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Old 08-23-2006, 04:54 PM   #26
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

It sounds like to me that there was a bigger problem here of posters who disagree not respecting one another. No matter who makes a film there are going to be three catogories -- hated it, loved it, and the thought it was merely okay party. No matter which party any of us are in it is important to respect those that disagree. Having big arguments back and forth probably isn't going to change anyone's mind about what they saw and it only builds gaps between us. We are above all else Hypsters and that makes us family. This is just a movie and there is no profit in attacking one another because one guy liked it and another guy didn't. My point is, we shouldn't be attacking each other at all.

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express it. The only issue for me is some of the carping gets a little rude and outta whack. For example, I hate sweet and sour pork. I think having pineapple in my dinner entree is disgusting. But I don't go on sweetandsourpork.com and voice how much I hate that dish every day, citing the exact same reasons, backing my claims with absurd minutae like the biology behind taste buds, calling any chef who makes sweet and sour pork a hack and telling anyone who does like it they are a moron with inferior taste and know nothing of fine cuisine. Cuz that would be rude and demonstrate a lack of wisdom on my part. Oh maybe if I was in a bad mood I might express my opinion once in the spirit of healthy debate and to let my opinion be known, but then I would get over it and go eat a pizza (with NO pineapple on it BTW). EVEN IF it was my 20th high school reunion and the person who took the time to organize it decided to have the dinner be sweet and sour pork, I wouldn't be like "Argggh this is our 20th high school reunion why did you make the dinner be sweet and sour pork, you moron, plus the chef was sloppy and the meal was rushed, and now I hafta wait til the 40th reunion for the person who organizes THAT to have good sense and order pizza!!! Oh if only Brittany Smith, who organized the 5- and 10-year reunions and rightly ordered pizza and KNEW how to organize a reunion, had organized this one, it woulda been so much better!!!" Well, some people at the reunion, even if they were the ones who rode the short bus, maybe liked the sweet and sour pork and also had a good time at the reunion, and some people didn't like the pizza and were bored at Brittany's reunions. Some people maybe had a good time at all of them, appreciating them for what they were, and the miserbale ones at ALL the reunions were, well, miserable just like they were in high school and always will be. It's not all about me, and I wouldn't stand on a chair doing a Norma Rae impersonation shouting "NO MORE SWEET AND SOUR PORK!!" even if my noble intentions were to liberate the morons at my reunion from the shackles of their ignorant bliss. That would show I lack perspective on life and probably need professional help. Point is there are plenty of other X-Men things for me to enjoy, some I like and some I don't, and if nothing pleases me I can always dream about my own vision before I fall asleep, or make my own movie/manips/fan fiction/screenplay to pitch/whatever. Why be so passive and expect other people to make u happy? Actually, if you liked X1 and X2 but not X3, two outta three ain't bad all things considered. And if you liked all three, like me, then you are lucky. (The people who hated all three are batting .000!!!) I just think it's dumb to waste time being rude and bitter over your disappointments, no matter how severe. Actually I hate a LOT of the X-Men comics, especially in the Phoenix Force retcon era. I felt Jean's character would've been much more interesting had they not blamed the destruction of D'Bari on an outside force. Plus it got so confusing. But no one can take the original Phoenix Saga away from me--thank you Claremont, Byrne, Cockrum, et al!!! Anyways "Endsong" resolved all that and life is good, and that reminds me........."Warsong"!!! What I'm trying to say is it's not about accepting mediocrity; it's about accepting reality.
P.S. Sorry it's just one long paragraph lol!!!!

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Hard to read but a nice analogy.

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:04 PM   #29
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

^^ I know sorry I just kept typing lolol!!1

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

you know, even more annoying than the bickering...is the people who purposely start flamebait threads....like this one. Hell, we've got freaking mods starting threads they should know wpnt end in a positive manner.

This is what, the third thread complaining about stupid, useless, inane crap?

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:23 PM   #31
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

What did you have for lunch Phoenix Risen? The post is ok, but do you read sweet and sour pork books or watch its movies? I don't think so.
I did enjoy the X2 movie, and when I saw that X3 was going to come up with the bonus of the Beast, I think I gave out all my expectations for it. When I watched the movie, I realised immediately it didn't have the same quality as Spiderman or Hulk or X2 itself. That's when my BIG dissapointment came in. Beast's (as Kelsey Grammer!!) FIRST appearence wasn't at all looked over with depth and they didn't use at all the X2 style, and so other reasons that have been said over and over. After my BIG disssapointment entered my BIG hate for the movie. That's when the opinions came out. So we really need to express ourselves after all this 'hate'.

