speed. But when Goku went SSJ when fighting Frieza they moved so fast that even Kaio-sama couldn't keep up with them, he states him self that this has never happend before, because those 2 are moving SO fast! But he could keep up with the spaceship, so by simple logic SSJ Goku's and Frieza's speed most be beyond 260.000c!!!
The inconsistensies begin after the Frieza saga, like their powers not having that huge amount of "side-effect" to the surroundings like in the Frieza saga. Examples: A simple energy blast from Frieza was like a nuke, when he transformed his energy disturbed the atmospher, and there are many more in that saga (the best saga IMO). Surely the fights after that should have been more impressive. Because they (at least some of them) ARE stronger and faster after that saga (in the Cell and Buu saga).

One might even say that the sagas after the Frieza saga is a bit like GT only Akira creating it. He probably didn't spend as much time on those sagas as for the sagas uptill and incl the Frieza's.
DBZ charachters are obviously alot stronger then they look like... I'll just ignore things like Goku having trouble lifting 40 tons or SSJ4 Goku having trouble lifting half a city.

Btw things like the time they take to powerup or transform into a SSJ or Super Buu taking alot of time to find Goku and Vegeta, is probably just to make show more exciting. If Buu just found them in a slitsecond before Goku could make it to tell Vegeta about his plan, that would be screwed...

I know I got a bit off topic but these things just had to be said didn't want to create a new thread about it.

And for those who says that DBZ characters themselfs haven't been hit by planet destroying attacks: When Vegeta first fought Goku on earth, he got hit by the Genki Dama (spirit bomb) and survived that. Kaio-sama stated him self that the attack can easely destroy the earth.

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Old 07-25-2006, 02:51 PM   #115
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
In DBZ the characters powerlevel increase chronogically up untill the end of the Frieza saga. That was also supposed to be the end of DBZ with Goku ending up dead. After that their powers aren't demenstrated quite well. There are so many I don't even know where to start, but I mention a few ones. Some ppl keep refering to the time where Goku was training in the other world and he had trouble lifting those 40 tons in his normal state and hence basing his strength at that. But Frieza lifted a mounten which Goku even managed to stop with his strengh (not ki) in his normal form. And surely he was MANY times stronger that in the other world. Another thing on that scene (when Goku was fighting Frieza) was why Goku didn't just fly through that mounten when surely rocks cant hurt him, yet he looked afraid. He does fly through it right after stopping it though.
And another thing is their speeds. People refer to Gotenks flying over the world few (8?) times in 30 min (correct me if it's not 30 min), which makes his speed a little over 600.000 km/hr or about 180 km/sec. But Goku flew 1000.000 km (the snakeway) in about a day, which makes his full speed at THAT time a around 400.000 km/hr or 115 km/sec, so Gotenks speed must be much higher.
Another thing about speed:
Well we now from Bulma that the distance from earth to Namek is 4339,25 ly, which mean it'll take that many years by traveling with the speed of light to namek. Goku's spaceship got there in about 6 days, which makes that ships speed about 4339,25ly/6days = 260.000 times the speed of light. Now Kaio could follow that ship by communicating with Goku and ect. which means his senses or whatever you would call it, and could keep up with that speed. But when Goku went SSJ when fighting Frieza they moved so fast that even Kaio-sama couldn't keep up with them, he states him self that this has never happend before, because those 2 are moving SO fast! But he could keep up with the spaceship, so by simple logic SSJ Goku's and Frieza's speed most be beyond 260.000c!!!
The inconsistensies begin after the Frieza saga, like their powers not having that huge amount of "side-effect" to the surroundings like in the Frieza saga. Examples: A simple energy blast from Frieza was like a nuke, when he transformed his energy disturbed the atmospher, and there are many more in that saga (the best saga IMO). Surely the fights after that should have been more impressive. Because they (at least some of them) ARE stronger and faster after that saga (in the Cell and Buu saga).

One might even say that the sagas after the Frieza saga is a bit like GT only Akira creating it. He probably didn't spend as much time on those sagas as for the sagas uptill and incl the Frieza's.
DBZ charachters are obviously alot stronger then they look like... I'll just ignore things like Goku having trouble lifting 40 tons or SSJ4 Goku having trouble lifting half a city.

Btw things like the time they take to powerup or transform into a SSJ or Super Buu taking alot of time to find Goku and Vegeta, is probably just to make show more exciting. If Buu just found them in a slitsecond before Goku could make it to tell Vegeta about his plan, that would be screwed...

