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Old 03-31-2007, 01:31 PM   #51
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Default Re: What to do with Richard ?

How about we just ignore him like he never happened!

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Old 03-31-2007, 03:00 PM   #52
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Default Re: What to do with Richard ?

I like your thinking.

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Old 03-31-2007, 03:20 PM   #53
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Default Re: What to do with Richard ?

you want to ignore him because he doesnt fit in the superman universe of becaue you dont like him as a character?

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Old 03-31-2007, 04:34 PM   #54
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Richard is such a likeable character. Many probably feel that Lois should remain with him. I admire his character. When he realized the danger his family was in, he immediately came to their rescue risking his own life. I saw something in his character that could not be denied. He was Superman with out powers. And once they left Lois persuaded him to go back and save the man she once had a relationship with. And he did. What can you not like about the guy and how can you not root for him to have the girl. He deserves her and she deserves him. I cant imagine a cop out by killing him or turning him into some evil pawn. It almost begs the question,Where does Superman fit into the equation. Isnt he suppose to be the only hero?Was he the one we rooted for? For the first time I find myself for with the other guy. He should be the husband as well as the father.

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Old 03-31-2007, 04:39 PM   #55
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How about we just ignore him like he never happened!
How much more can we truly ignore?

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Old 03-31-2007, 04:40 PM   #56
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Just because Richard risked his life to save Lois and Jason...we should ignore the fact Superman almost sacrificed his life to save the entire planet? C'mon.

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Old 03-31-2007, 04:46 PM   #57
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I don't see Richard as the real hero in Returns, he couldn't have saved his family without Superman. I think he is an exceptional father figure to Jason.
He may not have rescued them without the assistance of Superman and probably would have very well perished but you certainly have to admire the sincerity of his attempt and nearly losing his own life in the process. Another thing that bothers me is how Superman could have neglected these crystals in the first place when he knew he would be gone an extended amount of time from earth. He deserves some of the blame.

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Old 03-31-2007, 04:48 PM   #58
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Default Re: What to do with Richard ?

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If it was just a romantic drama with original characters that might be interesting but for me keeping any Lois/Supes-Clark romance apart and making another character the true hero of the piece is bad idea.
I don't want to keep the Lois-Superman romance apart or having him as the true hero. I want to make things difficult for Lois and Superman and having Richard so the people can ask themsleves what is heroism and bravery actually about? Having superpowers and being invulnerable or just go to the battle in spite you don't know if you're going to make it.

Richard could be a strong questioning about the essence of Superman character as hero and icon of bravery. Strategically it could be better to keep those questions hidden so we can keep extolling Superman forever, but I'm not afraid to investigate the truth and make people to ask themselves certain things. Now of course, the idea would be to show that Superman is a hero in spite he's invulnerable.

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Richard is such a likeable character. Many probably feel that Lois should remain with him. I admire his character. When he realized the danger his family was in, he immediately came to their rescue risking his own life. I saw something in his character that could not be denied. He was Superman with out powers. And once they left Lois persuaded him to go back and save the man she once had a relationship with. And he did. What can you not like about the guy and how can you not root for him to have the girl. He deserves her and she deserves him. I cant imagine a cop out by killing him or turning him into some evil pawn. It almost begs the question,Where does Superman fit into the equation. Isnt he suppose to be the only hero?Was he the one we rooted for? For the first time I find myself for with the other guy. He should be the husband as well as the father.
Very interesting questions indeed. I don't remember another character that raises questions about how Superman fits into the hero role anymore.

I'd say Richard deserves Lois but Lois doesn't deserves him. She's too much of a shallow girl more worried about superpowers and fancy tights than of what a real man is. And for a real man I'm refering not only to Richard but Kal-El/Clark Kent, the persona behind Supeman.

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Old 03-31-2007, 04:50 PM   #59
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With Lex in Prison, who else would possess the knowledge to access the FOS?

Superman didnt consider Lex would get out, thats why he was stunned when Jimmy revealed Lex got pardonned.

