Batman Begins .VS. Mask of the Phantasm

[Superman Prime]

BATMAN BEGINS .VS. MASK OF THE PHANTASM
ESSAYS BY: LordofHypertime

This is a long essay project I am doing. It will take roughly a week to accomplish. In between my essays, feel free to comment.





PART I - Batman Begins Revisited For One Last Analysis.


As I posted before in another category, I recently rewatched Mask of the Phantasm. The results on me after have watched that, at the height of my Batman fanaticism, made me realize several things. These new concepts I am leaning toward now, need talked about. It is time for one last serious discussion on Batman Begins... and why it has become a cliche that needs put back where it belongs.

I want you to ask yourself: Where were Batman Begins' stronger points? Answers such as this might pop up rather instantly: Christian Bale is Bruce Wayne!! Nolan told Batman's origin correctly!! The action scenes were great!!... (sort of) ... We get to see more emotion in Bruce and understand why he becomes Batman!!

That's fair enough; And to all of those points, I do agree to some extent. Now ask yourself the opposite question: Where were Batman Begins' weaker points? If you are a die-hard fan of this film, it might take some soul searching. It might actually take thought to answer this question. To those who can't think of any of BB's weak spots, I'll ask you to look closer. Much closer. I myself have come to realize ... that while BB scarcely has many gaping flaws, it is the dozens of tiny problems that contribute to this movie falling flat on its face.

+ The exhaustive history of Bruce Wayne.

"My name is Bruce Wayne. My alter ego is Batman. However, before I became Batman, many things happened that led up to my choice. My parents were shot, as you might already know by now. On that fateful night, we were just coming out of an opera, because I was too scared to stay. A man named Joe Chill... he shot them. I grew angsty after that, as is natural, and became introverted. My life made a turn for the darker again, when Joe Chill's court appeal ..."

Boring. Isn't it? Dry. Feels like being in school again. Of course it is interesting to see this all played out on the screen. It is interesting. Is it entertaining, though? Some of you will say that 'yes', it was entertaining. For those who take the latter train, ask yourselves now: Would it have been a little more entertaining, if I was able to use my imagination, and draw the points on the map, rather than have everything layed bare in front of me like an unmodest, drunken woman?

If Batman Begins transformed into a woman, I don't think that woman would be wearing any clothes. Honestly. (some of you might enjoy this idea, but alas, it probably wouldn't be a pretty woman. Keep your pants on...)

The truth is, we shouldn't know exactly how Bruce did the things he did. Nothing is left to mystery, really. Even the unanswered questions are questions that the film makes irrelevant. I'll even give an example: Just how far did Bruce travel to get his training? Where were the places he went? --- But following the mentality that Begins gives us, the answers are: It doesn't matter. Ra's Al Ghul trained him, and that is all that counts.

Was this exhaustive history Nolan gave us, just a way for us to connect with the character? Probably that was his (Nolan's) intention; But, to get a movie going along at a great pace that makes us sit at the edge of our seats, and to still maintain a FIBER of mystery to Bruce, it is logical to only show the highlighted moments... and leave the other moments in darkness. How is Katie Holmes giving Bruce a car-ride and long-winded moral lecture contribute to being a historical highlight that we need to know? It isn't. WE COULD SEE FOR OURSELVES HOW DEPRIVED GOTHAM CITY WAS! We don't need some useless-girl-of-a-character telling us straight out: (paraphrased, of course)

"Bruce, Gotham is a very deprived city. Look at all these deprived people, living their deprived lives. Doesn't that make you feel sad and deprived, Bruce?"

All we needed to see was Bruce encountering the gangster, being thrown out by the gangster, and leaving Gotham City to go find where his spirit rested. That would have cut a great amount of time from the movie. But no ... Nolan and his team wants to pull a J.R.R. Tolkien and spoon-feed us every dry, melo-dramatic detail. That's bullcrap writing/directing, and you all know it.


Will write next section of Part I tomorrow.

[Carnotaur3]

Boring. Isn't it? Dry. Feels like being in school again. Of course it is interesting to see this all played out on the screen. It is interesting. Is it entertaining, though? Some of you will say that 'yes', it was entertaining. For those who take the latter train, ask yourselves now: Would it have been a little more entertaining, if I was able to use my imagination, and draw the points on the map, rather than have everything layed bare in front of me like an unmodest, drunken woman?

The whole first hour of Batman Begins was the best part of the movie. Entertaining? You bet. Good drama is!