I know I got a bit off topic but these things just had to be said didn't want to create a new thread about it.

And for those who says that DBZ characters themselfs haven't been hit by planet destroying attacks: When Vegeta first fought Goku on earth, he got hit by the Genki Dama (spirit bomb) and survived that. Kaio-sama stated him self that the attack can easely destroy the earth.
OMG! Thank you.
I could have never said it better.
Looks like even I underestimated Goku with that 40 tons BS.

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Old 07-25-2006, 02:53 PM   #116
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by ster
looks like Goku would win this one
He'll always win.It could be Vegeta vs Mewtwo
Goku wins.
Superman vs Gohan
Goku wins
Broly vs the hulk
Goku wins
the patriots vs the eagles
Goku wins.

Its the deus ex-machina thing, I guess.

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Old 07-26-2006, 02:01 AM   #117
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Cool Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jplaya2023
Superman Prime is folklore with a few pictures and what not. He hasnt actually fought anyone yet so we dont know the extent of his abilities. Pre Crisis superman may be stronger as far as raw strength to an untrained SSJ, but a SSJ is infinately faster and stronger in the sense of battle speed, better fighting skills, tactics, and more endurance from a damage standpoint depending on the type of enemy faced.
Man, There you go again with Goku (any DBZ character) would win because they are a better fighter. Goku couldn't do half the things Pre-Crisis Superman could do. You don't get it. Pre-Crisis Superman is too powerful for Goku and so strong, that comic writers had to power him down. Not everything is a fight to the finish DBZ-type fight.

...and you still didn't tell me how SSJ3 is more powerful than Pre-Crisis Superman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Herald9
I think he's talking about how Post-crisis Supes can hurl billions of tons, toss ships the size of moons,and stop planets in their orbits. While Pre-Crisis Superman could toss planets when he was a kid and could easily speed faster then the time barier. He could also blow out stars with a single breath and sneaze away solar systems and could shrug off blasts of anti-matter.

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Old 07-26-2006, 02:02 AM   #118
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Cool Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth7d
He'll always win.It could be Vegeta vs Mewtwo
Goku wins.
Superman vs Gohan
Goku wins
Broly vs the hulk
Goku wins
the patriots vs the eagles
Goku wins.

Its the deus ex-machina thing, I guess.
Goku is a hero to some people so he'll never lose.
People can't accept that he can lose and will think up 100 stupid reason why he can, just like many people say Batman can beat anyone with Prep-time or build a instant kill gun.

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Old 07-26-2006, 08:10 AM   #119
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Warhammer
Man, There you go again with Goku (any DBZ character) would win because they are a better fighter. Goku couldn't do half the things Pre-Crisis Superman could do. You don't get it. Pre-Crisis Superman is too powerful for Goku and so strong, that comic writers had to power him down. Not everything is a fight to the finish DBZ-type fight.

...and you still didn't tell me how SSJ3 is more powerful than Pre-Crisis Superman.
because this is a fight and goku is a better fighter so what exactly am i wrong again???? Its great that superman prime can sneeze galaxies out of existence and **** out moons or whatever whoopty doo. But in a fight he gets owned point blank simple.


I think SSJ is more powerful than Pre Crisis superman, ssj3 is overkill.

The only evidence u have otherwise is "well superman lifted a galaxy and threw it 500 miles" Or something off topic like that.

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Old 07-26-2006, 10:35 AM   #120
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jplaya2023
I think SSJ is more powerful than Pre Crisis superman, ssj3 is overkill.
Well SSJ was supposed to be the ultimate power in DBZ, that's also very well illustrated in the Frieza saga. But the other levels aren't demonstrated quit well, yet they are supposed to be overkill compared to SSJ. But when you watch it they look more like weaker than stronger. The fights on Namek should give people the impression of how powerfull the fighters are, but after that, you don't get that impression...

As for the fight, I think that when Vegeta first came down to earth, he would be as strong as the Superman from the animated series or the one from JLU...
Superman Prime reminds me of Amazo from JLU.

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Old 07-26-2006, 01:11 PM   #121
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Superman Prime reminds me of Amazo from JLU.
Ehh... Superman Prime, Amazo?
Are you sure you donīt mess hm up with Superboy Prime?