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Old 03-31-2007, 04:57 PM   #60
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Just because Richard risked his life to save Lois and Jason...we should ignore the fact Superman almost sacrificed his life to save the entire planet? C'mon.
I should certainly hope so....given he left these crystals behind to begin with. He sacrificed his life to save the planet is something you always expect from Superman. He has the super powers to do it. I dont knock Superman for making a sacrifice but Richard made one for his family as well.

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Old 03-31-2007, 05:07 PM   #61
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With Lex in Prison, who else would possess the knowledge to access the FOS?

Superman didnt consider Lex would get out, thats why he was stunned when Jimmy revealed Lex got pardonned.
Lex being the criminal genius he is, you cant take him for granted. Superman should have taken precaution regardless. He was leaving the earth and he should have protected these crystals at all costs. He knows the technology they possess. No excuse. Anyone could have stumbled upon the fortress. In the prequel comics it is stated at some point Lex made the trip to the fortress. Superman knew he would be gone a long time and should have been more responsible.

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Old 03-31-2007, 05:15 PM   #62
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Default Re: What to do with Richard ?

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I don't want to keep the Lois-Superman romance apart or having him as the true hero. I want to make things difficult for Lois and Superman and having Richard so the people can ask themsleves what is heroism and bravery actually about? Having superpowers and being invulnerable or just go to the battle in spite you don't know if you're going to make it.

Richard could be a strong questioning about the essence of Superman character as hero and icon of bravery. Strategically it could be better to keep those questions hidden so we can keep extolling Superman forever, but I'm not afraid to investigate the truth and make people to ask themselves certain things. Now of course, the idea would be to show that Superman is a hero in spite he's invulnerable.
To me that's a story for a 9/11 drama not a Superman movie,if you showcase human bravery with true consequences then Richard will always be the character the audience loves and roots for and any attempt to have Lois interact with Clark/Supes on a romantic level immediately makes them both out as jerks for betraying this great heroic guy.

For the essence of the Superman love story Richard has to somehow become less righteous and likable and empathetic IMO

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Old 03-31-2007, 05:17 PM   #63
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As long as Singer is involved he will be the only one helping Mike and Dan as he did in Returns. He has a story credit but not a writing credit. If WB forces their hands and brings in a consultant Singer most likely won't be a happy camper.
I find that pretty dissapointing



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I think Lois has continually treated Clark like a 2nd hand citizen during the run of the Donner movies, up until she found out that Clark and Superman were in fact the same person.
Yeah but it would be nice to move away from that characterization IMO
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I don't see Richard as the real hero in Returns, he couldn't have saved his family without Superman. I think he is an exceptional father figure to Jason.
He tried with no safety net and went back to save Superman even though it risked his own life,i'd say he was the hero.

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Old 03-31-2007, 05:29 PM   #64
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Lex being the criminal genius he is, you cant take him for granted. Superman should have taken precaution regardless. He was leaving the earth and he should have protected these crystals at all costs. He knows the technology they possess. No excuse. Anyone could have stumbled upon the fortress. In the prequel comics it is stated at some point Lex made the trip to the fortress. Superman knew he would be gone a long time and should have been more responsible.
The fortress in the SR version is pretty well hidden and only Lex knows how to use the crystals and access the FOS.

Lex was really the only one on the planet that could have taken advantage of this situation.

The interesting thing is Lex did all of this after Superman had already crashlanded back on Earth, so Superman's 5 yr absense and the FOS being unprotected really made no difference.

Lex could have just as easily stolen the crystals from the FOS while Supes is sleeping in Metropolis.

TAS and the comics just solved this problem with FOS robots but I dont see that working well here.

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Old 03-31-2007, 05:37 PM   #65
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Default Re: What to do with Richard ?

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you want to ignore him because he doesnt fit in the superman universe of becaue you dont like him as a character?
Well, since you asked. I don't like the character, I think that the Donner/Superman universe should be and should have remained disconnected. I don't like Superman Returns at all, I think that so much more could be done with the Superman characters, not to mention the characters in the Superman universe. And if I had my way, we would either get a origin reboot or we wouldn't see Superman on the big screen for some time, because I don't want to see a continuation of Superman Returns, I want the potential of the Superman character to be, once and for all, to be realized.