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by La_She-Beast
After my BIG disssapointment entered my BIG hate for the movie. That's when the opinions came out. So we really need to express ourselves after all this 'hate'.
Damn right. I hate TLS with passion! It sucked and held no respect for the fans what-so-ever. I wish it was never made.



I feel so much better now.

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:34 PM   #33
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Stating opinions is ok. Giving reasons for those opinions is great too. But to declare opinions as facts and declare them to be binding law is just plain wrong. That's what makes people angry. I've come across some posters who had open minds and were wondering about how some events turned out and why and about possible outcomes. We've had some great dialogue about that and came up with some well thought out explanations that satisfied both parties. Example: people asking what could have happened to Scott, and discussing possible, plausible ways for him to have survived and why.
But I've also come across others who try to beat things into people by essentially banging a gavel on their heads. Example: People declaring that Scott is dead because the movie says so, case closed, stop whining. And THAT's not fair.

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:37 PM   #34
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by La_She-Beast
What did you have for lunch Phoenix Risen? The post is ok, but do you read sweet and sour pork books or watch its movies? I don't think so.
SORRY I had to run to lunch is why I had to type fast and I had a sandwich BTW (it was OK). No I would never read a book on sweet and sour pork ewwww but maybe some people would??

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:46 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
And just as you genuinely dislike the movie, we genuinely like the movie.

I haven't seen anyone calling anyone else a "whiney fanboy" or anything else because they didn't like the movie.

What I have seen is yourself, LastSunrise, and Disclaimer, and others, calling people like X-Maniac and those of us who liked it "loyalists", or whatever else, saying we need to "raise our standards".

LastSunrise, I appreciate that you can respect my viewpoint and my opinion, but why can you not respect X-Maniac's as well? I have had plenty of disagreements with X-Maniac in the past, and I feel that sometimes he's had unrealistic "desires" so to speak, for what could have and should have happened with these movies. But never once have I ever seen him insult anyone for their opinion. And on the same token, I've never insulted him for his. We've had our agreements and disagreements, debates against each other, or in the case of X-Men: The Last Stand, debates on each other's side. I've never seen X-Maniac, nor a lot of the people you're calling out, attack anyone because of their opinion. They've expressed disagreement of a certain view, and debated it.
You can respect my opinion, and I appreciate that. But why can't you express their's? I don't think it's fair to X-Maniac and the others that enjoyed the movie that there opinion isn't respected because they didn't make a novel of a post explaining why they enjoyed the movie. If you actually read X-Maniac's debates and what he says, you will see why he enjoyed the movie. Certain things just didn't bother him.

I visited my brother on the other side of the country a couple weeks ago, and after a trip to the comic shop, we were talking about the movie. He hasn't seen it yet, and I was asking him what he thought of the previous 2. He liked them, because although he's a comic fan, he doesn't expect 100% comic book accuracy in the movies. And I told him his enjoyment of X-Men: The Last Stand will depend of how much inaccuracy you're willing to accept.

And that's all it is. Those of us who enjoyed it, the things that bothered you don't bother us. And as you can see from this post I created to start this thread, the things that you find inconsistant, we can see how it actually works with what's been established.

To ntcrawler, my opinion is not up for debate. Just as yours isn't. I'm not telling you to think like me. I'm telling you what I think. Why I think what happened in X-Men: The Last Stand fits with what's been established in X-Men and X-Men: United. I think that Jean's "nightmares" she mentions in X2 are the hints of her alter ego beginning to surface a bit. You don't buy it? Fine. That's why you didn't enjoy the movie, because you didn't find it to be consistant. I did. And that's not up for debate.
I respect you because you're intelligent, honest, and have a great understanding of the comics. You haven't insulted anyone for difference of opinion, nor have you claimed your opinion to be an absolute fact.

X-Maniac has been rude, unintelligent, and has gone out of his way to constantly twist and turn others words just so he can make sure his argument is right and others are wrong. When facts about the movie, about the comics, and so forth have been presented to him, instead of trying to learn and understand where we might be coming from, the defensive side of him kicks in and all of a sudden he's insulting us by calling us whiners, defending Fox blindly, and making fun of us "whiney fanboys".

Maybe he's responded to you a lot differently than he has to myself, ntcrawler, Kurosawa, and The Batman.

