After repeated viewings I prefer..

[Buttman]

..B89 to Begins.

I was too one of the those guys that when Begins first came out could barely contain my love of it, and how it had trumped Burton's Batman film hands down in quality. However, after 2 years of repeated viewings (maybe.. 200 viewings?) I've come to the conclusion that B89 is just a better film, with a spirit more true to Batman.

I think this is because, on the surface Begins is a somewhat shallow movie. The first 10 times you see it you think it's fantastic, then it begins to work on you. I've seen B89.. easily 500 times, and I still enjoy it start to finish. B89 has more depth, more lines that are left ambigious ("Are we going to try to love each other? "I'd like too.") while Begins is very straight to the point.



Let's get to the stats -

Keaton vs. Bale

Despite what the comics had been doing for a decade, the public perception of Batman was still Adam West in 1988/9. Keaton changed that. By performing the character in a serious and somber tone, he inspired a wave of Batfans and is still considered "The Definitive Batman" by many people today. Plus, when he was offered 7m for Forever, he rejected the offer refusing to be a sell-out. Go Keaton. Contiuning the tone set by Keaton, Bale changed his voice and his overall performance while portraying Batman to provide a realistic intrepretation of how Bruce Wayne would convince people he and Batman were not one and the same. However, many fans disliked his approach as too over-the-top animal-like, as a detective zen-like character.

Winner = Keaton.


Characterisation

While the characterisation in Batman was more restrained and held-back, like a full fledged psycho should be, it doesn't change the fact Batman was/is a killer in the picture whereas in Begins he does the same, only without all the murderings. Major plus points for Begin's portrayal of the Wayne murders and the impact of Thomas' Wayne's death, as well as the portrayal of Jim Gordon.

Winner = Batman Begins


Batsuit & Batmobile

I don't think there's anyone who prefers the Begins costume or Batmobile to Batman's, so I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this one right out there.

Winner = Batman


Production Design

Begins went with a more realistic approach to everything. Gotham felt like it could very much be a real city. The way his grapple gun worked seemed more practical and the cape gliding had science behind it, no matter how bizzare it was. Batman was the exact opposite, going for complete style. Gotham City felt and looked like hell.

Winner = Batman


Faithfullness to the source material -

This one's a toughie. Because automatically, I think Batman Begins has this one hands down. Batman doesn't kill, his parents are murdered by Joe Chill, he refuses to use guns and can kick ass. But then, I pause, and think about it seriously for a few minutes. I feel Batman's costume in the original is more faithful than Begin's is. I feel the same for the Batmobile. I feel the same for the Batcave. I feel the same for his "wonderful toys." I feel Batman is much scarier than he is in Begins. Vicky Vale. A comic portrayal of Alfred. Gotham City doesn't feel very Hell-like in Begins, it actually doesn't look like such a bad place to live in most of the pans. NOBODY would want to live in Batman's Gotham.

Winner = Draw.

[Rockbottom]

I agree with all those points, i love both of the films but the vibe Keaton sends out as Batman and score in B89 just swing it for me.

[Rockbottom]

Double post :@

[mjbull23]

Things I loved about B89. The Batmobile. I still drool whenever I see that car. Loved the look of Gotham. Keaton's portrayal of Batman was spot on. Nicholson as the Joker. Nearly 20 years later, and everytime I watch this movie it's still visually appealing and enthralling. Burton and Co. did a masterful job.

There are many things about it I preferred over Begins. I'm not quite certain if I am ready to annoint it the greatest Batman Film of all time, Begins was an excellent piece of work. Tough decision. You do make some nice points though.

[Catman]

Originally Posted by Buttman

..B89 to Begins.

Welcome to the other side. Begins is a great movie! Its flaw is that it lacks wonder...you know? Nolan just throws stuff at you! In B89 burton throws some "awe" factors in. Like when we see the batcave for the first time is a great example. You see some monitors and the camera starts to slowly pull back. Everyone in the audience is like, "ooo its the batcave. wow!" In Begins Nolan just throws it at you. "Hey, here's the batcave!"

Begins lacks the awe factor.

[The Joker]

Batman 89 is much more entertaining than Batman Begins, IMO.

[mjbull23]

I think you nailed it on the head Catman. I mean, take for example, the scene in B89, where Bruce is about to go bomb the hell out of Axis Chemicals... you see him open up his Costume Chamber,,,and you hear the slow build up...the crescendo of the musical score as he fastens the bat belt onto his costume...then we see that tight shot of his emblem, and finally the closeup of his face as he looks up into the Batcave and all we see is the light playing off of his eerie eyes... i mean that little 5 second sequence gave me a serious chill factor down my spine...