Was this exhaustive history Nolan gave us, just a way for us to connect with the character? Probably that was his (Nolan's) intention; But, to get a movie going along at a great pace that makes us sit at the edge of our seats, and to still maintain a FIBER of mystery to Bruce, it is logical to only show the highlighted moments... and leave the other moments in darkness. How is Katie Holmes giving Bruce a car-ride and long-winded moral lecture contribute to being a historical highlight that we need to know? It isn't. WE COULD SEE FOR OURSELVES HOW DEPRIVED GOTHAM CITY WAS! We don't need some useless-girl-of-a-character telling us straight out: (paraphrased, of course)

It was not pointless. Rachel's morality lecture only enlightened what Bruce knew but couldn't face: Revenge was not the way to go. Justice was. And the people that helped Chill out should pay the piper as well. Since Bruce loved Rachel, it was only natural that he'd listen to her and make up his mind about what she has said. He realizes the truth. It's a turning point.

All we needed to see was Bruce encountering the gangster, being thrown out by the gangster, and leaving Gotham City to go find where his spirit rested.

No we didn't. We needed to see a change in Bruce. And going from wanting to shoot Chill to being up in the gangster's face skirts the issue about his revenge. Nolan knew what he was doing. The movie is structured very well. I don't recall off the top of my head any scene that scream to be unneccessary.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I find it funny as hell that some say "everything was shown" while you get polar opposite people complaing that "nothing was shown" about his journey.

It's tough to debate with people who feel completely opposite in arguements while still bringing down the movie. I mean, what the ****....

[Eros]

Anyway, i really like Batman Begins, but I like mask of the phantasm way better. for me Phatasm just was more emotional and personal for the batman/bruce Wayne character. It also showed us what could of been for Bruce Wayne, Begins just showed us a set path for Bruce Wayne. In phantasm he thought about never putting on the mask, he wanted to have happiness with andrea when they were younger. But after she left abruptly left, he decided to choose the batman path. Its a defineing moment in Bruce WayneS life, he could of had happiness and love and a family, but fate worked against both him and Adrea. Bruce choose justice, while Andrea choose bitter revenge, and in the end they were left wondering what their lives could of been like together.

[The Joker]

Mask of the Phantasm was better IMO. Not that I didn't like Begins, but MOTP was a much more well rounded Batman movie, with a compelling and tragic love story, great action, and much better villains/bad guys.

[nite-owl]

Begins for me, I never really did like Mask of the phantasm.

[CConn]

I've never really been a big fan MOTP. It's good, don't get me wrong, but at the same time, it doesn't ever seem to have any reason kick to it. I think the constant flashbacks hurt the plot, and the pacing, quite a bit, and the romance, I never really connected to - at least not as much as other people have.

Like I said, it's still very good, but I'd rank it behind BB, B89, and ROTJ.

[El Payaso]

It's Mask of the Phantasm time in the Lordofhypertimity!

Be ready and enjoy!

[Superman Prime]

+ Cliches & Truisms 101.

I really like IMDB.com. That stands for: Internet Movie Database. A great thing about it, is most, if not all official movies ever made, have their own profile page. On those pages are links to quotes from that movie. Here are some quotes in BB that we need to take a look at.

The Scarecrow: There is nothing to fear, but fear itself!

Let us start off with the most cliche words known to the race of mankind. Leave it up to Batman Begins to utter them, too.


My parents always said this to me. When strange noises came from the darkness of my room, and I didn't even have a knife to protect myself, what did I do? I called upon my mother. Incidentally, my mother hardly ever came, and it was my dad who would barge into the room and utter this terrible line: "There's nothing to fear but fear itself!!"

Those aren't words of comfort to a child who thinks he is about to be slashed up by Jason or Freddy. They are useless, really. Worn-down. The fact they had the NERVE to insert this garbage into a live-action, serious, melo-dramatic Batman movie, just really is unacceptable.


Why not at least tweak it? I mean... why not have something to the effect of:


"There is nothing to fear but my almighty wrath!"


Sounds menacing, right? If Scarecrow had said that, I might have actually had a chill run down my spine. Instead of being anxious from that scene though, I was no more scared of Scarecrow than I was of Walt Disney's version of Sleepy Hollow.

Rachel Dawes: Deep down you may still be that same great kid you used to be. But it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you.

No need to ramble on about this one.


All I can say: Rachel would make a great kindergarten teacher.


