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Old 12-21-2008, 12:05 AM   #1
Daredevil_2003
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Default Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

I didn't see a specific talkback thread for this so apologies if I missed it.

OK, so, I'm way behind on comics, just started catching up after over a year of not reading a single new one. That said, what the hell is going on? Seriously. I read the first arc of Morrison's run on Batman (the one with the ninja bats and Damien blah blah). Enjoyed it. Not much, but at least it wasn't terrible. Kinda the same thing I thought of his first couple issues on X-Men, which ended up being my favorite run on that book, ever.

But, since then (I'm up to 667) now, it's just gotten worse, and worse and worse. The hell is this garbage? It makes zero sense and isn't entertaining so much as infuriating. I thought All-Star was pissing on the character? Pfft, ASB&R is classic stuff compared to this. Now, I read the rumblings about what's going on with RIP and some final last ultimate infinite crisis ******** and...ugh. What the frick!?


Is there even a point in continuing on or should I just write off the current books and stick with old trades, TAS, and TDK for good Batman fixes till some people who aren't on meth take over the reigns?

Seriously, guys, what the frick?

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Old 12-21-2008, 12:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Yeah if you hate it that much so far, it's only gonna get worse. His run's been a big letdown. The last issue of RIP saved that arc from being total garbage, but...yeah.

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Old 12-21-2008, 12:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

I figured as much.

What about Detective Comics? I see Dini is still on board, any hope there?

And what about Batman: Confidential? From what I understand it's like LOTDK and not set in current events, anything decent there or more dung flung at a page and sold for 3 bucks a pop?

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Old 12-21-2008, 12:21 AM   #4
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

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Originally Posted by Daredevil_2003 View Post
I figured as much.

What about Detective Comics? I see Dini is still on board, any hope there?

And what about Batman: Confidential? From what I understand it's like LOTDK and not set in current events, anything decent there or more dung flung at a page and sold for 3 bucks a pop?
Detective Comics has been nothing short of awesome. Check out "Heart of Hush". It was great.

Confidential is hit or miss, really.

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Old 12-21-2008, 02:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

morrisons run has been great stuff.

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Old 12-21-2008, 03:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

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morrisons run has been great stuff.
Oh yah totally...you know...except not.

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Old 12-21-2008, 03:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

It's like you have to read every comic book Morrison has ever read and ever written to comprehend what is going on in Morrison's recent comic work (other than All-star Superman). It's far from enjoyable to read.

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Old 12-21-2008, 05:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

I'll actually go ahead in saying that while I feel the man is not doing the Batmythos a service here, heck he's practically raped my favourite characters the Al Ghuls up the behind with a ten foot metal pole, he is actually a very good writer in places. His JLA run as well as All Star Superman were brilliant in places (bar that one JLA story where everyone underestimates Batman, you can guess who turned out to be the "surpries" hero). I've been very contentful towards him for a while but I sat back recently and realised much as I hate his Batman run, he really is good in many other places. I just don't feel he's doing a good job on Batman, he's bending the characters around his stories instead of vice versa.

So yeah in conclusion, as The Batman brought to my recent attention, the best thing to do when talking about Morrison is not to instantly compare him to Dini, or to call him a crap writer, because he really is good. But I'm still in the camp that RIP's "I am Thomas Wayne" "No you're not!" "You're right! I am the hole in things!" "?" is not up to his usual par.

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Old 12-21-2008, 05:07 AM   #9
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

I like Morrison. I even got a shirt with his face on and.. wait, that's Jim?

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Old 12-21-2008, 07:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Does this thread mean people can actually talk about detective comics in the detective comics thread?

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Old 12-21-2008, 10:14 AM   #11
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motown Marvel View Post
morrisons run has been great stuff.
I agree and I won't even bother explaining why anymore to those that don't get why some of us feel this way, that **** is a waste of my energy.

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Old 12-21-2008, 11:54 AM   #12
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

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I agree and I won't even bother explaining why anymore to those that don't get why some of us feel this way, that **** is a waste of my energy.
because it defies logic. His Bat-stories (other than Arkham Asylum) have been ****

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Old 12-21-2008, 12:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

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because it defies logic. His Bat-stories (other than Arkham Asylum) have been ****
How does it defy logic? I think the elitist dorks that are trying to make it more than what it is are confusing others by trying to read too much into it. Like Morisson wrote "you think it all breaks down into structures, symbolisms and clues". As the Joker said "that's just wikipedia".

