SUperman's Origin Donner vs. the comics

[mego joe]

My biggest concern with the Donner Superman films is the way Jor-El is Clark's motivator in becoming Superman. In the comics it is always portrayed as Clark, through a good upbrining and guidance of the Kent's that he decides he must do something with his powers. Donner has Jor-El as the reason for Clark becoming Superman. While Reeve plays the part with concviction that what he is doing is right, and he believes in it, Jor-El's mandated become the artificial conflict for Lois and Superman/ Clark to have a romantic relationship.

What do you think?

[matthooper]

I always thought Donner had Pa Kent die as the motivation, at least equal to Jor-El's guidance. After Jonathon Kent died, he was searching for his place in the world. "All these powers, and I couldn't save him". It was only after that, he went on the path to Superman.

[afan]

Originally Posted by mego joe

My biggest concern with the Donner Superman films is the way Jor-El is Clark's motivator in becoming Superman. In the comics it is always portrayed as Clark, through a good upbrining and guidance of the Kent's that he decides he must do something with his powers. Donner has Jor-El as the reason for Clark becoming Superman. While Reeve plays the part with concviction that what he is doing is right, and he believes in it, Jor-El's mandated become the artificial conflict for Lois and Superman/ Clark to have a romantic relationship.

What do you think?

Even more so on "Smallville".

I too would prefer this, that Superman is a result of the Kent's upbringing and his development in the pastoral setting of Smallville, a setting that is classically considered healthful both physically and emotionally.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by mego joe

My biggest concern with the Donner Superman films is the way Jor-El is Clark's motivator in becoming Superman. In the comics it is always portrayed as Clark, through a good upbrining and guidance of the Kent's that he decides he must do something with his powers. Donner has Jor-El as the reason for Clark becoming Superman. While Reeve plays the part with concviction that what he is doing is right, and he believes in it, Jor-El's mandated become the artificial conflict for Lois and Superman/ Clark to have a romantic relationship.

What do you think?

Very good question.

Look at the larger picture, look at the Christ allegory. God sent his son to earth, and gave him to a humble, good couple to be his parents. He was pure and good from when he was born, but Mary and Joseph taught him humanity.

[mego joe]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

Very good question.

Look at the larger picture, look at the Christ allegory. God sent his son to earth, and gave him to a humble, good couple to be his parents. He was pure and good from when he was born, but Mary and Joseph taught him humanity.

But there was never any doubt that Jesus would be the Christ. If Kal-El was found by the wrong people, he could easily have turned out to be the worst thing to ever happen to the Earth. There is a pre-Crisis imaginary story about him landing on an inhabited Mars which deals with some of these issues, however, the ending supports that eventually he will be good.

I've always thought that the Christ allegory was out of place for Superman. Two Jewish kids aren't going to use a Christ allegory for their hero. If you use the Donner version of the origin, the Christ allegory works better, because Jor-El specifically states his purpose for Kal-El when he sends him to Earth.

I've stated it before in another thread, but I think Siegel and Shuster were more influence by the story of Moses. Of course, once they are found as babies the comparison is over, Moses's story differs greatly from that point on.

Let's not even get started on how Jesus is the Moses of the New Testemant, though.

[matthooper]

Originally Posted by mego joe

I've always thought that the Christ allegory was out of place for Superman. Two Jewish kids aren't going to use a Christ allegory for their hero. If you use the Donner version of the origin, the Christ allegory works better, because Jor-El specifically states his purpose for Kal-El when he sends him to Earth.

Donner is jewish too. I don't think he was thinking about christ too much either.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by matthooper

Donner is jewish too. I don't think he was thinking about christ too much either.

Really? I think Bryan Singer would disagree with you there. Have you not seen Superman or Superman II?

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by mego joe

But there was never any doubt that Jesus would be the Christ. If Kal-El was found by the wrong people, he could easily have turned out to be the worst thing to ever happen to the Earth. There is a pre-Crisis imaginary story about him landing on an inhabited Mars which deals with some of these issues, however, the ending supports that eventually he will be good.

