The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > X-Men > X-Men 1, 2 & 3

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-23-2006, 11:41 PM   #101
newwaveboy87
automatic systematic
 
newwaveboy87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 30,523
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

i'm sorry...i couldn't resist.

__________________
Here I go, falling down, down, down,
My mind is a blank,
My head is spinning around and around,
As I go deep into the funnel of love


Tumblr

Liz Lemon is my spirit animal
newwaveboy87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 01:01 AM   #102
JP
Smelly
 
JP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 53,028
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Great first post Nell. I must agree with all your points.

I'm still torn between the movie, though. Sometimes I love, other times I'm not so thrilled. It's a very odd situation for me.

JP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 05:33 AM   #103
Nell2ThaIzzay
Banned User
 
Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 16,635
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
Nell had asked on here where he might obtain a copy of the Phoenix saga, at around the time of the movie coming out, probably just before it. A lot of us were surprised at those on here who hadn't taken time to investigate the source material of this classic saga. At that time, he hadn't read the comics, as far as I recall.

I don't regard myself as rude, but your posts with 'BLAH BLAH' are certainly no sign of politeness. Why not thrill me with an intelligent argument, it's never too late.
I hadn't read the comics version of the Phoenix Saga.

I have read X-Men comics. Many of them.

I don't claim to be an X-Men comics expert... my first experience with the X-Men was with the Animated Series as a kid growing up, and it was my favorite thing in the world. My only comics were some "hand me downs" from my brother, which were The Punisher, mainly, and a couple other random comics here or there. And because I loved the old CBS TV show so much, I also bought some Flash comics as a kid.

I never collected too many comics at all as a kid, and the ones that I really wanted (X-Men), I was never able to get into my collection for whatever reason. Going into X-Men, all I had was the animated series to back up my "did they get it right" side of me.

After I saw X-Men, I began collecting X-Men comics, a collection I am pretty proud of today. Sure, it's not a full collection. There's a LOT of stuff I am missing (the Phoenix Saga being part of it), but I do have a pretty good selection, ranging from X-Men, Volume 1 Issue #20, all the way through some more recent story arcs like The Draco. As a Gambit fan, I pride myself on my Gambit collection, having Uncanny #265, #266, and #267. I have Uncanny #350, which I recently aquired after a very long search for it, along with the 4 issues before it building up to the climax in #350. Plus, I have many other great X-Men issues that heavily revolve around Gambit, and his past with characters like Sabretooth (one of my personal favorite backstories, seeing as how much I love Gambit), as well as my all time favorite single issue X-Men (vol 2) #4, where the X-Men team up with Ghost Rider to fight off the Brood who has taken over the guilds in New Orleans, and Bella Donna dies in the ordeal.

As an X-Men fan, I have some great issues like Juggernaut's first appearance, Bishop's first appearance, and a recently aquired X-Men (vol. 1) #20, that I haven't read yet, that explains how Xavier lost the use of his legs.

And for all the stuff that I don't have yet, I've done massive research to help better educate myself on these characters that I love so deeply.

I may have started collecting X-Men comics a bit later than a lot of people on here, but my love of these characters is just as strong, just as deep, and not based on one man's (Bryan Singer) interpretation of them. I have loved these characters since well before the movies came to be, and although I am by no means an expert on the source material, I think I have a pretty damned good understanding of it. I might not be able to give you the details of certain story arcs, the Phoenix Saga in particular, but I definatley understand the general concept of it, and the foundation of the story arc.

I understand that my story might not be yours, and I might not have read these comics for 30 years or more (I haven't even been alive that long!), but I severly doubt that my love for these characters and their world is inferior to anybody's. And I know you're not calling me this now, and this was something said in the past, but one thing that I take offense to (and there are very few things that I take offense to) is when somebody thinks something false of me. And that was your accusation that I was not a fan of the comics, nor the X-Men outside of Bryan Singer's world. I've been a loyal fan of the X-Men since before I knew who Bryan Singer was, since before Patrick Stewart was even done portraying Jean-Luc Picard on Star Trek: The Next Generation.

My viewpoint on certain things X-Men might be different from someone who's followed the comics for decades (as an example, see all of my pre-X3 complaints about Kitty Pryde), but my fandom is not something to be taken into question.

Nell2ThaIzzay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 05:43 AM   #104
XCharlieX
Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,231
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Maniac
A lot of us were surprised at those on here who hadn't taken time to investigate the source material of this classic saga.
Well, around 1994 or 5 i was more interested in the characters alone and began collecting cards for like 3 years straight of marvel. Interest more in the profile of the characters themselves is a sign of why i prefer movies. I saw TAS of x-men on tv and found it cool, but film sensibilities were always my favorite, even with batman 89. I grew up on that film before any cards or anything.

I might be a film fan but i know some basic characters etc of the marvel comic verse thanks to my 300 or so cards i still have.


Last edited by XCharlieX; 08-24-2006 at 06:43 AM.
XCharlieX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 05:49 AM   #105
Nell2ThaIzzay
Banned User
 
Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 16,635
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddessreicho
Love the new sig Ntcrawler.

