The man who laughs: The Joker thread

[hannya]

Originally Posted by PrincessBoss

Hi Hannya. Sorry to be a disappointment, but i'm not Miranda Fox. I'll take it as a compliment, though!

Don't believe you. But you're very welcome.

[raybia]

Originally Posted by PrincessBoss

Hi Hannya. Sorry to be a disappointment, but i'm not Miranda Fox. I'll take it as a compliment, though!

Jamie?

[hannya]

Originally Posted by Agentsands77

I never said the scarring occurred then, I said the bank heist scene may be the heist that Gordon talks about at the end of BEGINS, indicating that they were two separate events.


Suit yourself. There was no cable escape ever shot as part of the bank heist. Just a cable entrance. I think it's quite plausible that another Joker-related heist occurs (one set at night), and Batman intervenes then. There's no indication that Batman intervened in any way, shape, or form at the bank heist... no shots of the Batmobile pulling up, nada.


What common sense?

The most accurate spy reports so far have said stated that the Joker is disfigured by Batman.
This rules out the disfigurement taking place before TDK.
I'm guessing (silly me) that there will only be one heist scene in TDK.
So if the Joker is to be disfigured by a snapped cable, it would make sense for that snapped cable to be in the opening scene.
Bored now. Agree to differ. Peace and hairgrease my friend.

[Mercurius]

Originally Posted by PrincessBoss

So i've joined these forums especially as i am truly excited about the new Joker and cannot fathom the sheer hysterics that i'm witnessing on fan forums like this one.

The Joker looks fantastic. The one image that we've now all seen sets the tone for the whole production. The Joker won't be funny, he will be grotesque and sinister, exactly as he is meant to be. I appreciate that he may look different to his comic book image but those of you who complain about this seem to lack a basic understanding of both the comics medium and film medium. Comics are an expressionist artform and are very rarely anatomically correct, and the Joker is a great example of the method of exaggeration that artists use. Basically, his face has always been a caricature, all extended smile and preposterous teeth and eyebrows, and is literally inhuman. To simply paint a human face white, dye the hair green and paint the lips red - this wouldn't work in film. Was Cesar Romero menacing? No, which is why Burton chose to add something else to the character, to give him more visual impact on the screen in much the same way a comic artist would use exaggerated features and expressions. And now Nolan has done the same and, as far as i'm concerned, done so to great effect. Also, bear in mind that The Dark Knight has to appeal to a much wider audience than those of us in these forums, and i suspect that your average movie-goer would be far more affected by a scarred, hideous monster than a rather camp clown.

Also, i think the Joker's "cut smile" has been planned by both Nolan and DC for a long time. As you know, Grant Morrison recently introduced the scarred cheeks into Batman continuity, and remember that his run on the series is now at least 4 months behind. I read somewhere a while ago that DC and the Nolan production team had met to discuss this and i think the truth of the matter is that the Joker's new look will be everywhere, not just in the film. In much the same way that Marvel sneaked Spider-Man back into his black costume, i think we'll be living with the new Joker for a while.

Sorry for the length of this post but i thought my first one should count!

Well, Cesar Romero wasn't menacing because the show was meant to be silly. If one reads The Killing Joke, the classical Joker look is quite menacing there. And he is not, by any means, inhuman there.

If the Joker is scarred, which seems to be a too obvious way to depict his criminal apettites, and that is because of marketing reasons, they are just wrong.

Plus: it will make him more like Two-Face. Batman enemies should be quite different from one another, and not a bunch of scarred villains.

And more: the Joker is MEANT to be funny sometimes. The thing is that he is someone who can tell humor from horror.

To make it in his face with scars is an obvious and weak depiction, that the many years in which he was the best villain of all time never had to do.

[FlawlessVictory]

Originally Posted by raybia

Jamie?

Whoever she is, her posts are great, very informed and well stated.

[Agentsands77]

Originally Posted by hannya

The most accurate spy reports so far have said stated that the Joker is disfigured by Batman. This rules out the disfigurement taking place before TDK.

I never disagreed with that premise.

Originally Posted by hannya

I'm guessing (silly me) that there will only be one heist scene in TDK.

What if it's not a heist scene that the Joker's escaping from when he's disfigured? What if it's one of the initial murders, after he's threatened a public figure? After all, Miranda merely calls it a crime scene. No need to believe that it's a theft.

[raybia]

Originally Posted by FlawlessVictory

Whoever she is, her posts are great, very informed and well said.

You mean well stated.

[FlawlessVictory]

Originally Posted by raybia

You mean well stated.

Oops, I did. Fixed, thanks.

[hannya]

Originally Posted by Agentsands77

I never disagreed with that premise.


What if it's not a heist scene that the Joker's escaping from when he's disfigured? What if it's one of the initial murders, after he's threatened a public figure? After all, Miranda merely calls it a crime scene. No need to believe that it's a theft.