That all depends on which version of Superman you read. In the 70's comics, he was always intended to be Superman, thousands of years before he was even born. In the original 30's comics, there was no mention of the Kents at all.

[lujho]

I simply flat-out hate the quasi-supernatural/religious version of Jor-El who has such a strong and active role in Clark's life from the feature films (And Smallville).

To me Jor-El is a dead scientist. Not a magic holo-ghost with a "life essence" and ability to give Superman's powers back by magic. Not a guy who has a bunch of rules as to how Clark can live his life and what he can and can't do.

Superman is (pulpy, comic-book) science fiction, not Sword and Sorcery/Harry Potter type fantasy. Jor-l was a man of science, he's not Gandalf or Obi-Wan Kenobi.

****ing movies.

[Eros]

I prefer the comics and Superman the animated series origins. Thier simple and to the point, and still make you understand why he becoms a hero. Thiers no destiny no Jesus nonsense,and no dead father telling clark what to do etc.

[Freddy_Krueger]

Originally Posted by matthooper

I don't think he was thinking about christ too much either.

Tom Mankiewicz sure was. He's even said so in interviews.

[mego joe]

Originally Posted by matthooper

I always thought Donner had Pa Kent die as the motivation, at least equal to Jor-El's guidance. After Jonathon Kent died, he was searching for his place in the world. "All these powers, and I couldn't save him". It was only after that, he went on the path to Superman.

I just thought he was confused by his powers and didn't know what to do so he headed out and threw the crystal and then Jor-El's plan was revealed to him.

[mego joe]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

That all depends on which version of Superman you read. In the 70's comics, he was always intended to be Superman, thousands of years before he was even born. In the original 30's comics, there was no mention of the Kents at all.

What story are you talking about in the '70's? His destiny might have been to become Superman, but Jor-El did not send him to Earth for the express purpose of showing humans the way as he is portrayed in Donner's STM. The Superman of the '70's was Superboy as a teenager and became Superboy b/c of his own desire to use his powers for good and through the guidance of his parents, the Kents.

Afraid you're wrong about the Kents. They are in the origin that appears on the first two pages of Superman #1, 1939. I'm not looking at Action #1 right now, but they might be in there too. Then the major origin of Superman from Superman # 53 (I think), 1948, Pa Kent even names him on his deathbed. So, the Kents have been there from the beginning, not sure where you heard otherwise. Why else would he be Clark Kent.

If the Kents are not in the Action #1 appearance, you must remember that the story that appeared in Action #1 was incomplete. It was missing the first 6 pages which were included when reprinted in Superman #1, less than a year later I believe. Action #1 does include a brief origin summary, different from the one that is in Superman #1, I think. I'll have to go grab my reprint and check it out.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by mego joe

What story are you talking about in the '70's? His destiny might have been to become Superman, but Jor-El did not send him to Earth for the express purpose of showing humans the way as he is portrayed in Donner's STM. The Superman of the '70's was Superboy as a teenager and became Superboy b/c of his own desire to use his powers for good and through the guidance of his parents, the Kents.

This is from Superman Through the Ages website:

"Once there was a void, when Chaos held sway, until there were spoken the magic words, 'let there be light!' Some called this event 'Genesis.'" Thus begins the earliest piece of this new origin of Superman, as presented in Superman Annual #10. One piece of primal matter formed in that creation somehow took the shape of a sword. That sword floated through space for eons and later came to be known by the strange symbol on its hilt, in millions of languages, on millions of planets, as the "Sword of Superman." The sword is the stuff of legend, resisting the efforts of all who try to capture it, as if sentient, as if waiting for the one being in the universe who is destined to hold it.

Meanwhile, on a planet in the exact center of the Milky Way Galaxy, a race that is almost as old as the universe takes it upon itself to guard the growth of intelligent life on as many planets as possible, first through a corps of robots assigned to protect a small group of planets (the robots would later become known as Manhunters), later with a galaxy spanning batallion of magic ring wielding warriors. Realizing that even immortals can't last forever, the self-styled "Guardians of the Universe" hope someday to turn their task over completely to these Green Lanterns, if only a warrior of such noble proportions can be found who would be capable of leading them (Superman #257).