I have refrained from this thread for a while now, but I think I can finally put my thoughts in words.

Let me start by saying what I thought of the first two movies. I hated them. No really, there was for me to hate than like. When I left the midnight premire of the first movie, I was angry. I wanted my 8.00 dollars back. I was bored and unimpressed by the flat attempt at a reimagining of a cultural icon I grew up with. The only two things in the movie that didn't make me want to pull out my hair were Patrick and Ian. Everyone else was less than a shadow of their counterparts. No complex characters, faults, or with personalities. Singer and crew (writers and actors) IMO missed the mark completely. Then to give us a generic evil plan and a generic evil mechanical device to one of the most complex characters in the MU. WTF! The other six people I was with felt the same way.

The ony people who had any story or importance to the plot where Wolverine and Rogue. It was only for a brief moment that we were able to see what makes the x-men, well x-men. Teamwork. When getting tossed around by Toad, and the final part of the Statue of Liberty before everyone was rescued by Wolverine, again.

This pattern continued with X2. None of the flaws that were there before were fixed. It was like nobody had the guts to tell them what went wrong. Scott and Jean were overlooked and underwhelmed. Storm was ignored, why IMO to much anomosity between alot of people and it was taken out on screen and it came of badly for the character. Rogue was trumped up a bit with personality, finally, but then was stuck with dry, flat, boring, and soft Bobby. *Yawn!* Again the sense of teamwork was overtaken by Wolverine's over extended fight with Yuriko and his backstory which was pounded into us, yet again. Also Scott and his realationship took a backseat to Logan and his libido.

I find it ironic that people LOVE to complain about how in X3 people forgot about Scott, when he was kidnapped and totured in X2 and NO ONE EVEN MENTIONED HIM, nor did they look for him for an hour in the movie. Jean was surprised that she ran into him at Akali. That was wrong on so many levels. First of all she has a psychic bond with him, she should have known he was there. Again, they should have used Cerbro to find out that he was there.

Alot of people who hate X3 forget to mention that the same thing happened to Scott in X2.


My personal opinions on X3 are the similar. The major characters had holes and ran around doing things with no reason. It was oddly paced and strange alot. It went in a complete different direction. I hated the fact that Storm still served no purpose in the plot. Wolverine was still doing everything, and managed to d**k teamwork from behind.

Nothing changed, and I hated that. But X3 can be a launching pad for a new direction for upcoming sequels. More thorough writting would be essential.
With all do respect, they wouldn't have known what had happened to Scott, or the Professor. Remember, they left to visit Magneto, and got kidnapped from his prison. They weren't at the mansion when it was raided. So all Wolverine knew about were some of the kids getting kidnapped and taken by Stryker. Nobody knew what happened to Scott or Xavier, didn't know they were kidnapped, and had no idea where to look. And when they met with Wolverine who told them about the mansion raid, they had nowhere left to go.

And Jean was worried about Scott, I remember a couple instances of her saying "Scott, where are you", or in the forest at their camp site "I'm just worried about Scott"...

Nell2ThaIzzay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 06:33 AM   #106
Goddessreicho
Side-Kick
 
Goddessreicho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,747
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
With all do respect, they wouldn't have known what had happened to Scott, or the Professor. Remember, they left to visit Magneto, and got kidnapped from his prison. They weren't at the mansion when it was raided. So all Wolverine knew about were some of the kids getting kidnapped and taken by Stryker. Nobody knew what happened to Scott or Xavier, didn't know they were kidnapped, and had no idea where to look. And when they met with Wolverine who told them about the mansion raid, they had nowhere left to go.

And Jean was worried about Scott, I remember a couple instances of her saying "Scott, where are you", or in the forest at their camp site "I'm just worried about Scott"...
So goes the pattern. In X3 Wolverine finds the glasses at the lake. Wolverine mentions Scott in the Medlab, and Xavier mentions Scott to Jean at her house. See, no one actually forgot about him. Its just a pattern of nobody being all to crazy about him... which is sad.

In X2 your right, only Jean was thinking about Scott. But she wasn't all that concerned. Case in point the camp scene. Instead of us seeing Jean visable upset, what is it that comes to mind? The fact that she kissed Wolverine back. It was as one-sided as people like to think. When the kiss broke the first word out of her mouth should have been, "Scott."

All I'm saying is that his position as a second class citizen wasn't in X3 alone. We'd seen it before, but because X2 was such a "great" movie, it gets overlooked.

__________________
The best theory on Red Matter I've yet heard:
The death-knell of a billion red-shirts lost in duty, focusing their agony for a singular plot-point. -- The Internetz


Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Rest peacefully Mum
April 10th 1946
March 31st 2007


Goddessreicho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 07:22 AM   #107
flavio_lebeau
Side-Kick
 
flavio_lebeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 5,298
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

little off topic, but i just wanna say something for those who think Xavier went from a loving, caring person in X1 and 2 to a SOB in X3. I think this isnt truth at all. He was never intended to be a saint. If you remember, he always knew about Wolverine's past, he knew who he was. Did he tell Logan anything? He simply told him a place, a vague place, when he actually knew way more than that (as Magneto says in the prison). He was lying.