Well, what clinches it for me is this: we know there has already been a striking scene already shot of two of the Joker's goons arriving at the heist on a wire. This could, granted, be a demonstration of the Joker's modus operandi, and be repeated later. I just doubt it somehow. Helicopter to bank via cable: okay. But balcony of mafioso to street via cable: who would bother? In other words TOO MANY GODAMNED CABLES FOR ONE MOVIE!!!

[raybia]

Originally Posted by FlawlessVictory

Oops, I did. Fixed, thanks.

I was just F'ing with you.

[Agentsands77]

Originally Posted by hannya

In other words TOO MANY GODAMNED CABLES FOR ONE MOVIE!!!

Two cables are too much for one movie? We probably see the first cable for a few seconds and likely wouldn't even see the second cable in use!

Anyway, regardless of how weird that sounds to you, I think there's a more legitimate evidence for my scenario than yours, seeing as none of the reports from the bank heist filming support what you're suggesting.

[FlawlessVictory]

Originally Posted by raybia

I was just F'ing with you.

Doh!

[PrincessBoss]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

Well, Cesar Romero wasn't menacing because the show was meant to be silly. If one reads The Killing Joke, the classical Joker look is quite menacing there. And he is not, by any means, inhuman there.

If the Joker is scarred, which seems to be a too obvious way to depict his criminal apettites, and that is because of marketing reasons, they are just wrong.

Plus: it will make him more like Two-Face. Batman enemies should be quite different from one another, and not a bunch of scarred villains.

And more: the Joker is MEANT to be funny sometimes. The thing is that he is someone who can tell humor from horror.

To make it in his face with scars is an obvious and weak depiction, that the many years in which he was the best villain of all time never had to do.

I take your point about Romero, he was obviously meant to be a fun character. I was merely trying to illustrate that make-up alone has extremely limited impact.

As for The Killing Joke, i actually think that is a perfect example of what i was getting at. Bolland's excellent version of the Joker has impossible features: an elongated chin, angular eyebrows and an inhumanly wide smile. By this i mean that he has facial features and expressions that aren't humanly, physically possible, but are exaggerated by the artist for effect. Take, for instance, the "birth of the Joker" panel, where he has just emerged from the river, head in hands, and has a wild, almost rabid expression on his face. He looks insane, yes, and it works in comics, but no human face can look like that in the real world, and it certainly couldn't work on film today. Modern cinema-goers need something more than a white-faced, red-lipped clown. I really don't think that the simple, "classic" Joker look would work in The Dark Knight, and i love what Nolan's doing.

Wasn't there also a rumour somewhere that we would see the Joker through the Scarecrow's fear gas, and he would appear all brightly dressed and clownish here?

[ghost_x]

That myspace page has got to be a fake,

Mr. Happy's Interests

Music Oh, you know: boy bands, little girl punk rockers with high hopes an' sour mopes who could use a bit o' coachin' from a pro like yours truly.

Television The 6 o'clock news, baby! Hahaha!

Groups: DaKoTa FaNnInG RoCkS My SoCkS OfF

Dakota Fanning?

[hannya]

Originally Posted by Agentsands77

Two cables are too much for one movie?

Two cabley escapey zipwirey absailey scenes in one movie is one cabley escapey zipwirey absailey scene too many in my opinion.
In other words I hate the whole cable idea full stop. It's stupid!!!
If the bank heist scene is a flashback to the Gordon/Batman balcony conversation, and if the Joker is already scarred (by the mob) before TDK begins, I will be a very very happy man. I fear this is not the case. And while I really like the new Joker design, everything I've read so far about the cause of it has looked rubbish.
So: cool design, rubbish origin. We're used to that by now.

[Mike_D202]

Batman 89' lovers:

The Joker's smile was gashed into his face before he was dumped into the tank of acid (the bullet richochet'd off of batman's gauntlets and through Jack's cheeks), then he went to a plastic surgeon.

So quit your bickerin!

[sasquatchs]

We know Joker arrives in a car, and almost certain he escapes in a bus. I can't see Nolan's Batman doing anything during the day either. He's probably committing a series of theatrical robberies. with Batman figuring out which bank Joker will hit next

[Akimych]

I think THIS Joker will be SUPERB!!! YES!!!! NEW CONCEPT!!!! IT WILL A BOMB!

[Nepenthes]

Originally Posted by PrincessBoss

My comments on the Joker being grotesque come straight from 1940 - Batman #1 to be precise. Nolan has publicly declared that he intended to use this first appearance (wasn't this also the first time that the term "Dark Knight was used?) as a basis for his interpretation of the character. There's no real particular charm or humour in his first appearance:

"A smile without mirth... rather, a smile of death! The awesome, ghastly grin of... The Joker!"

"Slowly the facial muscles pull the dead man's mouth into a repellent, ghastly grin. The sign of death from The Joker!"