In a seemingly unrelated event, a race of gaseous beings called the "Sun Thrivers" created a giant red sun by drawing matter from nearby parts of the galaxy. They intended to use this star as a home for themselves as they travelled around the universe. The fate of their original star is unknown. Presumably it was destroyed in some manner, possibly a manner similar to the ultimate fate of this new sun.

Indeed, this sun proved to be an unstable vehicle. The Sun Thrivers compensated for this unbalance by creating planets to orbit their sun. One of these planets, made of incredibly dense matter, was unstable itself. However, the Sun Thrivers managed to hold it together for 10,000 years, long enough for another race of cosmic beings to get some use out of it (Superman #255).

Soon after the creation of this incredible artifact, two space explorers crash landed separately on its surface. Even though they didn't know of each other's existence, they managed to find each other on its gigantic continents. Unable to rebuild their crafts, the two astronauts are forced to make the best of life on the barren planet, with its wispy atmosphere of crimson gases. Coincidentally, the two astronauts turned out to be a male and female of the same species, one named Kryp, the other, Tonn (Superman #238)

These two stranded astronauts turned a world so unfit for life that early generations had to sleep more than half the day and felt more comfortable crawling than walking, into a bustling super scientific civilized world. The weakest died before they could produce children, but the human species displayed its surprising adaptability and evolved to meet the challenge.

The race's physiology was subtly altered, although the outward appearance changed very little. Muscle tissue became denser. Motor reflexes became sharper. Optic capacities widened. The race began expanding out from the low gravity regions around the equator to the upper latitudes. At least, that's the way Elliot Maggin described it in his 1978 novel Superman: Last Son of Krypton.

Central to the history of this evolving planet was an incredible family called "El." Kings, philosophers, scientists, explorers, musicians, and architects all followed one another with bewildering rapidity. It was almost as if someone was watching this family, guiding them, in order to produce an evolutionary masterpiece, a Superman (The Krypton Chronicles).

That someone, most likely, was the aforementioned Guardians of the Universe. For 10,000 years they had manipulated the descendants of Kryp and Tonn until, in Jor-El and Lara, they had created the genetically perfect couple, the couple who would produce the one who would be heir to the Guardians, who would rule the Green Lantern Corps after their passing, Kal-El, the greatest Green Lantern of them all!

Unfortunately, the planet they had chosen for this experiment was unstable and due to self destruct. A Green Lantern named Tomar-Re was dispatched to preserve the planet until Jor-El could build a space ark and escape to found a new colony. This plan, too, came to disaster, as the space villain, Brainiac, stole Jor-El's completed space ark when he shrunk the city of Kandor and placed it in a bottle. Though he fought valiantly, Tomar-Re was only mortal. He could not save Krypton, and so all perished, except for Kal-El, who was rocketed desperately away into space by his father, determined that at least something from Krypton would live on (see Superman #257).

The rocket bearing Krypton's last son landed in Smallville, Maryland (or was it Kansas?) where, with the intercession of the famous scientist, Albert Einstein, who had been contacted by Jor-El for help, the foundling was adopted by the Kents. (This moving the time of Superboy's adventures from the 1930s to the 1960s.)"

Originally Posted by mego joe

Afraid you're wrong about the Kents. They are in the origin that appears on the first two pages of Superman #1, 1939. I'm not looking at Action #1 right now, but they might be in there too. Then the major origin of Superman from Superman # 53 (I think), 1948, Pa Kent even names him on his deathbed. So, the Kents have been there from the beginning, not sure where you heard otherwise. Why else would he be Clark Kent.

If the Kents are not in the Action #1 appearance, you must remember that the story that appeared in Action #1 was incomplete. It was missing the first 6 pages which were included when reprinted in Superman #1, less than a year later I believe. Action #1 does include a brief origin summary, different from the one that is in Superman #1, I think. I'll have to go grab my reprint and check it out.