And in X3, i dont see him as a SOB. As he himself said, he chose the lesser of two worses. He was still caring (God, do you see his smile to Storm? I hadnt seen Professor laugh since X1, it was great. He showed he cared for her a lot. And a whole lot was subtle. For the first time, we see him looking at Rogue in the trilogy. And the look in his eyes is very caring, but subtle.). He goes to Jean's house and starts very lovely. He went to bring her home. But then, then Phoenix shows up, and he has to toughen up, to deal with that personality in equal. Even 2 seconds before he "dies", do you see the look in his face? Do you remember his last sentence? He truly loves Jean, he wants to save her. That was a great moment.

I dont see him as a SOB, i see him as a person, and as everyone in this world, he has his defects, his mistakes. He was, along with Magneto, the most 3d character of this trilogy.


Last edited by flavio_lebeau; 08-24-2006 at 07:25 AM.
flavio_lebeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 08:02 AM   #108
La_She-Beast
Side-Kick
 
La_She-Beast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 1,835
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

But, flavio- the WAY he was represented was rather cheap. He could have said some wise words, to show the sympathy he has with everybody- and here's when the classic dialogue comes in. IMO, the dialogue was very "we've hear that 1000 times, we want something new". "Don't let it control you", "Jean's death has affected him" It's like, duh, that was quite evident in X2, as far I remember. It didn't have depth, nor a meaning/intention to it.

OT-Speaking of quotes whom does Beast quote when he's fighting with Wolverine? In spanish it's: "as Churchill said...etc"

__________________
~Not a fan of Beast, but an admirer :P~
"You know, Maggie? The sooner kids talk, the sooner they talk back. I hope that you never say a word"

"Daddy"
La_She-Beast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 08:13 AM   #109
flavio_lebeau
Side-Kick
 
flavio_lebeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 5,298
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

I talked about people who think his personality changed. I dont think so. But i have to agree with that. I myself got tired of the "You of all people..." He says it two or three times...Bryan and his team are way better with words than Zak and Simon.
Although i do think the arguing he has with Logan is quite great.

OT- If i remember correctly, in here he also says Churchill.

flavio_lebeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 08:17 AM   #110
La_She-Beast
Side-Kick
 
La_She-Beast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 1,835
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
You're right. My initial review was very harsh, and any review of the movie that I'd give now would be very praising. And I can tell you exactly why I had such an initial "harsh" review.

-The ending of X2, along with all of the trailers and promotional material promised X-Men: The Last Stand to be a movie of epic proportions, with depth and character levels never seen before in a comic book movie. I will admit, I got caught up in the hype, and went in expecting a Return of the King style epic. I forgot that this was a comic book movie.

-X-Men: The Last Stand wasn't the epic that I had hyped myself to believe it was. Not only was it not the epic I expected it to be, there were also some VERY visible flaws. Though not as harsh, much of my original review remains consistant with my currect opinion. And one of thoses viewpoints is the pacing of the film. The movie wasn't what I expected it to be, plus it had some very glaring flaws that became even worse in my eyes, because I wasn't watching the movie I thought I was going to see.

-I knew EVERYTHING! People talk about the checklist of characters that needed to be killed off, well going into the movie, I had an even longer checklist of plot points and details to expect. Flashback intros? Check. Next. Danger Room? Check. Next. Moira McTaggert? Check. Next. Psi-Battle at Jean's childhood home? Check. Next. Magneto building an army? Check. Next. There wasn't anything that surprised me. And things that would have totally unleashed the fanboy in me, like the Danger Room, like seeing Moira McTaggert, like seeing a Sentinel head... they were all lost on me because I was already expecting it.

-And the most weak minded of all the reasons: My friend that I saw it with at the midnight showing hated it. Not seeing the movie I expected to see, seeing all the obvious flaws amplified by the fact that it wasn't the movie I expected, and knowing all of the cool things that would have fired me up had I not known about them from the get go, talking to a friend that totally hated the movie easily influenced a bit more the "hatred" that I felt for the film after I saw it the first time.

I then saw it the next day... alone because another friend of mine didn't want to go. I saw it, alone, because I knew even walking about of the midnight showing I wanted to see it one more time before coming to my official opinion. The movie's pacing slowed down a bit, and things just worked better. The reason being, my expectations now were a bit more realistic. I knew it wasn't going to be a Return of the King epic. And now that all the pre-production and AICN script review hype has worn off, I can go back and watch the movie with a bit less of a tainted viewpoint. And now, I see the qualities that the movie has to offer. Qualities that I was blind to the first time around, because I was looking for something totally different.