...and so on.

There are no elaborate jokes, no light relief and certainly no charm. In fact, he seems to laugh only when he's killing someone and the "jokes" are the tricks he plays on Gotham's police. Obviously the character has progressed since then, but it should be noted that the character has also been through many changes. This is simply the nature of comics, of course, but it is particularly true of the Joker as there still has been no definitive origin for the character, and that's just the way we like it. Thus everyone, including the readers, are left free to imagine their own Joker.

Whatever, Nolan wants to use Batman #1 as his source, and i think he has updated the grotesque and ghoulish Joker of 1940 very well indeed.

And hello to everyone, by the way!

No way...

I get what you're saying and I'm not against an unique interpretation per se (especially when it has some basis in comics) but still...this would not be reasonable at all.

Batman#1, so what? It's a classic Joker story and I was very glad when I' heard there'd be some aspects taken from there, but a humorless Joker devoid of whimsy or charm is NOT the Joker as he is, or has been for 60 years despite what you say about change and interpretations etc. Along with Batman#1, TheDarkKnightReturns is the only other Joker of that kind that's ever been done successfully. Anyone reading this can try to think of another portrayal of similar quality.

If Batman starts shooting people with a revolver you can't just fall back on the early Batman comics. Same deal here. The clown aspect is absolutely definitive, even if broadly defined. If he's just another grim and dastardly villain he'll be reduced to one more generic psycho relying on a visual gimmick. Also, as you put, having no origin does not give anyone free reign to imagine the Joker 'anyway we we like it'. What it does do is allow one to interpret 'jokes' anyway they like it.

Maybe you think that funny equals camp, you even said 'light relief'. No way. Humour can be dry, grim, chilling and subdued. Laughter can be soft. And the quotes you mentioned, they're fine, hell they're great, the Joker certainly does need to be balanced with quiet menace. He's not always in a raving euphoria, I actually like that about #1 but just not as a permanent state. Thing is, he can still be damn scary in his traditional mode.

Dont get me wrong I'm not calling for the shallow, overblown Nicholson type antics again, just that the humourless extreme in Batman#1 is definitely not cool either. Sorry to put to many words over your screen. And hey, welcome.

[FlawlessVictory]

Originally Posted by PrincessBoss

Wasn't there also a rumour somewhere that we would see the Joker through the Scarecrow's fear gas, and he would appear all brightly dressed and clownish here?

Yes, you reported...I mean Miranda Fox reported this.

I'm just teasing you.

[FlawlessVictory]

Originally Posted by Mike_D202

Batman 89' lovers:

The Joker's smile was gashed into his face before he was dumped into the tank of acid (the bullet richochet'd off of batman's gauntlets and through Jack's cheeks), then he went to a plastic surgeon.

So quit your bickerin!

Yea, I see what you're saying. But I think a lot of people have a problem with how sloppy Ledger's Joker looks, particularly the lipstick.

[Agentsands77]

Originally Posted by Nepenthes

He's not always in a raving euphoria, I actually like that about #1 but just not as a permanent state. Thing is, he can still be damn scary in his traditional mode.

Agreed. The Joker as a consistently cackling, raving nut isn't as interesting as when he has moods that he shifts in and out of. I'm glad that THE DARK KNIGHT seems to be incorporating a variety of aspects from a variety of Joker portrayals and synthesizing them into a new interpretation.

Originally Posted by Nepenthes

Dont get me wrong I'm not calling for the shallow, overblown Nicholson type antics again, just that the humourless extreme in Batman#1 is definitely not cool either.

Yeah. Humor for the Joker character can be a lot of things, and has been. Judging by the sides and the website (which may or may not be indicative of the Joker persona), then we have a Joker with a dark sense of humor, even from the very beginning: "It's rude to stare." I'll be interested to see how Ledger delivers that, though. I'm imagining a quieter delivery with a wide smile and intense gaze.

But, to be fair to BATMAN #1, that Joker is fine as a starting point for the character... that his madness deepens as things go along. It's been indicated we're going to see something similar to that in THE DARK KNIGHT, and that's fine by me.

This is kind of unrelated, but my favorite moment in BATMAN #1 is when the Joker is disguised as the police chief... and he gets that big grin on his face as he's about to kill the judge. It's really creepy.

[Mike_D202]

[sasquatchs]

I'm not really expecting this Joker to be full of mirth, but to show his humour more in his crimes as much as anything. I'm sure he'll get lots of sarcastic barbs off at Batman's expense, and have a truly sinister sense of humour that you can only appreciate when 100 miles away from the joke. Perhaps you'll almost warm to him, with a constant undercurrent of extreme danger, where he suddenly snaps without warning. A mastermind that uses crime as performance art.

[Crashorama]

There is a poster over at BOF that made a manip of the ledger pic (batmatic)
that has him with a big grin. I have a link but I don't know the rules regarding
all that.