Begins equivalent is the part when Bruce is about to go eavesdrop on Rachel's visit to Dr. Crane at Arkham, and all we get there is just a quick clip of him opening up his Costume Casket ...which, was fine, but certainly did not convey the same impact that the aforementioned scene does.

Also, I think Danny Elfman's musical score really enhanced B89 incredibly. If you really pay attention to it during the movie, you begin to develop an appreciation for how effectively it helps lather up the mood in every scene of that movie.

[mjbull23]

double post.

[Kevin Roegele]

I love Burton's Batman, and you know what? I love Begins as well. Yes, it is possible to like both.

[Bat Attack]

Originally Posted by Catman

Welcome to the other side. Begins is a great movie! Its flaw is that it lacks wonder...you know? Nolan just throws stuff at you! In B89 burton throws some "awe" factors in. Like when we see the batcave for the first time is a great example. You see some monitors and the camera starts to slowly pull back. Everyone in the audience is like, "ooo its the batcave. wow!" In Begins Nolan just throws it at you. "Hey, here's the batcave!"

Begins lacks the awe factor.

Well put , now who wants something on the grill?

[Buttman]

I still think Begins is a very good movie and enjoy it very much. However I think B89 is an excellent movie in comparision. Begins doesn't seem to have the play-back factor that B89 has, however like I've said earlier I can still watch B89 all the damn time. I watched it yesterday for instance, I've not watched Begins in a fortnight at least.

[Voyeur]

Batman '89...more "depth"?

You can't see me laughing histerically.

[Catman]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

I love Burton's Batman, and you know what? I love Begins as well. Yes, it is possible to like both.

Agreed.

[The Batman]

After recently buying the Batman 89 SE, and watching it over and over...i have to say i prefer burtons movie, as much as i like Nolan.

And its simply because of the fact that burton took Batman to mythic levels...something nolan never really does in BB. From the first scene with the legendary "I'm Batman" line, from Batman's movements, to Jack Nicholson's Joker...I feel like I'm watching a movie on a pop culture icon, thats celebrating what he is. Nolan, however, demystifies Batman sadly. Burton's world is interesting and fits the gotham city of the kane/finger run. I honestly feel like i'm seeing a moving comic when i watch the movie. There's definately influences from the original run, as well as the marshall rogers batman.

[Catman]

Originally Posted by The Batman

Nolan, however, demystifies Batman sadly.

Yup. As much as I love BB i was always against that "realism" s--t. Its BATMAN, you know. But whatever.

[Herr Logan]

Running very low on cogency and comments myself at the moment, I just want to say that I agree particularly with the points made by Buttman, Catman, mjbull23 and The Batman. The "awe factor" vs. the "demystifying factor" is one of the fundamental differences in the styles of these movies, and it's a deal-breaker for me. Burton used a "noir-ish" style for the overall story and laid the fantasy over it, which is the very essence of the original Batman concept. 'Begins' had precious little "noir" to it, and it clumsily attempted to avoid the fantasy element (but clearly failed, since that movie was extremely unrealistic in matters of physics, criminology, etc. and even lacked internal consistency).

On a character level, I'll put it this way:
I can't take Bale's Batman seriously during dialogue. If you have to scream to get your point across while holding a man several stories above hard pavement, you're not up for the task. Michael Keaton's Batman (who was also holding a man several stories above hard pavement) merely whispered to get his point across in the most badass Batman scene ever filmed. I'll take the one who keeps his cool, thank you. As for the version we're stuck with, I can just imagining him saying "I'm the Goddamn Batman!" and actually pulling it off, since they've strayed far from the subtlety, coldness and dignity of the earlier incarnation.

[Agentsands77]

Originally Posted by Buttman

However, after 2 years of repeated viewings (maybe.. 200 viewings?) I've come to the conclusion that B89 is just a better film, with a spirit more true to Batman.

I don't agree, really. As far as quality goes, I'd say BATMAN '89 and BATMAN BEGINS are about equal. Equally flawed, equally good, just in different ways.

Originally Posted by Buttman

B89 has more depth, more lines that are left ambigious ("Are we going to try to love each other? "I'd like too.") while Begins is very straight to the point.

It's true that BEGINS is more straight to the point, but I don't think BATMAN '89 has a whole lot of depth on display. It leaves some ambiguity in a few moments, but ambiguity doesn't necessarily mean depth.

Originally Posted by Buttman

Batsuit & Batmobile

I don't think there's anyone who prefers the Begins costume or Batmobile to Batman's, so I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this one right out there.