I can't get over how much Bryan Singer has hurt Superman as a brand and as a character.

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Old 03-31-2007, 05:58 PM   #66
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Very interesting questions indeed. I don't remember another character that raises questions about how Superman fits into the hero role anymore.

I'd say Richard deserves Lois but Lois doesn't deserves him. She's too much of a shallow girl more worried about superpowers and fancy tights than of what a real man is. And for a real man I'm refering not only to Richard but Kal-El/Clark Kent, the persona behind Supeman.
Yes.... She is certainly a bit shallow and probably doesnt deserve a great man like Richard. But Richard seems like a happy man with Lois and Jason and it certainly makes him whole and complete. When he realizes the danger only one thing immediately comes to mind and thats saving them. As if he could not imagine living with out them. You want to feel that for Superman and we should but you tend to think that his opportunity has come and gone. And he made that choice. He probably regrets it but time waits for no man and Richard seems to have taken that role. I dont care much for this Lois, but they have done enough to make me care for Richard and I can relate to him more than Superman.

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Old 03-31-2007, 06:08 PM   #67
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Well, since you asked. I don't like the character, I think that the Donner/Superman universe should be and should have remained disconnected. I don't like Superman Returns at all, I think that so much more could be done with the Superman characters, not to mention the characters in the Superman universe. And if I had my way, we would either get a origin reboot or we wouldn't see Superman on the big screen for some time, because I don't want to see a continuation of Superman Returns, I want the potential of the Superman character to be, once and for all, to be realized.

I can't get over how much Bryan Singer has hurt Superman as a brand and as a character.
I agree venom. And I wish that this whole connection to the old films was not attempted. I hate this whole vague sequel thing it makes me sick. This should have had its own identity in this film. I grew up loving the Donner films and they are regarded as classics. I always felt that SupermanI and II were one complete story and parts of it should not have been discounted. IMO their attempt at an homage has turned into something else. It should have been left alone and continued its own legacy. Superman story could have been retold for the new generation and continued the same basics and elements that have endured for older generations. But no need to complain anymore as we have what we have.

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Old 03-31-2007, 06:11 PM   #68
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Richard was the only character in the film with any depth. Spacey is a good actor but he brought nothing to Luthor. It's pretty obvious that Routh and Bosworth were cast for their looks and not talent. For some reason, Marsden's Richard was the only character in the film that had any true emotions, and any real dimension. He just didn't fit in with the rest of the cardboard cut-out characters. It's pretty sad when Richard is the real hero of a Superman film.

That said, Singer will probably make him turn evil.

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Old 03-31-2007, 06:18 PM   #69
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The fortress in the SR version is pretty well hidden and only Lex knows how to use the crystals and access the FOS.

Lex was really the only one on the planet that could have taken advantage of this situation.

The interesting thing is Lex did all of this after Superman had already crashlanded back on Earth, so Superman's 5 yr absense and the FOS being unprotected really made no difference.

Lex could have just as easily stolen the crystals from the FOS while Supes is sleeping in Metropolis.

TAS and the comics just solved this problem with FOS robots but I dont see that working well here.
You know Justice, I dont even know anymore. I try to relate the first movie and this movie and I still draw blanks. I was never really able to relate to the plot of this film anyways. I still have questions and no answers and somethings I do have answers to still dont make since. The more I make since out of all this the more I find things wrong. I still say that for a man who was making this long trip and not know whether he would be back to earth would have the responsiblity to make better preparations in regards to the cystals and the fortress. Superman should not have taken such a risk. On earth he visits the fortress regularly so I wouldnt think about it much. But leaving like he did and not knowing whether he would be back just sounds careless.