(When Batman/Bruce said a variant of that dialogue, it sounded a lot more... dark and powerful.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just for the fun of it, let's take a strange quote out of context. Nothing wrong with having a good laugh while nitpicking at a movie, right?

Batman: Blood. Take. Take poison. Blood poison. Poison. Poisonous.

Moving on. Put a straight face on and get serious again.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Carmine Falcone: Ignorance is bliss, my friend. Don't burden yourself with the secrets of scary people.

This is right up there with Scarecrow's unintelligent line of chatter.


The main problem here, is that I expect this sort of thing from the animated universe of the Batman franchise. There is nothing wrong with saying: Hey, this is a cartoon. Children were definitely in mind while this was made, so there are going to be cliches everywhere.


However, Batman Begins wasn't animated. It was a serious attempt at a serious movie about Batman. The whole movie was supposed to be grounded in the gritty subtext of the recent comics. Nolan and David Goyer should be ashamed of themselves! Fans out there might try to claim it is not important, but I say that it has a lot of importance.


Am I supposed to take an even slightly gritty movie seriously, when these two lines are present? :


"There is nothing to fear but fear itself."


"Ignorance is bliss [...]"


That is sheer laziness. While there is great dialogue in this movie, those two lines pretty much render useless any good dialogue. Here are some examples of dialogue that I am actually proud to hear:

Henri Ducard: Well, well? You took my advice about theatricality a bit... literally.

Take this guy... armed robbery, double homicide... has a taste for theatrics, like you... he leaves a calling card.
[Gordon hands Batman a clear plastic evidence bag with a playing card inside it]
Bruce Wayne: [Batman turns the card over to reveal that it's a Joker card] I'll look into it.
Jim Gordon: [Batman turns to leave] I never got to say thank you.
Bruce Wayne: And you'll never have to.

Alfred Pennyworth: Why bats, sir?
Bruce Wayne: Bats frighten me. It's time my enemies share my

Ultimately, I am content with BB dialogue. That's not easy though, when I have to look past such lazy instances of cliches, truisms, and lines that a third-grader wouldn't dare put in a story.


One more essay on Batman Begins, and then I will start with Mask of the Phantasm. The last essay, will be comparing/contrasting. Let me admit ahead of time, MOTP has superior dialogue to BB. And the best part? MOTP is devoid of slap-in-the-face cliches.


Don't even get me started on this:

And why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

[CConn]

That is a fantastic picture of Bale.

[Superman4ever]

Originally Posted by LordofHypertime

[SIZE=2]+ Cliches & Truisms 101.

Blah, blah, blah...


[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]My parents always said this to me. When strange noises came from the darkness of my room, and I didn't even have a knife to protect myself, what did I do?

Wakka, wakka, wakka...

Evey: Are you like a crazy person?

[Superman Prime]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

It's Mask of the Phantasm time in the Lordofhypertimity!

Be ready and enjoy!

Ooooooohhhh yeah.

Originally Posted by CConn

That is a fantastic picture of Bale.

*dances*

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I do think ROTJ was better actually.

I mean, ****.....the flashbacks in that flick was ****ing incredible.

I didn't really like how the movie ended in MOTP...where the main villian....from Batman's rouge gallery, seems to get his due and get killed. Of course, he's never shown dead....so, what do we know. But, still. MOTP was a good flick. I'd say it's waaaaayyyy better than Subzero. But, below Batman Begins and ROTJ.

There are some powerful scenes in MOTP though....I thought that scene where Batman was cornered. I mean, he was in deeper **** than he was in YEAR ONE......seeing him groggy and ****ed up after the canister exploded was crazy.

Although, after that...I have no idea how Batman could even stomach Bullock. I'd probably get Gordon to fire his ass after that b.s.

The scene where he dons the cowl, in the cave and scares the **** out of Alfred.....priceless.

I'd have to check...but, I'm wondering....did Batman ever clear his name? I can't remember if he did.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by LordofHypertime

Why not at least tweak it? I mean... why not have something to the effect of:


"There is nothing to fear but my almighty wrath!"

LMAO, that would be terrible.

[Superman Prime]

Originally Posted by ChrisBaleBatman

I'd have to check...but, I'm wondering....did Batman ever clear his name? I can't remember if he did.

It is only assumed that Batman eventually can/did clear his name, though nothing in the actual movie makes it so.

That is something that helps make the last part even more powerful:

* He lost Andrea, again, this time permanently.