But as far as I'm concerned; I respect you Nell a hell of a lot more than I'll ever respect X-Maniac. At least you provide intelligent reasoning, is fair, and don't try to patronize anyone because of their displeasure with this movie.

I don't respect posters who blindly follow a product, who claim themselves to be know it alls, and have even gone as far as to place mocking signatures of other posters at the end of their post.

I don't respect people who, instead of educating themselves on the subject, would rather argue, lie, spin words, and make excuses just to make sure that they're right and you're wrong. What he doesn't understand is that there are people who are passionate about comic book movies.

Imagine if the Batman fans just stopped screaming after Batman and Robin? There never would've been a Batman Begins and more than likely Ashton Kutcher(who was in the main running to be Bruce/Batman) would've got the role and so on. So fans can definitely make a difference. I'm just expressing my opinion, offering comic book and movie facts, and somehow or another it ruffles peoples featers who are uneducated on the particular concept.

What gets me about X3 is the changes, the politics, and the lies that were said to get people in the theater. I'll be frank with you. I wouldn't have had any problems with this film and I probably wouldn't be as bitter about it if Ratner, Kinberg, and Penn had been straight up about it instead of lying their asses off when the heat got too hot.

If they had just said, some changes deviate from the source material, yes we killed Cyclops, and yes we're using the same script that AICN posted, I'm sure no one would feel as angry as some do, you know? But the fact that they lied and try to justify their actions? No. It doesn't fly with me.


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Old 08-23-2006, 05:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

By the by.....Now, many of you have claimed that people who've liked the movie have not acted in a harsh or disrespectful manner. We all know thats not true. and because I've got time on my hands, I've decided to live up to my namesake, and do some detective work....


Exhibit A: Now...Though Nell sings the praises of this movie now, his first review wasnt so nice. Here it is:

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=410

Now...here is the reaction from some of the people positive about the movie:

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=417

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=431

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=441

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=470

MY GOD, LOOK AT THAT!!!

Nell...the one guy who stayed optimistic in this flurry of chaos....and the minute he says he was disappointed about the movie HE WAS BASHED TO HELL. X-Maniac even went as far to say that he wasnt a true X-Fan. they all said he only hated the flick because GAMBIT WASNT IN THE MOVIE. It couldnt have been at the time that he just had problems with it....Noooooo...he was just upset about tiny details.

More later

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

My biggest gripe is trying to discuss things with people who consistently take a stand what what happens in the movie is right and correct because that's what happens in the movie, or because the book is correct and appropriate because it says so, without any consideration to what's really going on, or how preposterous the concept that they are defending. We try to point out that a concept might be flawed, and others point out that they have no problem with it. No reasons given, just that they like it, and that's supposed to end the debate.

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:57 PM   #38
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

But THEN....Nell retracted his statement....Said the movie was better the second time...yaddda yadda yadaa....here are responses from some of the people who bashed him before:

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...0&postcount=21

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...6&postcount=55

Notice....how they're nicer to him....now that his view on the movie is positive.

And theres more folks!

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"



I don't care if nell changed his mind since, this is still the best fan-review of TLS I ever read.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:01 PM   #40
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman

Nell...the one guy who stayed optimistic in this flurry of chaos....and the minute he says he was disappointed about the movie HE WAS BASHED TO HELL. X-Maniac even went as far to say that he wasnt a true X-Fan. they all said he only hated the flick because GAMBIT WASNT IN THE MOVIE. It couldnt have been at the time that he just had problems with it....Noooooo...he was just upset about tiny details.

More later
So why is Nell so angry about this debate and hatred for the movie in the first place? After all, it looks like he's one of the people who started this debate as soon as the movie first came out. That was certainly before I was a part of SHH or even heard of them. If anything, Nell should be happy that the momentum is still going and that the discussions are still so passionate and lively.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:02 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
So why is Nell so angry about this debate and hatred for the movie in the first place? Looks like he's one of the people who started it. That was certainly before I was a part of SHH or even heard of them. If anything, Nell should be happy that the momentum is still going and that the discussions are still so passionate and lively.
That is quite a good point...but the intent of my post was to show...that when you have a negative view on the movie...people will POUNCE on you...and Nell should know that better than anyone else.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

It's Ironic. That initial review by Nell of the movie is one of the things that helped to vindicate my feelings and let me know that not only I wasn't the only one who felt that way, but there were other people not afraid to voice their distaste.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:09 PM   #43
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman
By the by.....Now, many of you have claimed that people who've liked the movie have not acted in a harsh or disrespectful manner. We all know thats not true. and because I've got time on my hands, I've decided to live up to my namesake, and do some detective work....