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Old 03-31-2007, 07:27 PM   #70
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You know Justice, I dont even know anymore. I try to relate the first movie and this movie and I still draw blanks. I was never really able to relate to the plot of this film anyways. I still have questions and no answers and somethings I do have answers to still dont make since. The more I make since out of all this the more I find things wrong. I still say that for a man who was making this long trip and not know whether he would be back to earth would have the responsiblity to make better preparations in regards to the cystals and the fortress. Superman should not have taken such a risk. On earth he visits the fortress regularly so I wouldnt think about it much. But leaving like he did and not knowing whether he would be back just sounds careless.
Also, with all the advanced Kryptonian technology, you'd think a bare minimum security system would be in order. With this "vague" sequel we don't know if Superman knows that Lex has been there. But still, it can't be too remote of a location. Clark (without powers) walked to the FOS in Superman 2. But, it's just one of a hundred things that don't make sense in Superman Returns.

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Old 03-31-2007, 07:37 PM   #71
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He tried with no safety net and went back to save Superman even though it risked his own life,i'd say he was the hero.
I don't know how much risk was really involved in saving Superman. Superman risked his life to save Metropolis and the most likely the world. Sure Richard performed some heroic acts admirable of a mere mortal, but ultimately Superman is the hero within the realm of the movie. How many people did he save during the course of the movie?

Of course Richard was an extremely likeable character and I am in your camp on that one, a little to likeable. He is like Mr. America, he treated Lois like a queen, great to his kid, great job, and so on. I think that is what they were going for, but in some people's mind it hurt the portrayal of Superman.

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Old 03-31-2007, 07:39 PM   #72
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He may not have rescued them without the assistance of Superman and probably would have very well perished but you certainly have to admire the sincerity of his attempt and nearly losing his own life in the process. Another thing that bothers me is how Superman could have neglected these crystals in the first place when he knew he would be gone an extended amount of time from earth. He deserves some of the blame.
That is certainly questionable, unless Superman left in some sort of rush, which I don't believe was the case.

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Old 03-31-2007, 07:53 PM   #73
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I don't know how much risk was really involved in saving Superman. Superman risked his life to save Metropolis and the most likely the world. Sure Richard performed some heroic acts admirable of a mere mortal, but ultimately Superman is the hero within the realm of the movie. How many people did he save during the course of the movie?
Oh i'm not saying Supes didn't to some heroing i'm saying that it seemed pretty much eclipsed by the selfless heroics of Richard who could have been killed at any point during the attempts he made to save Lois and Jason as well as when he went back for Superman given that he was going back into the lions den

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Of course Richard was an extremely likeable character and I am in your camp on that one, a little to likeable. He is like Mr. America, he treated Lois like a queen, great to his kid, great job, and so on. I think that is what they were going for, but in some people's mind it hurt the portrayal of Superman
I agree that it made superman seem a more flawed and less appealing character.

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Old 03-31-2007, 07:57 PM   #74
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Also, with all the advanced Kryptonian technology, you'd think a bare minimum security system would be in order. With this "vague" sequel we don't know if Superman knows that Lex has been there. But still, it can't be too remote of a location. Clark (without powers) walked to the FOS in Superman 2. But, it's just one of a hundred things that don't make sense in Superman Returns.
Exactly. I dont care if Lex Luther was in the most maximum guarded prison on earth, in Superman's mind it should have always been taken into consideration that the he was leaving something behind that was the last reminder of his existence and history? And it possessed this vast technology. He may have believed that these scientists discovered some sort of remains but it was still a risky trip.And as we found out there was nothing. There was really no need to leave them at the fortress IMO. Leave nothing behind that could have been discovered while he was gone on this trip. That is being responsible. And if Luther is able to deduce why Superman flies north or whatever reason he discovered this location always consider the fact that others could have as well.

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Old 03-31-2007, 08:02 PM   #75
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Oh i'm not saying Supes didn't to some heroing i'm saying that it seemed pretty much eclipsed by the selfless heroics of Richard who could have been killed at any point during the attempts he made to save Lois and Jason as well as when he went back for Superman given that he was going back into the lions den. I agree that it made superman seem a more flawed and less appealing character.
I guess in regards to the safety of the plane and the passengers, Richard was putting his life in daner as well as his family. I sure hope they figure out how to work Richard out going forward in a sequel.

Good thread by the way.

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