Yes, my opinion of the movie has taken a complete 180 turn... but there is still a lot of my review that remains accurate to my feelings towards the film. In fact, I went back to the link you posted and re-read my review, and I found myself still nodding my head to a few of the things I stated back then. This movie is flawed. And as great as it is (I like it better than X-Men still, though not as much as X-Men: United), I can probably still honestly say it's the most flawed of the 3. However, I've also been able to find the things that were done right with this film. And in my opinion, what was done right, and what remained consistant with the previous films, outweighs what was done wrong and what was inconsistant.
Even so, I think that some parts of your post seem as you felt pity of the guys who brought X3 to life. I think, that you shouldn't. When people like them have to work in a movie they have to take it seriously. I know that sounded obvious, but when I saw Brett Ratner in the clips, he seemed as he didn't take his job seriously at all. They had loads and loads of sources/material to work/experiment with, and everything was just "Oh yeah, let's see Wolverine kicking some Seninel's ass" or whatever. On the other hand, at least X2 had some 'surprises' and some emotional moments that FILLED me and demonstrated it was intentioned.

__________________
~Not a fan of Beast, but an admirer :P~
"You know, Maggie? The sooner kids talk, the sooner they talk back. I hope that you never say a word"

"Daddy"

Last edited by La_She-Beast; 08-24-2006 at 08:21 AM.
La_She-Beast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 08:51 AM   #111
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by La_She-Beast
But, flavio- the WAY he was represented was rather cheap. He could have said some wise words, to show the sympathy he has with everybody- and here's when the classic dialogue comes in. IMO, the dialogue was very "we've hear that 1000 times, we want something new". "Don't let it control you", "Jean's death has affected him" It's like, duh, that was quite evident in X2, as far I remember. It didn't have depth, nor a meaning/intention to it.
Wow... "Jean's death has affected him"...? Well yeah, like duh!!! And he sounds surprised! Like it's no longer affecting THEM but Scott's still upset and should snap out of it! Wow, what a great guy! :P

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 08:56 AM   #112
Jan Irisi
Side-Kick
 
Jan Irisi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,762
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by flavio_lebeau
I talked about people who think his personality changed. I dont think so. But i have to agree with that. I myself got tired of the "You of all people..." He says it two or three times...Bryan and his team are way better with words than Zak and Simon.
Although i do think the arguing he has with Logan is quite great.

OT- If i remember correctly, in here he also says Churchill.

I don't think it was his personality changing at all. As I said earlier, it I saw a veil being lifted, and everything becoming even clearer what the man was about. We saw a few more layers exposed in this film. His personality didn't change, we just saw a little more of it.

Jan Irisi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 09:00 AM   #113
flavio_lebeau
Side-Kick
 
flavio_lebeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 5,298
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Irisi
I don't think it was his personality changing at all. As I said earlier, it I saw a veil being lifted, and everything becoming even clearer what the man was about. We saw a few more layers exposed in this film. His personality didn't change, we just saw a little more of it.
thats what i thought.

flavio_lebeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 09:05 AM   #114
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Xavier knew enough about Logan's past from reading his mind and his overall knowledge of things to realize that these were things that Logan would rather not know. In addition, Xavier understood that sometimes when a person experiences memory loss, the best way to gain that knowledge is to let them rediscover it at their own pace, in their own way, instead of shoving information into a person's face. Seeing some of the disturbing things that Stryker told Logan, like "you were always an animal, I just gave you claws!" points to the fact that in his past existence Logan was not a nice guy. Towards the end of the movie Logan decides that he would rather take his chances with this new group of people he now knows he can trust with his life and start over, instead of learning about the monster he may have been before. Therefore, Xavier's wisdom had shown and he was right in how he had handled the situation with Logan's memories and his past life. A man like this I have no doubt would have used a more understanding and responsible approach towards Jean than what we were treated to in X3. It was inconsistent with Xavier from X1 and X2 and unbecoming of the character to just smother and control her like that.

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 09:16 AM   #115
Jan Irisi
Side-Kick
 
Jan Irisi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,762
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
Xavier knew enough about Logan's past from reading his mind and his overall knowledge of things to realize that these were things that Logan would rather not know. In addition, Xavier understood that sometimes when a person experiences memory loss, the best way to gain that knowledge is to let them rediscover it at their own pace, in their own way, instead of shoving information into a person's face. Seeing some of the disturbing things that Stryker told Logan, like "you were always an animal, I just gave you claws!" points to the fact that in his past existence Logan was not a nice guy. Towards the end of the movie Logan decides that he would rather take his chances with this new group of people he now knows he can trust with his life and start over, instead of learning about the monster he may have been before. Therefore, Xavier's wisdom had shown and he was right in how he had handled the situation with Logan's memories and his past life. A man like this I have no doubt would have used a more understanding and responsible approach towards Jean than what we were treated to in X3. It was inconsistent with Xavier from X1 and X2 and unbecoming of the character to just smother and control her like that.

IMO, as I see it, I think......

What happened made Xavier a much more interesting character. He was all goodness and niceness and omnipotent. He may have made the right decision with Wolverine, but in the case of Jean, maybe his decisions were the wrong way to go? Even with the Magneto character there were shades of gray there. He wasn't your average run of the mill villain. He wasn't pure pure evil, and in this film we see that Xavier wasn't really pure as the driven snow either. The man is capable of making missteps. Was he really wrong? Did the others view his decisions as wrong?

