Marvel vs. DC: MUA and JLH article help

[Johnny DC]

Note: You may have seen this tread in other forums. Don’t panic, I have permission from Dew. It’s in the Community, Misc. and Multiplatform Games, DC Comic and Marvel Comic forums.

Here’s the deal: I’m a journalism major taking a feature writing class. A story idea I submitted to my teacher involved getting fan reactions to the rivalry between Marvel and DC Comics, extending into their publications, films and most recently video games (with Justice League Heroes and Marvel Ultimate Alliance being released within a week of each other). I would like to get some angles and quotes from Hype members since I don't personally know too many comic fans. All intelligent comments are welcome, though I won’t use all of them in my story.

Here’s the catch: I need to know you’re real name. And I need to know your phone number. It’s my school’s journalism department’s policy that each story turned in for a journalism class needs an addendum listing the names and numbers of all sources used so the teacher can call them and make sure that 1) they exist and 2) that they actually said what I quoted them as saying in the story.

I'm aware that many would be uncomfortable with this, but I can assure you, I'm a professional; I’m an intern/general assignment writer for a major daily Colorado newspaper (though, remember this is for a class, so the article I write won’t be published.). While it's difficult to prove credentials over the Web, I'll try. If you’re someone I want to use in the story, I’ll PM you my work e-mail address. If you need further proof, I have ways to prove I am who I am.

Here’s the topic: DC Comics vs. Marvel Comics and the mediums they compete in. Remember, the timeliness of the story will focus on the release of the rival video games, so if you’ve played Justice League Heroes, make sure to comment on it. I realize that Marvel: Ultimate Alliance won’t be in stores until Wednesday, the same day my story is due. Still make sure to comment on your impressions. My lead will be something like: “Marvel: Ultimate Alliance hits shelves today…rival comic company DC Comics released their version last week,” blah, blah, blah.

Help me Hypesters. You’re my only hope.

[Ben Urich]

Do I have to have any videogame knowledge to participate? Because I haven't played either of those games.

[Johnny DC]

No, feel free to comment on anything related to the rivalry between Marvel and DC.

[Duende Verde]

Good Luck...

TEDDY

[Johnny DC]

I'll get the ball rolling:
Which publisher has better comics right now? What about in the past?
Which has better movies?
Which has better games?

[Ben Urich]

I can't talk about the games, but DC has better comics (now and in the past) and better movies.

To me, Marvel seems to focus more on profit than quality. They hurried to get the movie rights to all their characters licensed out to the highest bidder, which means that crossover movies can't occur. While it has meant a TON of profits, it has only yielded a few good films (Hulk, X-Men, X2) amongst a field of stinkers (Daredevil, Elektra, X3.)

DC has been more careful with their movies; they learned a huge lesson when Batman & Robin tanked. They listened to the fans and got Christian Bale in Batman's cowl for Batman Begins, easily the best superhero film yet made. They listened to the fans when they wanted a darker Batman movie. And while Superman Returns has disappointed at the box office, DC was sure to get an established director with comic book experience to helm it.

With the comics, both companies tend to use gimmickry to sell their books. The difference is DC's gimmicks work. They've managed to get a weekly 32-page series out on time (to my knowledge there have been no delays on 52.) Marvel can't even get quarterly books out on time. Marvel's recent gimmicks have included bringing back Bucky, turning Gwen Stacy into a whore, and making Iron Man an irresponsible and despicable character. To be fair, DC recently turned Jason Todd into a giant fish monster, but the difference there is that change wasn't heavily promoted.

So yes, both companies are highly profit-motivated, but DC shows more respect to their fans and to their characters.

[batnkevlar]

DC has better cartoons... now if a Marvel cartoon was as good as the intro for Marvel Ultimate Alliance, then that's be GREAT...

[Johnny DC]

That's right, I forgot to include television shows. Whoops.

Thanks batnkevlar

[hippie_hunter]

My name is Jesse White from western New York. I'm an eighteen year old college student. If you need any more information, PM me.

Current Comics
At the moment, I think that DC has the quality lead over Marvel with their current comics.

Batman by Grant Morrison, Superman and Aquaman: Sword of Atlantis by Kurt Busiek, Wonder Woman by Allen Heinberg, Green Lantern and Teen Titans by Geoff Johns, Birds of Prey and the All-New Atom by Gail Simone, Justice League of America by Brad Meltzer, Firestorm: The Nuclear Man by Stuart Moore, and Green Lantern Corps by Dave Gibbons are really great ongoing books to read and enjoy. The miniseries Ion by Ron Marz, 52 a weekly comic by DC's top writers, and the soon to be completed Seven Soldiers by Grant Morrison are also must haves.