I'm sorry, I mean the original Siegel and Schuster newspaper strip from January 16, 1939 (before Superman # 1). "The sleeping babe is rescued from the burning spaceship by a passing motorist, and turned over to an orphan asylum...."

[mego joe]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

This is from Superman Through the Ages website:

"Once there was a void, when Chaos held sway, until there were spoken the magic words, 'let there be light!' Some called this event 'Genesis.'" Thus begins the earliest piece of this new origin of Superman, as presented in Superman Annual #10. One piece of primal matter formed in that creation somehow took the shape of a sword. That sword floated through space for eons and later came to be known by the strange symbol on its hilt, in millions of languages, on millions of planets, as the "Sword of Superman." The sword is the stuff of legend, resisting the efforts of all who try to capture it, as if sentient, as if waiting for the one being in the universe who is destined to hold it.

Meanwhile, on a planet in the exact center of the Milky Way Galaxy, a race that is almost as old as the universe takes it upon itself to guard the growth of intelligent life on as many planets as possible, first through a corps of robots assigned to protect a small group of planets (the robots would later become known as Manhunters), later with a galaxy spanning batallion of magic ring wielding warriors. Realizing that even immortals can't last forever, the self-styled "Guardians of the Universe" hope someday to turn their task over completely to these Green Lanterns, if only a warrior of such noble proportions can be found who would be capable of leading them (Superman #257).

In a seemingly unrelated event, a race of gaseous beings called the "Sun Thrivers" created a giant red sun by drawing matter from nearby parts of the galaxy. They intended to use this star as a home for themselves as they travelled around the universe. The fate of their original star is unknown. Presumably it was destroyed in some manner, possibly a manner similar to the ultimate fate of this new sun.

Indeed, this sun proved to be an unstable vehicle. The Sun Thrivers compensated for this unbalance by creating planets to orbit their sun. One of these planets, made of incredibly dense matter, was unstable itself. However, the Sun Thrivers managed to hold it together for 10,000 years, long enough for another race of cosmic beings to get some use out of it (Superman #255).

Soon after the creation of this incredible artifact, two space explorers crash landed separately on its surface. Even though they didn't know of each other's existence, they managed to find each other on its gigantic continents. Unable to rebuild their crafts, the two astronauts are forced to make the best of life on the barren planet, with its wispy atmosphere of crimson gases. Coincidentally, the two astronauts turned out to be a male and female of the same species, one named Kryp, the other, Tonn (Superman #238)

These two stranded astronauts turned a world so unfit for life that early generations had to sleep more than half the day and felt more comfortable crawling than walking, into a bustling super scientific civilized world. The weakest died before they could produce children, but the human species displayed its surprising adaptability and evolved to meet the challenge.

The race's physiology was subtly altered, although the outward appearance changed very little. Muscle tissue became denser. Motor reflexes became sharper. Optic capacities widened. The race began expanding out from the low gravity regions around the equator to the upper latitudes. At least, that's the way Elliot Maggin described it in his 1978 novel Superman: Last Son of Krypton.

Central to the history of this evolving planet was an incredible family called "El." Kings, philosophers, scientists, explorers, musicians, and architects all followed one another with bewildering rapidity. It was almost as if someone was watching this family, guiding them, in order to produce an evolutionary masterpiece, a Superman (The Krypton Chronicles).

That someone, most likely, was the aforementioned Guardians of the Universe. For 10,000 years they had manipulated the descendants of Kryp and Tonn until, in Jor-El and Lara, they had created the genetically perfect couple, the couple who would produce the one who would be heir to the Guardians, who would rule the Green Lantern Corps after their passing, Kal-El, the greatest Green Lantern of them all!

Unfortunately, the planet they had chosen for this experiment was unstable and due to self destruct. A Green Lantern named Tomar-Re was dispatched to preserve the planet until Jor-El could build a space ark and escape to found a new colony. This plan, too, came to disaster, as the space villain, Brainiac, stole Jor-El's completed space ark when he shrunk the city of Kandor and placed it in a bottle. Though he fought valiantly, Tomar-Re was only mortal. He could not save Krypton, and so all perished, except for Kal-El, who was rocketed desperately away into space by his father, determined that at least something from Krypton would live on (see Superman #257).