It's easier and far more interesting for me to watch a character with many layers than watching one who is always right, always perfect, never makes a wrong step. For me, even from the first film I knew there was something more to Xavier than what was presented.

Jan Irisi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 09:23 AM   #116
flavio_lebeau
Side-Kick
 
flavio_lebeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 5,298
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Irisi
IMO, as I see it, I think......

What happened made Xavier a much more interesting character. He was all goodness and niceness and omnipotent. He may have made the right decision with Wolverine, but in the case of Jean, maybe his decisions were the wrong way to go? Even with the Magneto character there were shades of gray there. He wasn't your average run of the mill villain. He wasn't pure pure evil, and in this film we see that Xavier wasn't really pure as the driven snow either. The man is capable of making missteps. Was he really wrong? Did the others view his decisions as wrong?

It's easier and far more interesting for me to watch a character with many layers than watching one who is always right, always perfect, never makes a wrong step. For me, even from the first film I knew there was something more to Xavier than what was presented.
this is exactly what i say. Why are people so obssessed on having a perfect Charles?????????? Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has defects. When he blocked Jean, he was younger. Who knows if what happened to her and her second personality devloping dint help him learning that he shouldnt manipulate people? Making him all wise, perfect, saint and goodie never made sense to me. I actually would love if Charles was the actual villain of the trilogy (if im not mistaken, it was planed in X1 to show that Xavier was manipulating all of his X-men, in a sequence involving Iceman, jean and others, but it was cut for money and ethical problems, right?)

I think it made his character a lot richer.

flavio_lebeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 09:39 AM   #117
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by flavio_lebeau
this is exactly what i say. Why are people so obssessed on having a perfect Charles?????????? Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has defects.
No, not a perfect Charles. Just a Charles who is a wise and compassionate father figure. Jean and her parents trusted him with her life. Same with Scott, Ororo, and the other older members of the X-Men. For him to betray their trust in such an unfair and manipulative way is wrong, especially when he had 20 years to fix his mistakes and adjust his strategy to prevent the damage, yet he did nothing. That's why.

Quote:
When he blocked Jean, he was younger. Who knows if what happened to her and her second personality devloping dint help him learning that he shouldnt manipulate people?
Again, Xavier had 20 years to fix his mistakes. And the way the movie portrays events, he did nothing. That is both wrong on a moral side, and also wrong for Xavier, who is supposed to be smarter than to realize there is a problem and to willingly let it grow out of control. And what's wrong with having someone who is wise and good? Maybe it can make the story boring for you, but in this crazy world, full of so many grey things, we need more people like that who we can trust with our lives.

Mainly because Jean would have been aware of what was going on, yet she was not resentful or angry at all, so there was no reason for that second personality to develop in the first place. Resentment and bitterness means Jean was angry at what was happening and did not like it, yet there is nothing to indicate she felt only the greatest respect and love for the man and went to great lengths to help him and save him in both X1 and X2.

Quote:
Making him all wise, perfect, saint and goodie never made sense to me. I actually would love if Charles was the actual villain of the trilogy
Well then maybe you certainly got what you wanted.

Quote:
(if im not mistaken, it was planed in X1 to show that Xavier was manipulating all of his X-men, in a sequence involving Iceman, jean and others, but it was cut for money and ethical problems, right?)
(well if it was never showed or filmed, then it never happened, right? Maybe there was a sequence that shows Xavier pulling a gun from his desk and shooting a student for talking in class, but we did not get that either )

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:13 AM   #118
flavio_lebeau
Side-Kick
 
flavio_lebeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 5,298
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
No, not a perfect Charles. Just a Charles who is a wise and compassionate father figure. Jean and her parents trusted him with her life. Same with Scott, Ororo, and the other older members of the X-Men. For him to betray their trust in such an unfair and manipulative way is wrong, especially when he had 20 years to fix his mistakes and adjust his strategy to prevent the damage, yet he did nothing. That's why.
Sorry, but i think that when he mentioned his "sessions" with the Phoenix, what do you think he did? I took it as a kind of psycanalist appointment between him and Jean to try to slowly get her back to normal. Maybe he just couldnt. We also dont know if he didnt try other ways. Maybe he tried to develop Jean, but she couldnt be controlled, maybe she was causing harm as an extreme mutant. Maybe it was the only way he saw, and he thought he could free her slowly, but he couldnt.
Maybe he made a mistake, but we dont know and we cant assume it was not wise. The circumstances of the situation are not explained in the movie. She might have killed people, making him go and block her powers...
I knoww, full of "maybes", but the movie doesnt show Jean's entire life, so we cant know.



Quote:
Again, Xavier had 20 years to fix his mistakes. And the way the movie portrays events, he did nothing. That is both wrong on a moral side, and also wrong for Xavier, who is supposed to be smarter than to realize there is a problem and to willingly let it grow out of control. And what's wrong with having someone who is wise and good? Maybe it can make the story boring for you, but in this crazy world, full of so many grey things, we need more people like that who we can trust with our lives.
I think the "sessions" were something to try and revert that situation.