Marvel has some great books too such as Cable & Deadpool by Fabian Nicieza, the Astonishing X-Men by Joss Whedon of Buffy and Firefly fame, the Uncanny X-Men, Captian America, and Daredevil by Ed Brubaker, the Amazing Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four by J. Michael Strazynski, Iron Man by the Knauf Brothers, and the Incredible Hulk by Greg Pak. The miniseries Civil War by Mark Millar is a good read though it feels very gimmicky and Annihilation by Keith Giffen. My problem with Marvel however is that their events feel too much like gimmicks such as the death of Goliath and Spider-Man revealing his secret identity in Civil War, Scarlet Witch proclaiming "No more mutants!" in House of M/Decimation, and the deathfest known as Avengers: Dissassembled. Books such as New Avengers, Black Panther, the way that Mr. Fantastic and Iron Man are being treated in Civil War, and the entire Ultimate Marvel line make me want to roll my eyes.

DC feels like they are treating their characters with more respect at the moment. However this can change at anytime. Maybe a couple of years down the road, Marvel will be the leader in this category. Maybe they won't. We really can't say that.

Past Comics
You can't say that the past comics of DC or Marvel are better than one another. You have Mark Waid's run on the Fantastic Four and Kingdom Come (with Alex Ross), Frank Miller's the Dark Knight Returns, Marv Wolfman's run on the New Teen Titans and his epic Crisis of Infinite Earths, Bendis' run on Daredevil. Alan Moore's Watchmen and V for Vendetta, Jim Shooters Secret Wars, everything that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created for Marvel (Spider-Man, the X-Men, Iron Man, Hulk, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, Thor, Daredevil and others), Brad Meltzer's Identity Crisis and Geoff Johns' Infinite Crisis. Those are some of the greatest comics in history.

However they have both published complete rubbish. Most of the stuff from the 90's is either decent or garbage in my opinion. Bruce Jones' run on Nightwing, Frank Miller's run on All-Star Batman and Robin: The Boy Wonder (still going on by the way), the Amazing Spider-Man's Sins Past which turned Gwen Stacy into a whore and the Spider-Man crossover the Other were horrible.

Movies
Marvel has made some great movies such as Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2, X-Men and X-2: X-Men United, Daredevil (the Director's Cut, not the original theatrical version), the Punisher, Blade and Blade II. Hulk was good, but it got a bit boring at some parts. Fantastic Four was a fun movie, but it wasn't great like it should be. And we have been getting some real stinkers lately, Elektra, Ultimate Avengers the Movie, Ultimate Avengers 2: Rise of the Panther, and Blade: Trinity have been rather lacking and languishing.

Another problem that Marvel is facing is overstaturating the superhero movie market. At this very moment Sony's Columbia Studios is producing Ghost Rider (due in February 2007), Spider-Man 3 (due May 2007), Luke Cage, and the Gargoyle. 20th Century Fox is producing Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer (due June 2007), Wolverine, Magneto, and Silver Surfer. Universal Studios is producing Namor the Sub-Mariner, Lion's Gate Films is producing the Punisher 2, Paramount Pictures is producing Deathlok, Iron Man (due May 2008), the Incredible Hulk, Captain America, Thor, Ant-Man, Nick Fury, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Dr. Strange, Cloak and Dagger, Shang-Chi, the Power Pack, and the Avengers are being made by Marvel themselves. Black Widow and Iron Fist are bound to be picked up by some studio that is not owned by Time Warner. With Lion's Gate Films, Marvel is producing ten direct-to-video movies which includes Iron Man (due January 2007), Dr. Strange, Teen Avengers, Hulk, and others. If you ask me it's over doing it a bit.

Warner Brothers (which owns DC Comics), has made some real stinkers such as Steel, Catwoman (aka CINO, Catwoman in Name Only), Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, Superman III, Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, Supergirl, Superman: Brainiac Attacks, Teen Titans: Trouble in Tokyo, and Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman, but their film library includes some of the best comic book movies ever such as Superman the Movie, Superman II, Superman Returns, Batman Begins, and the cult-favorite, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. Batman, Batman Returns, Batman/Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, and the Batman vs. Dracula were pretty good.

