Thunderbolts #111

[Harlekin]

Anyone read this little ditty?

It proved to me that Ellis really doesn't know how to write Swordsman and Songbird. I don't know where Ellis got the idea that Songbird isn't already pardoned, and above all, is doing this for a new identity, rather than, y'know, redemption. It's only been her schtick since a few years after all.

Swordsman just... didn't sound like the Swordsman.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Harlekin

Anyone read this little ditty?

It proved to me that Ellis really doesn't know how to write Swordsman and Songbird. I don't know where Ellis got the idea that Songbird isn't already pardoned, and above all, is doing this for a new identity, rather than, y'know, redemption. It's only been her schtick since a few years after all.

Swordsman just... didn't sound like the Swordsman.

It needs to be said, because people will love Ellis and praise him and its so annoying.

Ellis cannot write established characters.

He just can't. Whenever he does, its just atrocious, just look at the utter raping of every character involved in Nextwave as a prime example.

[Mr. Smash'n Bash]

I love how he took Jack Flag, made him into B-List hero material and then threw him away in the blink of an instance.

[Harlekin]

I can't help but agree 'Phere. Nextwave certainly wasn't my cup of tea either.

The whole Jack Flag thing was ridiculous. He takes down all of the Thunderbolts, but he gets pwned by Bullseye. It was an ownage moment, but felt all wrong.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Harlekin

I can't help but agree 'Phere. Nextwave certainly wasn't my cup of tea either.

The whole Jack Flag thing was ridiculous. He takes down all of the Thunderbolts, but he gets pwned by Bullseye. It was an ownage moment, but felt all wrong.

I mean, this is probably hypocritical in a sense, but if Nextwave was all new characters, I probably wouldve loved it.

My friend showed me the Jack Flag scenes, and wow, really. I mean, Ellis in a single instant showed how much the potential the character had, and how it has been wasted so easily.

[Harlekin]

I probably would've enjoyed it more with new characters as well.

On a happier note: Thunderbolts Presents Zemo: Born Better ****ing rocked.

[Darthphere]

I didnt buy it.

[Foggy Nelson]

Originally Posted by Harlekin

I probably would've enjoyed it more with new characters as well.

On a happier note: Thunderbolts Presents Zemo: Born Better ****ing rocked.

Co-signed, It was bloody good.

[gildea]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

He just can't. Whenever he does, its just atrocious, just look at the utter raping of every character involved in Nextwave as a prime example.

you've missed the point.

[Joker]

yeah, Nextwave was never meant to be taken seriously...at all...I mean for gods sake, if Fin Fang Foom threatening to put Elsa "in his pants" didnt show you that, then I guess it's not even worth it to try and explain...

[deemar325]

I liked NextWave alot. I never took it seriously, it fulfilled a simple need.(A comic that I could pick up at any time and get a relatively full story.) When I was overseas it was the perfect comic for me, no 6 issue arc or slow pacing , it was wham,Bam, in, out just fun ****!

[PhotoJones]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

I mean, this is probably hypocritical in a sense, but if Nextwave was all new characters, I probably wouldve loved it.

My friend showed me the Jack Flag scenes, and wow, really. I mean, Ellis in a single instant showed how much the potential the character had, and how it has been wasted so easily.

i think ellis was kind of using flag to make a statement. like, "here is a piece of **** character. whoa, look what i did, i made you care about him, and i made him cool...aaaand, dead."

almost like he's saying we haven't seen anything yet, and don't expect or assume you know anything.



or he sucks, i'm not sure.

[Caliber]

Originally Posted by photojones2

i think ellis was kind of using flag to make a statement. like, "here is a piece of **** character. whoa, look what i did, i made you care about him, and i made him cool...aaaand, dead."

almost like he's saying we haven't seen anything yet, and don't expect or assume you know anything.



or he sucks, i'm not sure.

Hes a great writer and only starting on Thunderbolts. Give it a chance people.

[PhotoJones]

Originally Posted by Caliber

Hes a great writer and only starting on Thunderbolts. Give it a chance people.

most times he's either a raving mad genius, or what he's writing is complete drivel. sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

[Harlekin]

Originally Posted by gildea

you've missed the point.

Originally Posted by The Joker

yeah, Nextwave was never meant to be taken seriously...at all...I mean for gods sake, if Fin Fang Foom threatening to put Elsa "in his pants" didnt show you that, then I guess it's not even worth it to try and explain...

Oh, we got it, we just didn't think it was funny.

Using established characters ruined it for me because I couldn't see past the huge mischaracterization which was required for the story to work.

[SonOfCthulhu]

This was my last issue. Dropped.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Harlekin

Oh, we got it, we just didn't think it was funny.

Using established characters ruined it for me because I couldn't see past the huge mischaracterization which was required for the story to work.

Exactly. The whole we missed the point thing is just another attempt to excuse his blatant mischaracterization of established characters. And at this stage, the whole out of continuity argument doesn't work either.

[JewishHobbit]

I frankly can't stand Ellis myself. I haven't read this new issue yet, but he has a lot of great characters in this book... I really hope he doesn't ruin them. It makes me think of how he messed up X-Man and X-Force back during the Counter X days. Sad.

[Mr. Green]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smash'n Bash

I love how he took Jack Flag, made him into B-List hero material and then threw him away in the blink of an instance.