Superman Primeīs feats:
1, Can re-create planetīs and give life (Re-created Krypton and gave every being there life).
2, Gave Loise Lane life and then immortality.
3, No one in the universe dared to fight him.
4, He flied so fast he was able to reverse and rewind time.
5, He could fly through different realities.
6, He was basicly immue to physical damage (-every hit was absorbed by his body), and immortal.
7, He was immue to kryptonite.
8, He flied in warp-speed.
9, He beat the Spectre.
10, He moved a galaxy with a thought

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Old 07-26-2006, 01:19 PM   #122
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

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Originally Posted by Jplaya2023
because this is a fight and goku is a better fighter so what exactly am i wrong again???? Its great that superman prime can sneeze galaxies out of existence and **** out moons or whatever whoopty doo. But in a fight he gets owned point blank simple.
Unless they're in a martial arts tournemant and they're being judged solely on technique or something, I fail to see how that reasoning holds up.

They can kick him a million times in a second and shoot energy balls as much as they want. If it can't hurt him (Superman Prime for example) it doesn't make a difference.

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Old 07-26-2006, 01:36 PM   #123
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

In terms of Goku and Superman Prime, better fighting skills don't matter.

If a skinny guy gets in some s*** with a body builder, will the skinny guy win because he is a better fighter?

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Old 07-26-2006, 01:40 PM   #124
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Perhaps A.M.A.Z.O from JLU (the Android) can't do some of the things you mention, but if you have seen JLU you would now what his capable of.

Quote:
1, Can re-create planetīs and give life (Re-created Krypton and gave every being there life).
2, Gave Loise Lane life and then immortality.
If we are talking about fighting, then this skill means nothing...

Quote:
3, No one in the universe dared to fight him.
Ok... What does this has to do with what I said?

Quote:
4, He flied so fast he was able to reverse and rewind time.
So how fast was that?

Quote:
5, He could fly through different realities.
Cool, that Android could do similar stuff. Teleported the Green Lantern planet to another dimension.

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6, He was basicly immue to physical damage (-every hit was absorbed by his body), and immortal.
Immune to Lex Luthor's punches? Immortal, kewl..

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7, He was immue to kryptonite.
Ok... Even though the Android absorbed Supermans weakness, he later evolved and was immune too. But why do people refer to this all the time? When we consider fights, we don't say I can kill you by using your weakness... It's like saying a nerd kid with glasses can kill Bruce Lee with a gun, because his not immune to bullets...

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8, He flied in warp-speed.
So, he can fly faster than the speed of light? Wow I'm impressed... That Android could do that too.
But Green Lantern flies across the Galaxy, surly he most be able to travel faster than the speed of light too.

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9, He beat the Spectre.
Don't know how strong he is...

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10, He moved a galaxy with a thought
Ok, kewl ability...

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Old 07-26-2006, 05:57 PM   #125
LouFerignoDemon
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Default Re: vegata( when he first came to earth) vs superman

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
Perhaps A.M.A.Z.O from JLU (the Android) can't do some of the things you mention, but if you have seen JLU you would now what his capable of.



If we are talking about fighting, then this skill means nothing...
Actually, the ability to manifest would also lend to the thought of demanifestation, since it would be the same amount of energy required to create something from nothing. (IE Beyond infinite amounts.)



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Originally Posted by MSGohan
Ok... What does this has to do with what I said?
Nobody really wanted to fight that Amazo either unless they had to. Ditto would roll with Superman Prime.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
So how fast was that?
Physically breaching the luminal barrier.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
Cool, that Android could do similar stuff. Teleported the Green Lantern planet to another dimension.
Prime actually breached other dimensions with his physical power alone. He didn't have some sort of energy gimmick that moved things out of phase with one another. He simply just flew into another dimension.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
Immune to Lex Luthor's punches? Immortal, kewl..
XD That's awesome that you actually said that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
Ok... Even though the Android absorbed Supermans weakness, he later evolved and was immune too. But why do people refer to this all the time? When we consider fights, we don't say I can kill you by using your weakness... It's like saying a nerd kid with glasses can kill Bruce Lee with a gun, because his not immune to bullets...
Wrong AMAZO. And if you're going by THAT AMAZO, THAT AMAZO sucked in comparison to JLU AMAZO.


And because the nerd kid is smart enough to utilize a gun doesn't invalidate the fight. Technically, using your brain is allowed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
So, he can fly faster than the speed of light? Wow I'm impressed... That Android could do that too.
But Green Lantern flies across the Galaxy, surly he most be able to travel faster than the speed of light too.
Circumventing the luminal barrier and shattering it physically are two WAAAAAAY different things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
Don't know how strong he is...
Only the judgment of God himself, and proclaimed to be the most powerful being in the universe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSGohan
Ok, kewl ability...
"Kewl" ability indeed.

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