Batman finds out he had a son with Talia
Joker gets shot and reinvents himself
We're introduced to Hurt's Batmen
We find out in a possible future Batman's son takes on the mantle and Oracle replaces her father
We're told the Batman of all Nations did in fact exist and are reintroduced to them
We also find out about The Black Glove
The Black Glove tries to psychologically sabotage Batman and they fail
We find out the Black Glove is Batman's "father" in the sense that they are responsible for the death of the Wayne's

And that's were we last leave it and it picks back up with Batman being kidnapped by Darkseid's forces.

How does any of that defy logic? it's all straightforward and thankfully all superheroish. Morisson is writing comics books as comic books and not trying to write them like they were movies and error a lot of Batman writers have made in the 00's.

Wanna know why I like Morisson's run because what he and Dini are both doing on the main books is refreshing for a Batfan such as myself who has been reading since the late 80's and was frustrated with what the bat books became after the awesome Bruce Wayne: Murderer event. Before Infinite Crisis was done the books began to take themselves too seriously under the direction of people like Azzarello and Winnick and tried to go too "dark" to the point that they forgot that Batman is wish fulfilment and they just weren't fun to read anymore. Even Rucka who is usually awesome with Batman lost his way around this time.

Hush
Death and the Maidens
Broken City
As The Crow Flies
Hush Returns
War Drums
War Games
Under the Hood

All of these stories sucked & all of them I bought only through the halfway mark except for Hush which I did complete for some reason but the rest I dropped half way through cause they were poorly written and weren't going anywhere. I felt duped each and every time cause I was promised by editors that things would get better and they just got worse this is why I kept giving the arcs chances.

A big waste of my money and time as a Bat fan that period was. So I gave up on buying the books something I only did once back in the mid 90's with Batman. Until Face the Face and then when Morisson and Dini got on board I gave their runs a shot and liked what I read and so far haven't dropped the books again.

Sorry for this tangent but you left the bait and I took it. In a nutshell Morisson focuses on the superheroic aspects of Batman something that was neglected for a while and that appeals to me. He still goes for the psychological as well but doesn't forget that these are still comic books. He makes them engaging and fun to read again not a chore like what Winnick did.

He made sense of nonsensical stuff like the Batman of Zur En Arhh while complementing the competence of Batman. Basically he has honored the fact that Batman is the best of what we humans could do with his run and I dig that. You could say you don't enjoy his writing but to say it defies logic is insulting to those of us who like this direction. As a Batman fan for 20 years now I'm proud to have BATMAN on my pull list again after that dark period before IC finished. Morisson's stories have me enjoying the title again and this is why I like his run.

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Old 12-21-2008, 02:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Hey, make no mistake I LOVED Morrison's work up till this point. It's just the Batman run so far that has been terrible.

And, Cain, how can you like this, IMO, drivel, yet call Hush, Death and the Maidens, and
Broken City etc ****? To each his own but most of what you said sounds totally ass-backward, to me...Death and The Maidens is a new classic and while the others may be flawed, they're masterpieces next to the current goings on in Grantman.

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Old 12-21-2008, 02:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motown Marvel View Post
morrisons run has been great stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I agree and I won't even bother explaining why anymore to those that don't get why some of us feel this way, that **** is a waste of my energy.
Agreed. I've loved both Morrison and Dini's work on Batman in the last couple of years.

For the record...Hush was overrated but pretty good, liked Under the Hood, hardly remember Broken City and Death and Maidens beyond the main plot points. Everything else I agree with.

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Old 12-21-2008, 03:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Broken City's art was a bit inconsistent, but overall it was great.


Hush was good too.

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Old 12-21-2008, 03:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Morrison has written Batman like someone on some oldschool drugs from the 70s sees reality; scattered, disoriented, and just plain ****ed up. It seemed as though in every arc and in every issue, Morrison started by jumping right into the middle of something, giving us absolutely no explanation of what was going on, and then, after continuously explaining it enough to give us some iota of an idea of what the story's about, he ended with an stunningly abrupt and mediocre ending.

He had pretty cool story ideas, but it was as if he handed them off to be written by a child; so excited about the idea and the end result, he totally and completely overlooks writing a quality and gripping narrative for others to follow.

I understand Morrison is supposed to be out there and off the wall, that's great, that's why I read his work, and so looked forward to him coming onto Batman, but there's a distinct difference between writing great stories that were innovative and ahead of the curve, and just plain writing nonsensical crap. All Star Superman, Arkham Asylum...those were examples of the former, but this Batman run, and this stuff he's doing on Final Crisis? It isn't good, it isn't innovative. It's just confusing. Which almost totally confused and alienated me as a reader.