While there are numerous DC projects in development between Warner Brothers Pictures and New Line Cinema, the only ones that are really going to get made concern the Big Seven (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, and the Martian Manhunter) and some Vertigo properties such as Watchmen. I am really excited for the direct-to-video movies that Warner Home Video is making with DC Comics, Justice League: The New Frontier, Teen Titans: The Judas Contract, and Superman/Doomsday. Hopefully, they learned a thing or two from Marvel on what not to do.

Television
It isn't even up for debate. DC has crushed Marvel in the television department. While there are incredibly cheesy and horrible shows such as the Superfriends, the Batman, Teen Titans, Smallville, and the Legion of Superheroes, there are some instant classics such as Bruce Timm's Batman: The Animated Series (A.K.A. The Adventures of Batman and Robin), Superman: The Animated Series, the New Batman Adventures, Batman Beyond, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited. There are also numerous other shows such as George Reeves' Adventures of Superman, Adam West's Batman, Linda Carter's Wonder Woman, Gerard Christopher's Superboy, Dean Cain's Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, and John Wesley Shipp's the Flash.

Marvel really hasn't done much in the television department. There are several shows during the 60's - 80's based on Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four. And in the 90's we had Spider-Man, X-Men, the Avengers: United They Stand, Iron Man, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man Unlimited, and the Incredible Hulk. Only Spider-Man and X-Men were any good and they couldn't even hold a candle to DC's cartoons. Marvel's more recent entries such as MTV's Spider-Man: The New Animated Series, Blade the Series, and Fantastic Four have met with mixed results.


Video Games
The vast majority of video games based on comic book, television, and movie properties tend to really suck. There hasn't been a single good video game based on a DC property and I have no faith in Superman Returns: The Video Game. You play Superman 64 and Aquaman: Battle for Atlantis and see what I mean.

While a majority of Marvel's games suck, there are a few good ones such as the X-Men Legends series. And Marvel: Ultimate Alliance looks like it is going to be good. A friend and I can't wait to play online in it (I especially can't wait to play as my favorite Marvel character, Deadpool).

As for Justice League Heroes, it looks like a poor man's Marvel: Ultimate Alliance. Way fewer characters, fewer gameplay options, and DC's track record with video games, just hasn't made me excited for this game. Marvel takes the cake in the video game market with as much ease as DC did in the television market

[Dew k. Mosi]

Marvel's current EIC came in at a time when Marvel was floundering, and he did a lot of money making plotlines that were sensationalistic and boosted sales. However, Quesada has lost track of what made Marvel great. Everything now is "Oooh, so shocking" and characters act differently than we as diehard fans who think we know them as people believe they would act. Marvel used to have characters who behaved in relateable ways that we could empathize with. Now, everyone acts for plot-convenience and the people we loved are now complete strangers to us.

In direct oppostion, DC, who had skeletal characters with little or no motivation, took a page from Marvel and gave their heroes and villains flesh and blood. They succumb to sensationalism as well, but their characters act within the perimeters that we expect them to act. Superman is always Superman. He does not act like Batman.

I personally think the competition hurts the two companies. Each is trying so hard to out-shock the other, that the stories are coming out overly complex and hard to care about. The differences is DC seems to give a damn what the fan thinks, whereas Joe Quesada has point blank told us "Well, you'll buy our comics no matter what, you idiot fanboys."

[Johnny DC]

Did Quesada actually say that?!

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Johnny DC

Did Quesada actually say that?!

Not in those exact words but he basically said things like that when Mighty Avengers was announced. And I remember reading a story where he said something similar about Sins Past

[Dew k. Mosi]

He left off the idiot fanboys part

[Johnny DC]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Not in those exact words but he basically said things like that when Mighty Avengers was announced. And I remember reading a story where he said something similar about Sins Past

I'll be honest, I'm behind on my Marvel news (hence one of the reasons for making this thread). Mighty Avengers?

And you wouldn't happen to know where I can find those stories would you?

[Johnny DC]

Originally Posted by Dew k. Mosi

He left off the idiot fanboys part

Ah. Still, that's pretty ridiculous. ...Not that I'm slanting one way or the other in the article.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Johnny DC

I'll be honest, I'm behind on my Marvel news (hence one of the reasons for making this thread). Mighty Avengers?

Mighty Avengers is an Avengers title following Civil War. The team revealed so far consists of Iron Man, the Sentry, Black Widow, Wasp, Ms. Marvel, Ares, and Wonder Man. Quesada said that since New Avengers is the #1 selling comic book, they'll just repeat the same formula by making an unnecessary Avengers book with Bendis writing it.

And you wouldn't happen to know where I can find those stories would you?