Quote:
Mainly because Jean would have been aware of what was going on, yet she was not resentful or angry at all, so there was no reason for that second personality to develop in the first place. Resentment and bitterness means Jean was angry at what was happening and did not like it, yet there is nothing to indicate she felt only the greatest respect and love for the man and went to great lengths to help him and save him in both X1 and X2.
imho, the second personality developed simply as a consequence of the blocks. Since her powers come from subconscient, blocking her powers blocked her alterego, because these blocks probably hardened her superego. Repressed emotions as anger, biterness, desire and lust are constantly in our minds, they just dont express always. Once her altergo is unleashed, she loses control totally. At some point, Jean hardly expresses herself, the Phoenix takes control. I can recall only two times when Jean actually speaks for herself. And in one of them she doesnt even remember anything that happened.


Quote:
Well then maybe you certainly got what you wanted.
ntcrawler, i think you are a great guy, but, seriously, arent you taking your hate for X3 a little too far?



Quote:
(well if it was never showed or filmed, then it never happened, right? Maybe there was a sequence that shows Xavier pulling a gun from his desk and shooting a student for talking in class, but we did not get that either )
you're right.


Last edited by flavio_lebeau; 08-24-2006 at 10:19 AM.
flavio_lebeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:34 AM   #119
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by flavio_lebeau
Sorry, but i think that when he mentioned his "sessions" with the Phoenix, what do you think he did? I took it as a kind of psycanalist appointment between him and Jean to try to slowly get her back to normal. Maybe he just couldnt. We also dont know if he didnt try other ways. Maybe he tried to develop Jean, but she couldnt be controlled, maybe she was causing harm as an extreme mutant.
I seriously doubt that, because even taking X3 into consideration, we see that Jean is indeed powerful, yet she is not dangerous. Potentially dangerous, yes. But not dangerous by virtue of her actions. Not anymore dangerous than someone who has a black belt in karate or someone who owns firearms. The potential is there, but final judgement is by actions. She demonstrates excellent finesse in lifting up the cars without destroying them or tearing them apart. There is no sign of devastation or a reign of terror in their neighborhood either. Houses are not knocked off their foundation or destroyed, no broken windows, neighbors moving out in a panic, etc. Her parents are concerned about Jean's condition, yet they are not panicky or terrified either and don't see their daughter as some sort of monster who is out of control. Therefore, I don't see any credible evidence that Jean could not be controlled or that she was causing any sort of harm to others except for stress to her parents. In fact, except for her slightly snooty attitude towards Charles and Erik, she seemed to be doing a pretty good job of controlling herself. Had there been more footage to show she was having problems with her telepathy and being tormented by all the voices she thought she was hearing in her head, I could understand that. That's at least how other authors have portrayed Jean at this stage in her life, but in the movie we do not see any of this.

Quote:
Maybe it was the only way he saw, and he thought he could free her slowly, but he couldnt.
Again, remember the dialogue in X1 between Jean and Logan: "He's teaching me to develop my powers"

Which strongly suggests that Jean's powers are weak and Xavier is teaching her how to make them stronger. She did not say "he's teaching me to control my powers", or "he's holding back my powers for safety reasons" or "he's holding me back" or "he's restricting my powers", or anything remotely related to suggest that Xavier is holding or restricting Jean's powers, or exercising some sort of control over her that would prevent her from being stronger or more powerful. That to me is one of the key scenes that helps define the nature of Jean's powers, and how she fits into the overall scheme of things.
if Jean had known she could be alot more powerful, or was once more powerful, or that she was being held back or restricted in any way, she would have said so, yet she didn't.

Quote:
Maybe he made a mistake, but we dont know and we cant assume it was not wise. The circumstances of the situation are not explained in the movie. She might have killed people, making him go and block her powers...
I knoww, full of "maybes", but the movie doesnt show Jean's entire life, so we cant know.
I seriously doubt there was anything that dark. Jean was portrayed as being a bit of a geeky scientist and doctor, as well as compassionate and gentle. And as I said before, even if you consider X3, as a child she was shown as having formidable powers, but there was nothing to indicate that she used her powers in a destructive fashion, certainly not to have killed anybody, otherwise she wouldn't be living at home with her parents and her parents would not be as calm and understanding about her as they were.

Quote:
I think the "sessions" were something to try and revert that situation.
They could be training sessions to teach her to better wield her powers and develop them, like she explained to Logan in X1.

Quote:
ntcrawler, i think you are a great guy, but, seriously, arent you taking your hate for X3 a little too far?
Yes, I do hate the movie, and yes it is for reasons like that. I'm just pointing out if you wanted to see a darker and more sinister Xavier, that's exactly what you got.