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Old 12-21-2008, 05:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

Firstly CConn I haven't seen you around the batboards in a long time so nice to see a good poster back around here.

My problems with Broken City lie with characterization everything fell off and it was distracting so it took me out of the story. If this was an Elseworld's I'd appreciate it more but as far as fitting in with canon it never really added up. I love Azzarello and Risso on 100 Bullets but Batman is not 100 Bullets so I couldn't even finish it I was done 3 issues in.

Death and the Maidens firstly we find out Ra's has a daughter that we never even seen any hints towards even before the story. Secondly you're telling me he, Ra's Al Ghul immortal warrior and leader would have no problem with death?

I wouldn't have minded Issa if she was actually interesting. But the new daughter is a written like a lame character, Talia is made a tool and well I couldn't bother with the rest. Coming from Rucka that surprised me cause again I like his Batman work. With Hush well I have issues with Loeb as a comic book writer. He's too hollywood the guy writes comic books for all the wrong reasons but at least he's not afraird to admit it.

He likes to use the rogues more than Batman himself, I really think he doesn't even care about Batman. He seems to do much better with Superman for some reason. Then on top of that he will have all the rogues in one arc even if it doesn't make narrative sense, Hush was the villain we're supposed to follow and he makes him one dimensional. He throws spectacle after spectacle for no real reason. His style is just sloppy.

I'm not much of a Loeb fan so I don't really feel his work Dini did far more with Loeb's own creation than Loeb himself did. I only like Superman For All Seasons, his 00- 01 Superman run with McGuinness and Dark Victory & TLH in that order. But ther rest of his comics work doesn't catch my eye. To each his own but that's why we're Batfans right cause the character is so diverse there is something for everybody out there.

I have to say maybe the fact that I got back into weed has something to do with my enjoying these current Batman books lol. But they don't seem anymore heavy handed or unconventional than any of Morisson's other books. Now I won't say the run has been flawless hell intially I gave up after Batman of All Nations pre-R.I.P. I still find the Joker prose pretentiously written as well.

However months later I went back and bought the rest of what I missed except for the Ras mess which I will never read. After reading everything as a whole the only difference between this and his other Batman stories like Gothic and AA is that now he is using his hypertime concept with Batman. Basically it all counts. We see the tumbler and burtonmobile in the batcave, The Batmen of All Nations exist, Batman did visit "Zur En Arhh", Bat-Mite is real to Batman a manifestation of his actual might, Dr. Simon Hurt ended up being more than a throwaway character, Son of the Demon is back in continuity.

It's not presented with the same details we thought to previously be true it's no different than what Johns is doing with Superman. All Morisson is doing is paying tribute to Batman as a whole making the more non-sensesical and outright silly stuff make sense and reinterpriting in a way that adds to Batman as a character and I find it very entertaining. I mean where else will I see Batman with his own rocket, Batman Vs. Ninja Manbats, Batman bringing down a flying dude with a jet pack with his bare hands and some bat rope, Batman taking off his cowl to instill fear into the eyes of a coward that try to take him down because cowl or no cowl he's ****ing Batman.

To me that's so over the top and great because that's what comic books are all about. Making the unbelievable beliveable. This run reminds me of that TDK quote "Batman has no limits." that's why to me it's been good I alos like the fact that unlike a lot of modern writers Morisson like Dini uses Batman and Robin as Batman & Robin. Not just partners but equals and people who both need each other and realize it. This is something a lot of modern writers neglect.

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Old 12-21-2008, 06:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

cain was absolutely right when he said that batman comics sucked from 03-06...you'd think they'd try to keep some momentum after hush, but they dashed it with hack writing

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Old 12-21-2008, 09:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

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My problems with Broken City lie with characterization everything fell off and it was distracting so it took me out of the story.
The only character they really changed was Croc.

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Old 12-21-2008, 09:13 PM   #21
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Double your posting, double your fun

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Old 12-21-2008, 10:17 PM   #22
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The only character they really changed was Croc.
ha ha ha other characters were out of touch like this guy named Batman. He was the same one who listened to an entire monologue from the commisioner about not crossing the line in the previous arc. Yet he has no problem being a torturing sadistic jerk in Broken City while he spits some stale ass dialogue. It was just too much for me to sit through there is a difference between Batman being a badass and Batman being a psycho. I only enjoy psycho Batman when I enjoy the writing and in this case I didn't considering how uninspiring the writing was. Again it was like trying to turn Batman into 100 Bullets and it just wasn't flowing for me.

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Old 12-21-2008, 10:42 PM   #23
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Bats tortured Scarface who is...made of wood.