Originally Posted by Newsarama

RQ: “motteditor” - As a longtime fan of the Avengers -- and a fairly vocal opponent of Bendis' version of the series -- why should I have any reason to look forward to Mighty Avengers? Obviously New Avengers is selling well, but just as obviously there's a segment of the audience that doesn't like it -- why not launch the new book with someone who's not as polarizing?
JQ: Motteditor, I get it, you don't like Bendis, that's cool, you've made it pretty clear across the 'net that you feel that way. That said, New Avengers under Bendis is arguably the best selling comic in the entire industry. So, while fandom is divided on almost every single thing done by every single publisher, judging by the popularity of New Avengers, they're not really all that divided on this issue. And yes, while we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis and Frank Cho.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFrida...Fridays08.html

Quesada was basically saying "F' you Motteditor, because tons of people are going to buy it anyways!" in much nicer words.

[hippie_hunter]

TEDDY?

[Johnny DC]

More questions:

When do you think the rivalry between Marvel and DC began?
Why do you think it began?
Did it ever die off?

[Johnny DC]

Here's what my comic-book reading friend, Matt, wrote to me in an e-mail. Maybe it'll spark some feedback:

Originally Posted by my friend Matt

I've always been skeptical of the rivalry. I think it's something perpetuated by the real fan boys and no one else. Personally, I think the idea of a rivalry came at an end in the mid-90's with the DC vs. Marvel series and since then it's been more about making money.

Both companies, creatively and financially, have come to similar parallels. Ideas are stolen and re-furbished in both universes without shame and it's no one's fault as writers shift from company to company on a yearly basis.

The money isn't made from the comics anymore. Obviously it is still a big part of the industry, but the merchandising, movies, and cartoons dwarf anything the comics might do. You can have 11 year old children who proudly don a Batman Halloween mask and backpack and have no idea that Batman is actually a comic book character. So, that said, I guess the real rivalry lies in how you can market the actual comic book characters to a real world audience.

As for the summertime blockbuster arcs, there is still a level of competition there. Often times the summer arcs are so full of malarkey and they even lack creativity. The are ideas recycled in order to re-create characters to either make them more reader-friendly (or, in other words, capital-friendly). The Infinite Crisis storyline was fantastic in it's crossover title build, but in the end failed to deliver some sort of finite "impact" development. In my opinion, that's not such a bad thing: you can't totally shift a universe in a seven-issue blockbuster arc. So DC developed 52 so that they could flesh out characters. They avoided the pratfalls of some sci-fi catastrophe infecting a "world" that has become far more secular and easy-to-relate to the readers. With 52, the writers have put the impact of such an event into a human form so as not to scare away the casual reader.

I don't know the numbers off of the top of my head, but assuredly, Civil War has received less acclaim and publicity. It's an idea toyed with the X-Men in it's hay day and the unmasking of such high-profile cash cow characters seems a bit like ruining a good thing. Marvel has always failed to deliver in most of their blockbusters, especially in the last few years, and I feel they rely a bit too much on the re-boot aspect to benefit their numbers.

That said, DC has the upper hand with their comics. They have iconic figures and for years have seemed to dominate the marketing world. Marvel pioneered the "blur the line" heroes with Chris Claremont and Jim Steranko. DC, in my opinion, failed to replicate such a thing until two years ago with the Identity Crisis line.

The real rivalry is in the movies, the merchandising, and the marketing to outside audiences. As long as DC has Superman leading the charge, it will have a sort of mythical edge over the rest of the comic book industry. But honestly, as long as each company is making money and seems to bandy around the same ideas, I struggle to see if the rivalry is what shapes the business and gives either company a competitive edge. I think the creativity has been shutdown, while complacency and playing it safe are coddled. No company gains a fiscal edge unless a movie is released in a certain business quarter. Other than that, the comic book industry remains stagnant.

But hey, it's a necessary evil to keep the medium around.

[Ben Urich]

I'd argue that Civil War has gotten more publicity than Infinite Crisis and 52. Quesada was on the Colbert Report, after all.
But yeah, your friend basically nailed it.

[Johnny DC]

Well, I just turned the article into my teacher. Only one person sent me their info (thanks BrianWilly ), so I had to change the viewpoint of my story from a news feature to a participatory feature, of sorts. Basically, I put myself into it. I was up until 4:15 a.m. writing it.
Thanks to everyone who commented, especially to BrianWilly (again), Dew k. Mosi, hippie_hunter, Ben Urich, XwolverineX, Axid, Souless, Ravensford, and everyone elso who commented. If I could have used something from everyone, I would have.
Here’s the story I turned in, sans BrianWilly’s real name and location. You’ll notice the ending is a little abrupt—it couldn’t exceed three pages double spaced. Be gentle if you find errors; remember I had a late night:

Being a twin, I know a little something about rivalry. My brother Joseph and I will take opposite sides on almost anything just to be different. But of all our petty squabbles, we’re renown among our friends and family for our blind devotion to two separate comic book publishers: Marvel and DC comics.