Unfortunately, that sudden change did not agree with me. It's not so much that Xavier is imperfect and I expected him to be perfect, but that his flaws were unfairly directed towards one of his oldest students and essentially his daughter, and through the course of 20 years we are lead to believe that he did not attempt to correct what was a big mistake, and that it eventually led to the destruction of lives, including his and Jean's. I consider that a needless, preventable tragedy.

Let's just say I have a strong bias and hatred against death, both real and fictional. Especially if it happens under circumstances that are either preventable or pointless. Even more so for the sake of a story, I strongly believe as a writer myself that death should serve a purpose, should have a direct impact on the plot, should make a statement and should not occur in a pointless way for a strong or well established character. In fact, most good authors consider that if they cannot find sufficient justification for killing off a character or setting up believable circumstances, they choose not to do it in the first place. Sometimes, you can have the biggest plot twist and most surprising ending when a character survives when you expected him or her to just perish.

Maybe some people feel it would make for a boring movie, but in a character drama such as X-men which involves people living in a world and under circumstances we can relate to (fighting for what they belieze, overcoming difficult obstacles, etc) I would much rather see an ending where people are able to overcome these challenges and difficulties in life, and do it in a way that helps to portray their true courage and strengths. I would rather see these people survive so they can fight for what they believe in another day instead of looking at gravestones, you know?

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:40 AM   #120
La_She-Beast
Side-Kick
 
La_She-Beast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 1,835
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by flavio_lebeau
OT- If i remember correctly, in here he also says Churchill.
Cool, thanks T'wasn't Tackov

__________________
~Not a fan of Beast, but an admirer :P~
"You know, Maggie? The sooner kids talk, the sooner they talk back. I hope that you never say a word"

"Daddy"

Last edited by La_She-Beast; 08-24-2006 at 10:43 AM.
La_She-Beast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:45 AM   #121
flavio_lebeau
Side-Kick
 
flavio_lebeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 5,298
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntcrawler
I seriously doubt that, because even taking X3 into consideration, we see that Jean is indeed powerful, yet she is not dangerous. Potentially dangerous, yes. But not dangerous by virtue of her actions. Not anymore dangerous than someone who has a black belt in karate or someone who owns firearms. The potential is there, but final judgement is by actions. She demonstrates excellent finesse in lifting up the cars without destroying them or tearing them apart. There is no sign of devastation or a reign of terror in their neighborhood either. Houses are not knocked off their foundation or destroyed, no broken windows, neighbors moving out in a panic, etc. Her parents are concerned about Jean's condition, yet they are not panicky or terrified either and don't see their daughter as some sort of monster who is out of control. Therefore, I don't see any credible evidence that Jean could not be controlled or that she was causing any sort of harm to others except for stress to her parents. In fact, except for her slightly snooty attitude towards Charles and Erik, she seemed to be doing a pretty good job of controlling herself. Had there been more footage to show she was having problems with her telepathy and being tormented by all the voices she thought she was hearing in her head, I could understand that. That's at least how other authors have portrayed Jean at this stage in her life, but in the movie we do not see any of this.



Again, remember the dialogue in X1 between Jean and Logan: "He's teaching me to develop my powers"

Which strongly suggests that Jean's powers are weak and Xavier is teaching her how to make them stronger. She did not say "he's teaching me to control my powers", or "he's holding back my powers for safety reasons" or "he's holding me back" or "he's restricting my powers", or anything remotely related to suggest that Xavier is holding or restricting Jean's powers, or exercising some sort of control over her that would prevent her from being stronger or more powerful. That to me is one of the key scenes that helps define the nature of Jean's powers, and how she fits into the overall scheme of things.
if Jean had known she could be alot more powerful, or was once more powerful, or that she was being held back or restricted in any way, she would have said so, yet she didn't.



I seriously doubt there was anything that dark. Jean was portrayed as being a bit of a geeky scientist and doctor, as well as compassionate and gentle. And as I said before, even if you consider X3, as a child she was shown as having formidable powers, but there was nothing to indicate that she used her powers in a destructive fashion, certainly not to have killed anybody, otherwise she wouldn't be living at home with her parents and her parents would not be as calm and understanding about her as they were.



They could be training sessions to teach her to better wield her powers and develop them, like she explained to Logan in X1.



Yes, I do hate the movie, and yes it is for reasons like that. I'm just pointing out if you wanted to see a darker and more sinister Xavier, that's exactly what you got.

Unfortunately, that sudden change did not agree with me. It's not so much that Xavier is imperfect and I expected him to be perfect, but that his flaws were unfairly directed towards one of his oldest students and essentially his daughter, and through the course of 20 years we are lead to believe that he did not attempt to correct what was a big mistake, and that it eventually led to the destruction of lives, including his and Jean's. I consider that a needless, preventable tragedy.

Let's just say I have a strong bias and hatred against death, both real and fictional. Especially if it happens under circumstances that are either preventable or pointless. Even more so for the sake of a story, I strongly believe as a writer myself that death should serve a purpose, should have a direct impact on the plot, should make a statement and should not occur in a pointless way for a strong or well established character. In fact, most good authors consider that if they cannot find sufficient justification for killing off a character or setting up believable circumstances, they choose not to do it in the first place. Sometimes, you can have the biggest plot twist and most surprising ending when a character survives when you expected him or her to just perish.