I think that if he didn't make us (the readers) care about Jack Flag, and didn't make him the good guy, it would have meant next to nothing when he was finally taken down. And not all writers can do something like that so well.

And how many books like this are there? It's about a superhero team that the readers actually root against. It's made up of bad people who have done bad things, and they are taking down good guys for the SRA (which everyone hates). That is so awesome! It is a lot more interesting (for me, at least) than just another superhero team stopping the bad guys.

Not to mention the art rocked.

Note: It's probably better to me because I am not too familiar with Songbird, Swordsman, etc. so I don't really notice if their OOC or not.

[supermarvelman]

Besides Jack Flag getting paralysed, by biggest complaint is how out of character Swordsman was compared to how he had been before they revamped the Thunderbolts. I'm hoping that somehow what happened to Jack will only make for a big comebock for him. I dont know what they'll do about him being paralysed but I'm sure they can think of something, have Forge help him out or something.

[Red]

My review from the brought/thought thread

Thunderbolts #111

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

This relaunch started well, but I guess it was only a matter of time until Ellis screwed things up. It’s a shame because despite my grievances with the new direction, the New Avengers approach to the roster and the blatant rip of Villains United I really quite enjoyed the first issue.

Its starts well with another “Norman Thunderbolt intro” this time with the team’s former leader and part-time Baron Zemo bed buddy, Songbird. Norman basically demoralizes her reliving her of leadership of the T-bolts and taunting her about sleeping with Zemo and only allowing her to remain on the team because the public knows her and she apparently makes a good action figure. It works because Osborn’s manipulation of Songbird is done so well. Norman takes away everything, from her position to her self-respect, and in he return gives her an offer she has no choice but to accept.

Next we return to the main plot of the Thunderbolts pursuit of F-lister Jack ***, sorry Flag. This is where things get stupid. The teams field leader Moonstone orders Radioactive Man (saddly not the same one from The Simpsons) to blow up the parking lot in which Jack is standing in and then sends Swordsman, Songbird and Scorp-Venom to take Jack down. Now in 5 panels before that you can clearly see that there are both buildings and swarms of camera crew surrounding the parking lot. It’s very easy to argue that during the blast innocent citizens were badly hurt if not killed (later in the book clearly shown widows and parts of the buildings are shown badly damaged). I wouldn’t have been so critical if not for all the “realism” Marvel has been going for recently.

Swordsman and Scorp-Venom meanwhile attemps to take Jack down but Jack hand’s Swordsman his ass in seconds. Scorp-Venom on the other hand after getting stabbed by a half of Swordsman sword freaks out into an uncontrollable rage. A supervillian getting out of control, how novel, bet you never saw that coming. Anyway Scorp-Venom literal Hulks out and attempts to eat Jack. Moonstone has to use that handy little plot-device of the nanites to take Scorp-Venom out leaving only emoboy Penance (Former New Warrior Speedball) and Songbird, the later is quickly dispensed with by Jack with a Captain America tribute move (one of the few highlights). Under orders from Moonstone to try his powers “on” Penance trashes the street some more (remember the Penance picture from a past Joe Fridays) and injure Jack.

Jack then hides out in a warehouse only for Bullseye to appear and stab him in a smaller homage to Elektra’s death (wasn’t that exact same thing in New Avengers #27 only with Elektra in Bullseyes place? If you said yes, go to the front of the class.). It turns out Bullseye has only crippled Jack (Hooya! Go Thunderbolts!). A team then leads Jack’s paralyzed body through the destroyed street and Moonstone addresses the media. This is where the book really fell apart for me. Ellis uses really lame excuses to cover the destruction and the T-Bolts actions “Jack Flag had mined the parking lot…”, “His concealed weaponry extended to a taster that he used on Venom…” and “Jack Flag has inhuman physical resources and managed to keep walking for five minutes until he was overwhelmed by Penances attack…”

The issue finishes off with Swordsman back at T-bolts HQ where he slaps Jack around for breaking his sword (Hooya! Go Thunderbolts!). Then we go back to Norman who is reviewing the destruction caused, which Norman describes in his own words as “…I’m not sure if there’s anything to measure it against”…You mean like Stamford? Norman then receives a list of new targets, one of which is Scarlet Spider. Norman’s brow immediately begins to fill with sweat as he claims he heard “Spider-Man” and he begins to start popping pills.

Ellis just doesn't seem have any idea where he wants to take the series other than the notion of A-list villians beating F-list heroes $%^"less, which is a very thin idea for a relaunch. It irks me because Thunderbolts had a great theme of redemption, which isn't see here at all. In fact T-Bolt regulars Songbird and Swordsman are out of character and seem to be more concerned with their postions in the team and making money.

With any new book/new team I allow 5 issues to win me over. I don’t think I even need 3.

2 out of 5 stars.

[Mr. Green]

Cold...

[supermarvelman]

I wish they would get a different artist, instead od Deodato I really dont like his style.

[Doc Destruction]

It irks me because Thunderbolts had a great theme of redemption, which isn't see here at all.

And this is why I never even bothered to read this POS.

[Mr. Green]

Originally Posted by supermarvelman

I wish they would get a different artist, instead od Deodato I really dont like his style.

It looks better before colors.