They have a rivalry too.

Marvel Comics consists of Spider-Man, the X-Men and the Hulk among other characters; its universe of heroes and villains considered more realistic and angst-ridden by critics and fans. DC Comics has the iconic superheroes: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc., who live in a world of imaginary cities such as Metropolis and Gotham. I prefer the latter company, my twin brother Joseph, the former, and our debates can sometimes become as heated as the competition between the two publishers.

Both have vied to be No. 1 in comic book sales since before World War II. Nowadays, the rivalry goes beyond comics, stretching into the film and television industry.

And today, with the release of “Marvel: Ultimate Alliance”, that rivalry branches into a new medium: video games.

“‘Marvel: Ultimate Alliance’ is going to rule all,” my brother teased as he pre-ordered it on-line. He’s basing this off of news and footage from video game Web sites such as ign.com and gamespot.com; also, this happens to be a sequel of sorts to two other video games: “X-Men Legends” and “X-Men Legends II: Rise of Apocalypse.” The X-Men titles were four-player role-playing games featuring everyone’s favorite mutants. “Marvel: Ultimate Alliance” extends into the entire Marvel universe—over 140 characters will appear in the game.

DC Comics came out with their version last Wednesday: “Justice League Heroes,” which has over 10 playable characters, many of which are DC’s most iconic, including the three mentioned earlier and the Flash, Green Lantern and Aquaman.

I managed to pick up my store’s final copy. While I enjoyed it along with other fans, the game’s mediocre response won’t be able to compete with the giant that “Marvel: Ultimate Alliance” is.

BrianWilly, 23, of The Church of Joss has also played “Justice League Heroes.”

“It's not nearly as versatile as the X-Men Legends series and also unfortunately much shorter, but it's about three degrees more enjoyable,” BrianWilly said in an Internet message board discussing the rivalry. “However, I suspect that (“Marvel: Ultimate Alliance”) will probably blow it out of the water. The graphics look really good, the game play looks smoother.”

But as far as comic books go, BrianWilly sides with DC Comics.

“In terms of comics quality, DC has been ahead of the game for quite some years now. In my opinion they focus substantially more on storytelling and characterization, as opposed to Marvel which is focusing purely on shock and glitz.”

In regards to the rivalry, BrianWilly admits it’s essentially a fight over nothing.

“I say that right now DC's got better books, but that could change at any point. The companies swap artists, writers, and editors all the time; as much as the characters may be a draw, those are the people who truly make or break the companies.”

My friend Matt Southard, 23, of Northglenn, Colo., agrees. He’s been reading comics for about 15 years.

“Both companies, creatively and financially, have come to similar parallels. Ideas are stolen and re-furbished in both universes without shame and it's no one's fault as writers shift from company to company on a yearly basis,” Southard said, who also believes that the rivalry is mainly in making profit.

“The money isn't made from the comics anymore,” Southard said. “Obviously it is still a big part of the industry, but the merchandising, movies, and cartoons dwarf anything the comics might do.”

Marvel’s “X-Men: The Last Stand” hit theaters earlier this year and has grossed over $400 million worldwide, according to boxofficemojo.com. Its competition, DC’s summer blockbuster “Superman Returns,” has been trailing, having made just under $400 million so far.

Last year was a different story; “Batman Begins” has made roughly $40 million more than Marvel’s “Fantastic Four.” I’ll usually tend to fall back on that fact in debates with Joseph, along with the fact that DC has a firm grasp on the television market with hit shows like “Smallville” and the former “Justice League Unlimited.”

But argue as much as we like, Southard remains skeptical on the very notion of a rivalry.

“I think it's something perpetuated by the real fan boys and no one else,” Southard said. “But hey, it's a necessary evil to keep the medium around.”

So until “The Dark Knight,” “Batman Begins’” sequel, comes out in the summer of 2008 (to compete with whatever summer blockbuster Marvel shells out on a yearly basis), I imagine I’ll be coming up with plenty of reasons as to why “Justice League Heroes” is better than “Marvel: Ultimate Alliance.”

Oh yeah, and remember: plagiarizing is the devil

[Ben Urich]

Solid, man.