Maybe some people feel it would make for a boring movie, but in a character drama such as X-men which involves people living in a world and under circumstances we can relate to (fighting for what they belieze, overcoming difficult obstacles, etc) I would much rather see an ending where people are able to overcome these challenges and difficulties in life, and do it in a way that helps to portray their true courage and strengths. I would rather see these people survive so they can fight for what they believe in another day instead of looking at gravestones, you know?
though i disagree with some points, i wont reply to them. I think you showed pretty well why you dislike the movie...
while i dont think its the best thing ever released, i do think it is a good story and gives continuity, especially to Jean. Most of my favorite charcters were sliced and diced, but if there is one thing i liked, it was Jean and Xavier. I see we wont get to change each other's opinions, so no reason to this debate.

flavio_lebeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:46 AM   #122
Cyrusbales
Side-Kick
 
Cyrusbales's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: England
Posts: 11,124
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

On a more technical note, the film failed because:

Some special effects were not so special. For example:

1) When Magneto flips the truck over his head, it looks very artificial and basically poor.

2) When Jean grey is flying at the end, the wirework is very obviously wires! It's not up to the standard of superman wirework etc, or even blade's wirework.

Also locations were bland:

1) The woods were very repititous and seemed a very bleak and bland setting, this lesson should have been learned from Elektra.

2) Jean grey's house was far to understated for the action that takes place, which I understand is symbolism for small people making differences, and how Jean came from something small to become the phoenix, but it didn't work.

Acting:

1) Callisto was dire, one of the worst performances of the year.

2) Generally, the lines were delivered very flat and emotionless.

Writing:

1) Jugganaught: 'I need a pee', how is that the words of a killing machine who is unstoppable?

2) Each line was very predictable, you could finish off all the sentences and replies as they were simplistically written.


All these criticisms are not anything to do with fanboy or loyalist, these are just general film critique of a film, that massively underachieved for me. I am a film fan first, then a comic book fan second.

Cyrusbales is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:53 AM   #123
flavio_lebeau
Side-Kick
 
flavio_lebeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 5,298
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrusbales
On a more technical note, the film failed because:

Some special effects were not so special. For example:

1) When Magneto flips the truck over his head, it looks very artificial and basically poor.

2) When Jean grey is flying at the end, the wirework is very obviously wires! It's not up to the standard of superman wirework etc, or even blade's wirework.

Also locations were bland:

1) The woods were very repititous and seemed a very bleak and bland setting, this lesson should have been learned from Elektra.

2) Jean grey's house was far to understated for the action that takes place, which I understand is symbolism for small people making differences, and how Jean came from something small to become the phoenix, but it didn't work.

Acting:

1) Callisto was dire, one of the worst performances of the year.

2) Generally, the lines were delivered very flat and emotionless.

Writing:

1) Jugganaught: 'I need a pee', how is that the words of a killing machine who is unstoppable?

2) Each line was very predictable, you could finish off all the sentences and replies as they were simplistically written.


All these criticisms are not anything to do with fanboy or loyalist, these are just general film critique of a film, that massively underachieved for me. I am a film fan first, then a comic book fan second.
indeed good points. I only disagree with jean's house and Mags lifting the truck.

The effects were not so special in this movie. X2 had the best of them imo, though the entire trilogy isnt a masterpiece when it comes to effects.
And dialogue could really be better.

flavio_lebeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:57 AM   #124
ntcrawler
Side-Kick
 
ntcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the near future
Posts: 2,557
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by flavio_lebeau
while i dont think its the best thing ever released, i do think it is a good story and gives continuity, especially to Jean. Most of my favorite charcters were sliced and diced, but if there is one thing i liked, it was Jean and Xavier. I see we wont get to change each other's opinions, so no reason to this debate.
And I don't consider it the worst movie ever released, just the worst of the 3 X-men movies so far (hopefully the next ones will be better).

But Flavio, overall I'm looking at the human factor here. Like Xavier, I prefer to choose the lesser of two evils, and when that involves human life, I would rather see a person live, then let them die.

__________________
He'd never believed in life after death until Jean had died, and he still wasn't sure what he believed, but he believed in something. Maybe he just believed in her.

Jean: Mom says the only way I can cook is over a bunsen burner.
ntcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 11:02 AM   #125
Cyrusbales
Side-Kick
 
Cyrusbales's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: England
Posts: 11,124
Default Re: Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Quote:
Originally Posted by flavio_lebeau
indeed good points. I only disagree with jean's house and Mags lifting the truck.

The effects were not so special in this movie. X2 had the best of them imo, though the entire trilogy isnt a masterpiece when it comes to effects.
And dialogue could really be better.
Well, a better version of the truck effect was achieved in Hellboy(which is superior to all X-men movies, sublimely written!), so I'm comparing it to something better.

Cyrusbales is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:06 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.