The rocket bearing Krypton's last son landed in Smallville, Maryland (or was it Kansas?) where, with the intercession of the famous scientist, Albert Einstein, who had been contacted by Jor-El for help, the foundling was adopted by the Kents. (This moving the time of Superboy's adventures from the 1930s to the 1960s.)"

I've read some of this before, especially the sword part. I see what you mean by him 'always going to become Superman.' My main point about the Christ allegory is that Jor-El upon sending his son to Earth did not know that he would be Superman, or even necessarily a superman, depending upon the version of the origin you read. His motive was solely to save his son's life and whatever else happened was really up to whomever found him

I'm sorry, I mean the original Siegel and Schuster newspaper strip from January 16, 1939 (before Superman # 1). "The sleeping babe is rescued from the burning spaceship by a passing motorist, and turned over to an orphan asylum...."

Ah. I went ahead and got out my reprint of ACtion #1 to check the origin recap there and the Kents are not mentioned, just the same thing you quoted from the newspaper strip.

I wonder why they didn't include the Kents in those two versions of the origin, but did in the supposedley original version that predated the newspaper strip but did not see the light of day until Superman # 1.

[captain_jimbo]

Originally Posted by matthooper

I always thought Donner had Pa Kent die as the motivation, at least equal to Jor-El's guidance. After Jonathon Kent died, he was searching for his place in the world. "All these powers, and I couldn't save him". It was only after that, he went on the path to Superman.

I agree, and for one thing it was Pa Kent who said "You are here for a reason."

...And don't forget he already had the costume with him before he even built the Fortress of Solitude.

[mego joe]

Originally Posted by captain_jimbo

I agree, and for one thing it was Pa Kent who said "You are here for a reason."

Yeah, but he didn't seem to know what that reason was. The Kents in the movie were content to let someone besides them guide him. He leaves to find his way instead of relying on his own judgement in the comics.

I also thought Pa Kent's death was used more as a device to play off against the ending when he uses his powers to bring Lois back to life. Essentially, having all those powers and being able to save her.

...And don't forget he already had the costume with him before he even built the Fortress of Solitude.

The costume or the material? The matierial was sent with him from Krypton. You could argue that the costume was sent from Krypton by Jor-El. How would Clark or Ma know to make the 'S' family crest if it wasn't already made and sent. It seems that the costume and crest are all part of Jor-El's plan, not someting cooked up by Clark or his parents.

[Kevin Roegele]

It's pointless arguing this because the story has been told numerous different ways over the years. Even the writers of the movies, comics and TV shows would disagree about the specifics of Superman's origin. John Byrne would tell you the complete opposite of Richard Donner, who would tell you a different version to the 1940's cartoons, and even they differ from the original comic strips.

[SamuraiSon6]

good topic!

[mego joe]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

It's pointless arguing this because the story has been told numerous different ways over the years. Even the writers of the movies, comics and TV shows would disagree about the specifics of Superman's origin. John Byrne would tell you the complete opposite of Richard Donner, who would tell you a different version to the 1940's cartoons, and even they differ from the original comic strips.

I would agree that a lot of details have changed over the years, I was just pointing out a particular detail that to me is less cosmetic and more substantive in its impact on the character.

If it's not fully Clark's decision, he's not going to maybe be as gung ho about things and he will doubt more, he'll have moments of questioning his desire to be "Superman." Which is essentially what we got in STM and SII. I would say the themes and story play out better in Donner's Cut than Lester's, but they both work b/c of the role Jor-El plays in Clark's raison d'etre for being Superman.

If it's totally Clark's decision based on the guidance from his parents, I think you get a different Superman. He might have doubts about his abilities and if he feels successful in his decision, but you won't have the artificial conflict that is the basis for SII's love angle. It has always bothered me. I think this is where Singer feels like he gets his SUperman from, a somewhat reticent Superhero who is not concinced he wants to be SUperman.