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Old 12-22-2008, 03:52 AM   #24
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

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Bats tortured Scarface who is...made of wood.
Puppets are people, too....

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Old 12-22-2008, 04:02 AM   #25
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Default Re: Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

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Firstly CConn I haven't seen you around the batboards in a long time so nice to see a good poster back around here.

My problems with Broken City lie with characterization everything fell off and it was distracting so it took me out of the story. If this was an Elseworld's I'd appreciate it more but as far as fitting in with canon it never really added up. I love Azzarello and Risso on 100 Bullets but Batman is not 100 Bullets so I couldn't even finish it I was done 3 issues in.

Death and the Maidens firstly we find out Ra's has a daughter that we never even seen any hints towards even before the story. Secondly you're telling me he, Ra's Al Ghul immortal warrior and leader would have no problem with death?

I wouldn't have minded Issa if she was actually interesting. But the new daughter is a written like a lame character, Talia is made a tool and well I couldn't bother with the rest. Coming from Rucka that surprised me cause again I like his Batman work. With Hush well I have issues with Loeb as a comic book writer. He's too hollywood the guy writes comic books for all the wrong reasons but at least he's not afraird to admit it.

He likes to use the rogues more than Batman himself, I really think he doesn't even care about Batman. He seems to do much better with Superman for some reason. Then on top of that he will have all the rogues in one arc even if it doesn't make narrative sense, Hush was the villain we're supposed to follow and he makes him one dimensional. He throws spectacle after spectacle for no real reason. His style is just sloppy.

I'm not much of a Loeb fan so I don't really feel his work Dini did far more with Loeb's own creation than Loeb himself did. I only like Superman For All Seasons, his 00- 01 Superman run with McGuinness and Dark Victory & TLH in that order. But ther rest of his comics work doesn't catch my eye. To each his own but that's why we're Batfans right cause the character is so diverse there is something for everybody out there.

I have to say maybe the fact that I got back into weed has something to do with my enjoying these current Batman books lol. But they don't seem anymore heavy handed or unconventional than any of Morisson's other books. Now I won't say the run has been flawless hell intially I gave up after Batman of All Nations pre-R.I.P. I still find the Joker prose pretentiously written as well.

However months later I went back and bought the rest of what I missed except for the Ras mess which I will never read. After reading everything as a whole the only difference between this and his other Batman stories like Gothic and AA is that now he is using his hypertime concept with Batman. Basically it all counts. We see the tumbler and burtonmobile in the batcave, The Batmen of All Nations exist, Batman did visit "Zur En Arhh", Bat-Mite is real to Batman a manifestation of his actual might, Dr. Simon Hurt ended up being more than a throwaway character, Son of the Demon is back in continuity.

It's not presented with the same details we thought to previously be true it's no different than what Johns is doing with Superman. All Morisson is doing is paying tribute to Batman as a whole making the more non-sensesical and outright silly stuff make sense and reinterpriting in a way that adds to Batman as a character and I find it very entertaining. I mean where else will I see Batman with his own rocket, Batman Vs. Ninja Manbats, Batman bringing down a flying dude with a jet pack with his bare hands and some bat rope, Batman taking off his cowl to instill fear into the eyes of a coward that try to take him down because cowl or no cowl he's ****ing Batman.

To me that's so over the top and great because that's what comic books are all about. Making the unbelievable beliveable. This run reminds me of that TDK quote "Batman has no limits." that's why to me it's been good I alos like the fact that unlike a lot of modern writers Morisson like Dini uses Batman and Robin as Batman & Robin. Not just partners but equals and people who both need each other and realize it. This is something a lot of modern writers neglect.
Everything you mentioned about Morrison's run that you liked is a heavy part of why I don't like it. It's pretty obvious you have a different Bat-taste than some so like I said, to each his own. It's just not my, or many others, cup of tea.

I do completely disagree with your take on Maidens, though. I LOVE that story. Best that's been done since Hush (definitely better than Hush). That I've read, that is. I've yet to check some of the other recccomended ones.

I thought the characterization in Broken City was fine. My gripe with it was it dragged a bit. I don't know exactly why but I just wasn't hooked for parts of it.

As for Hush, I can't argue with any of your complaints but I still enjoyed it quite a bit. Probably because it was so big and featured so many characters and things going boom. It was fun.

If Morrison's stuff was like Hush, not art but fun at least, I wouldn't complain but it's just not enjoyable to read. I was scratching my head most of the time and said, "What the frick is this? " out loud several times. Just aint diggin it. Dini has done a much better job with The Batman. At least up till Tec 83-something...I'm still trying to get ahold of the newer issues.

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