Exhibit A: Now...Though Nell sings the praises of this movie now, his first review wasnt so nice. Here it is:

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=410

Now...here is the reaction from some of the people positive about the movie:

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=417

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=431

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=441

http://superherohype.com/forums/show...&postcount=470

MY GOD, LOOK AT THAT!!!

Nell...the one guy who stayed optimistic in this flurry of chaos....and the minute he says he was disappointed about the movie HE WAS BASHED TO HELL. X-Maniac even went as far to say that he wasnt a true X-Fan. they all said he only hated the flick because GAMBIT WASNT IN THE MOVIE. It couldnt have been at the time that he just had problems with it....Noooooo...he was just upset about tiny details.

More later
And your point is???? Stirring up trouble, one assumes!?

My post quoted there was not an accusation. It was a statement that I believed true, that Nell had gone into the movie as a Singer fan first and foremost, that his 'perspective' was coloured by admiration for Bryan Singer's previous movies. My own perspective is as a fan of the comics for 30 years who enjoyed X1 and X2 (despite the disappointments) and was looking forward to the third movie (despite anxieties created by this site, despite insider knowledge via this forum i never had when seeing the first two movies)

I enjoy what Nell has to say, we've disagreed many times. But he's never stooped to the levels of LastSunrise.

It all depends how you view the movie - as a standalone movie that must have serious weight like Schindler's List, as a Bryan Singer follow-up, as a superhero movie, as an X-Men movie, as a Brett Ratner movie...

I've argued why I liked it; I've heard why people didn't like it.

Please stop trying to demonise me. Try to rise a little higher than the subterranean standards set by LastSunrise.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:10 PM   #44
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Talk about coming around. From your initial, exhaustive review, it sounded like the movie DIDN'T work for you and that you were clear that you wanted Bryan Singer back.

So we go from this:

Quote:
This movie was not the "X-Men" movie I've waited 3 years for. And this movie was not the movie I've been hyping up for the past year and a half.

...

And now I come home from seeing this movie, and all I can say is I want Bryan Singer back.

...

But we lost what these characters were about, and lost what we loved about them in the first place. We lost what Singer truly understood.
And now to this:

Quote:
That's why X-Men: The Last Stand worked for me, and many others. And as you can see, I haven't even gotten to the "action and explosions for the sake of action and explosions" yet... I've been talking about what actually happened in this movie, the plot, the character, the depth.
Interesting how some people's opinions can change, and how strongly they seem to change. So what happened? Did seeing the movie 7 times help change your opinion? Did it help you realize the depth and character development that wasn't there? Or did you notice things that you didn't notice despite your exhaustive, detailed first review?

Quote:
They always say you should trust your first instinct, and this is a perfect case of that.
That's right, Nell. Good point about trusting your first instinct. I still do.

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He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

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Last edited by ntcrawler; 08-23-2006 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastSunrise1981
X-Maniac has been rude, unintelligent, and has gone out of his way to constantly twist and turn others words just so he can make sure his argument is right and others are wrong. When facts about the movie, about the comics, and so forth have been presented to him, instead of trying to learn and understand where we might be coming from, the defensive side of him kicks in and all of a sudden he's insulting us by calling us whiners, defending Fox blindly, and making fun of us "whiney fanboys".

But as far as I'm concerned; I respect you Nell a hell of a lot more than I'll ever respect X-Maniac. At least you provide intelligent reasoning, is fair, and don't try to patronize anyone because of their displeasure with this movie.

I don't respect posters who blindly follow a product, who claim themselves to be know it alls, and have even gone as far as to place mocking signatures of other posters at the end of their post.
Well, i don't have a mocking signature and i don't use phrases like 'whiners' or 'whiney fanboy' (which is an American slang expression I do not use). So I therefore assume you are very confused or inventing things because it cannot be me to whom you are referring.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:14 PM   #46
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
So why is Nell so angry about this debate and hatred for the movie in the first place? After all, it looks like he's one of the people who started this debate as soon as the movie first came out. That was certainly before I was a part of SHH or even heard of them. If anything, Nell should be happy that the momentum is still going and that the discussions are still so passionate and lively.
I'm not upset about discussion over the movie. I'm not upset about hatred for the movie.

Although my opinion has since changed since I posted my initial review, and I love the movie now, a lot of what I posted in that review still remains true to me.

On either end, I just hate the attacking the person, instead of the arguement, mentality that's running rampant through here.