* A few of Gotham's largest crime bosses are dead and gone. (The Joker is up for debate about death. Personally, to me, the Joker did die at the hand of the Phantasm.) There was a deleted scene in the movie where the Joker is shown escaping; but it didn't make it into the final cut, therefore isn't really canon to the movie. So Batman isn't taking the break he know he deserves.

* Most Gotham PD hates him. Many citizens of Gotham believe he is a sadistic criminal.

Yet, what does Batman do?


He stands up tall and proud, and swoops away into the night that he is one with.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by LordofHypertime

The Joker is up for debate about death. Personally, to me, the Joker did die at the hand of the Phantasm.) [/B]

But he was in Batman episodes after Mask of the Phantasm. We see his real death in Return of the Joker when Robin kills him.

[I Am The Knight]

I'll wait for the last "essay" to comment. But I have to say that it is hard to take you seriously, especially with that "I Am Scarecrow, hear me roar, face my wrath" line you thought would have been better. LOL!

EDIT: Kevin Roegele is right, according to TAS continuity, his real death would have to be the one depicted in the flashback sequence in ROTJ.

[Superman Prime]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

But he was in Batman episodes after Mask of the Phantasm. We see his real death in Return of the Joker when Robin kills him.

That's why at an angle, this has to be approached as a stand-alone movie. If we take BTAS into account then yes, the Joker did escape. If we take MOTP as a singular movie about Batman, then there is a strong hint the Joker did die.

My view of things, anyway.

[Superman Prime]

Originally Posted by I Am The Knight

I'll wait for the last "essay" to comment. But I have to say that it is hard to take you seriously, especially with that "I Am Scarecrow, hear me roar, face my wrath" line you thought would have been better. LOL!

EDIT: Kevin Roegele is right, according to TAS continuity, his real death would have to be the one depicted in the flashback sequence in ROTJ.

It was actually a semi-joke. That line was not meant to be taken very seriously.

The point made was that there was a plethora of possible dialogue that would have been better than that cliche line of crap.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by LordofHypertime

It was actually a semi-joke. That line was not meant to be taken very seriously.

The point made was that there was a plethora of possible dialogue that would have been better than that cliche line of crap.

The line had extra relevence because it was literally true; it was fear itself, caused by the fear gas, that was causing all the chaos.

It's not an especially cliche line, I mean, name five other movies you're heard it used. I can't name one. Anyway, regardless, that's one line. All movies had a few clunkers. Phantasm has it's share.

Let's hear your major arguments.

[Crooklyn]

Originally Posted by LordofHypertime

That's why at an angle, this has to be approached as a stand-alone movie. If we take BTAS into account then yes, the Joker did escape. If we take MOTP as a singular movie about Batman, then there is a strong hint the Joker did die.

Don't see why you'd ignore TAS continuity. It's not even like it's a movie that happens to be in the same franchise. It's made by the same people that did the cartoons, and has all the voice actors coming back as well. Obviously it's a continuation.

ROTJ features the death of Joker.

[Superman Prime]

Originally Posted by Crooklyn

Don't see why you'd ignore TAS continuity. It's not even like it's a movie that happens to be in the same franchise. It's made by the same people that did the cartoons, and has all the voice actors coming back as well. Obviously it's a continuation.

ROTJ features the death of Joker.

That is your loss.

MOTP doesn't need BTAS to be great. It is great on its own. There is no arguing against this.

Kevin, I will make my next entry later tonight hopefully.

[Crooklyn]

Originally Posted by LordofHypertime

That is your loss.

Woe is me.

MOTP doesn't need BTAS to be great. It is great on its own. There is no arguing against this.

Thanks for bringing something out of nowhere.

Not once did I mention, nor imply, that MOTP needed anything to be great. It's great in itself. I was simply speaking in terms of continuity, it's obviously part of the BTAS world.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by Crooklyn

Not once did I mention, nor imply, that MOTP needed anything to be great. It's great in itself. I was simply speaking in terms of continuity, it's obviously part of the BTAS world.

Absolutely, but MotP does stand up on it's on. That is, if someone had never seen the animated show, and never did see it, they could still watch MotP and understand it throughly. The Joker's 'death' makes for a dramatically satisfying wrap-up.

On the other hand, I'd argue that almost no-one except very young children would believe the Joker is actually killed off then and there, in a cartoon.

[Buttman]

They're both great films.