Personally, I prefer Clark choosing his path as opposed to Jor-El choosing it for him.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by mego joe

I would agree that a lot of details have changed over the years, I was just pointing out a particular detail that to me is less cosmetic and more substantive in its impact on the character.

If it's not fully Clark's decision, he's not going to maybe be as gung ho about things and he will doubt more, he'll have moments of questioning his desire to be "Superman." Which is essentially what we got in STM and SII. I would say the themes and story play out better in Donner's Cut than Lester's, but they both work b/c of the role Jor-El plays in Clark's raison d'etre for being Superman.

If it's totally Clark's decision based on the guidance from his parents, I think you get a different Superman. He might have doubts about his abilities and if he feels successful in his decision, but you won't have the artificial conflict that is the basis for SII's love angle. It has always bothered me. I think this is where Singer feels like he gets his SUperman from, a somewhat reticent Superhero who is not concinced he wants to be SUperman.

Personally, I prefer Clark choosing his path as opposed to Jor-El choosing it for him.

Well, it's the Hero Journey. The hero has to be reluctant at first, and he also needs a mentor figure to instruct him. In myth, a parental figure is responsible for guiding the hero through the journey.

What is very intresting is that the producers of Smallville seem to agree with your preference. Whereas in Donner's movies, Jor-El is Clark's guide and father figure, in Smallville Jor-El is a detatched alien voice that Clark doesn't have any real emotional connection with, and it's Jonathan Kent (or it was) who acts as his proper father figure.

[mego joe]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

Well, it's the Hero Journey. The hero has to be reluctant at first, and he also needs a mentor figure to instruct him. In myth, a parental figure is responsible for guiding the hero through the journey.

What is very intresting is that the producers of Smallville seem to agree with your preference. Whereas in Donner's movies, Jor-El is Clark's guide and father figure, in Smallville Jor-El is a detatched alien voice that Clark doesn't have any real emotional connection with, and it's Jonathan Kent (or it was) who acts as his proper father figure.

The comic origins of SUperman though, stray from this and have the decision be Clark's based on his upbringing, the self-made hero who doesn't rely on that guidance.

John Byrne made this point pretty strongly in the last issue of his "Man of Steel" mini-series.

I think he says something like this.

"I now know who those people are (Jor-El and Lara) and where I came from, but ultimately it means nothing. I've been raised as a human American and that's who I am."

[SatEL]

Originally Posted by lujho

I simply flat-out hate the quasi-supernatural/religious version of Jor-El who has such a strong and active role in Clark's life from the feature films (And Smallville).

To me Jor-El is a dead scientist. Not a magic holo-ghost with a "life essence" and ability to give Superman's powers back by magic. Not a guy who has a bunch of rules as to how Clark can live his life and what he can and can't do.

Superman is (pulpy, comic-book) science fiction, not Sword and Sorcery/Harry Potter type fantasy. Jor-l was a man of science, he's not Gandalf or Obi-Wan Kenobi.

****ing movies.

I couldnt agree more i mean in smallville Jorel is bascilly a god, he can bring back the dead to life, he can turn back time, he can give humans superpowers to match clark. These are just some of the things they have him do on smallville.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by mego joe

The comic origins of SUperman though, stray from this and have the decision be Clark's based on his upbringing, the self-made hero who doesn't rely on that guidance.

John Byrne made this point pretty strongly in the last issue of his "Man of Steel" mini-series.

I think he says something like this.

"I now know who those people are (Jor-El and Lara) and where I came from, but ultimately it means nothing. I've been raised as a human American and that's who I am."

But Byrne's Man of Steel is deliberatley written to change (or if you like, contradict) previous versions of Superman, and emphasise Clark as the real person and Supreman as the disguise. In all other versions, Jorl-El is presented as a noble, clever and heroic figure himself, so it only follows his son would be the same.

[SatEL]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

But Byrne's Man of Steel is deliberatley written to change (or if you like, contradict) previous versions of Superman, and emphasise Clark as the real person and Supreman as the disguise. In all other versions, Jorl-El is presented as a noble, clever and heroic figure himself, so it only follows his son would be the same.

I have got a bit of news for you buddy heroism isnt genetic.