Yes, I did take a beating by a few when I posted my review stating I was disappointed. But other than that, I haven't noticed a lot of bashing towards those who didn't like it. I have been seeing a lot of "you need to raise your standards" towards those that did like it. But maybe I'm just looking in the wrong areas.

It's definatley not the discussion, or the dislike of the movie. That stuff is fun. I enjoy a good debate.

What I don't enjoy, is feeling insulted because I share a different viewpoint than who I am debating with. And that goes for either side.

I don't condone anyone who did like the movie attacking those who didn't like it. I haven't seen that though. But again, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

What I can say is that although he did it to me, I don't see X-Maniac, or any of the others you are calling out, insulting you for disliking the movie. I see them offering their viewpoint because they disagree.

Don't take my wanting to stop the flaming for wanting to stop the discussion. I'm still here, because I still want to talk about this movie. And I'm glad that there are people here to discuss the movie with. I just don't want either party, my side, or my "opposition", to be insulted for their views on the movie.

Did you love the movie? Great. Talk about how much you loved it

Did you hate the movie? Great. Offer your counter points for why you feel the movie didn't work.

DON'T insult someone's intelligence because they liked it, and say they need to raise their standards. And DON'T call someone a whiney fanboy because they had some gripes with the movie.

I think we can all agree that the deviations in X-Men: The Last Stand go a bit beyond any "Dr." title for Jean Grey, or lack of yellow spandex, in X-Men and X2...

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:15 PM   #47
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And your point is???? Stirring up trouble, one assumes!?

My post quoted there was not an accusation. It was a statement that I believed true, that Nell had gone into the movie as a Singer fan first and foremost, that his 'perspective' was coloured by admiration for Bryan Singer's previous movies. My own perspective is as a fan of the comics for 30 years who enjoyed X1 and X2 (despite the disappointments) and was looking forward to the third movie (despite anxieties created by this site, despite insider knowledge via this forum i never had when seeing the first two movies)

I enjoy what Nell has to say, we've disagreed many times. But he's never stooped to the levels of LastSunrise.

It all depends how you view the movie - as a standalone movie that must have serious weight like Schindler's List, as a Bryan Singer follow-up, as a superhero movie, as an X-Men movie, as a Brett Ratner movie...

I've argued why I liked it; I've heard why people didn't like it.

Please stop trying to demonise me. Try to rise a little higher than the subterranean standards set by LastSunrise.

My point is that alot of you need to stop acting like your patron saints because you liked the movie. And you've said on more than one occasion that people who didnt like the movie arent true X-Fans.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:18 PM   #48
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Speaking from a non-fanboy perspective, this movie had many problems with it. The running time is the main source behind everything. It left no room to take anything in, like when Magneto left behind Mystique. I should've felt sadness but I didn't, because I wasn't allowed the time to do so. Another problem with the movie was the character development. We were given a rather shotty explanation for why Jean has become the way she has. X1 and X2 were leading for her to become the next step in evolution, but according to Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg she's schiznophrenic?? Another character who suffered because of poor development was Angel. What was his point in the movie? Ok, so he's the reason for the Cure, but why was he given the subplot of his relationship with Warren Sr. when that was given barely any attention to it? One last problem I had was with the dialogue. "You never learn, do you?" "Actually, I do." Cringe-worthy. It's as if the writers were lazy.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:18 PM   #49
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Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

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I think we can all agree that the deviations in X-Men: The Last Stand go a bit beyond any "Dr." title for Jean Grey, or lack of yellow spandex, in X-Men and X2...
We can agree with that, of course. However, changes like this, and giveng Jean an M.D./PhD does not hurt the character in any way, neither does changing Wolverine's uniform from bright yellow to black. Changes like that don't destroy what the characters are about or the basic concepts behind them or their storyline. And regardless of the flaws and shortcomings of X1 and X2, the most important thing they had going for themselves was that 1) you knew there would be more, there would be another movie and 2) 1/2 the cast didn't actually die for what was essentially plot-device reasons, thus dead-ending the storyline. When characters survive, you always have another chance to make things better. But when you kill the characters, that's it. Unless you backtrack to the fork in the road and take the other turn. Which incidentally has been done, so there is historical precedent for this.

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Old 08-23-2006, 06:22 PM   #50
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http://superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231479

you know what the original title of that thread was?

"Safe Haven for those of us who still have a brain"

And then, the topic starter describes anyone who isnt positive about the movie as a looney.

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