Winner = Batman

Uh, I prefer the BEGINS costume to the B89 costume. By a mile. As far as Batmobile, I like B89 and BEGINS equally.

[mclay18]

Originally Posted by Catman

Begins lacks the awe factor.

Not exactly. BB does have its fair share of awe-inspiring moments. The scene after Gordon and the police find Falcone strapped to the spotlight, where the camera pans skywards and you see Batman standing on the building like a gargoyle. That's one right there, and the scene after Bruce gets his present from Rachel and goes down to the Batcave, where the moment he opens his costume closet (that clearly echoes the scene from the B89 film). And there's also the final moment where Batman perches on the ledge, says "And you'll never have to" and jumps off, where Batman seems to flying towards the camera.

I think Nolan purposely muted the awe moments in BB and save them for moments that really earned their "awe" factor. Some of the awe moments in B89 were overdramatized by Burton, but that movie had its awe moments too.

[Catman]

Originally Posted by Agentsands77

It's true that BEGINS is more straight to the point, but I don't think BATMAN '89 has a whole lot of depth on display.

I agree that B89 isn't really that deep. Its Batman Returns thats REALLY DEEP! Its still the most artistic Batman movie.

Originally Posted by mclay18

Not exactly. BB does have its fair share of awe-inspiring moments.

Agreed, but B89 had more! BB had a couple here and there but not that many.

[Agentsands77]

Originally Posted by Catman

I agree that B89 isn't really that deep. Its Batman Returns thats REALLY DEEP! Its still the most artistic Batman movie.

Yes and no. Is it the one with the most artistic intentions? Sure. It doesn't really entirely deliver on them, though, and "really deep" is still stretching it.

Originally Posted by Catman

Agreed, but B89 had more! BB had a couple here and there but not that many.

I'd argue that statement. BEGINS had more than enough "awe" moments, especially for Batman, who's typically a more subdued character. I liked the fact that BEGINS was a little more restrained than your average full-throttle comic book flick.

And even if BEGINS had less, it more than made up for it in really great character moments.

[Leenie]

I love both films, but I think I like Batman Begins slightly more.

After seeing Begins for the first time, I didn't know whether I liked it more than Burton's Batman. It was after seeing both movies back-to-back on DVD when I decided which one I love the most.

There's one thing that surprised me, though: I thought that my father would absolutely ADORE Batman Begins, because he loves serious detective movies. I mean, my dad also enjoys comic book movies, but I don't see him watch those type of movies as often. So, I assumed that Batman Begins would be right up his alley. After watching Begins with my dad, I can tell that he liked it, but he said (and I quote), "The Batman with Jack Nicholson was so much better, because it felt like a superhero movie." I totally understand where he's coming from.

[Catman]

Originally Posted by Agentsands77

Yes and no. Is it the one with the most artistic intentions? Sure. It doesn't really entirely deliver on them, though, and "really deep" is still stretching it.

Kevin, Guard, and myself have explained Batman Returns a million times. I'm sure you can find our explanation in some of the those threads because right now I'm not in the mood to explain it to you.

I'd argue that statement. BEGINS had more than enough "awe" moments, especially for Batman, who's typically a more subdued character. I liked the fact that BEGINS was a little more restrained than your average full-throttle comic book flick.

And even if BEGINS had less, it more than made up for it in really great character moments.

I disagree. I felt Begins was a bit too dry. Or atleast thats how Kevin Roegle puts it. To me it has MAYBE 2 or 3 "awe" moments but thats about it. B89 had a bunch of scenes that were that left you speechless! The roof fight, axis chemical scene (especially when Joker's hand pops out), Joker in surgery, Batman rescues Vicki at the museum, Batman takes Vicki to the batcave, Bats and Vick at the batcave, Batman destroying Axis chemicals, every scene with the batwing, the stuff at the church, and OF COURSE this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tiGCeWaYuM

[Agentsands77]

Originally Posted by Catman

Kevin, Guard, and myself have explained Batman Returns a million times. I'm sure you can find our explanation in some of the those threads because right now I'm not in the mood to explain it to you.

I've read them. And simply, I disagree, and have often posted as much in response. I think the critics underrate BATMAN RETURNS signficantly, and the lovers overrate it significantly. It's an interesting, but failed, experiment.

Originally Posted by Catman

B89 had a bunch of scenes that were that left you speechless!

Well, I guess. I've never been that impressed by BATMAN '89, so you're talking to the wrong man. But being left speechless isn't particularly a big goal of mine with a Batman film. That's just the goal of typical popcorn film spectacle, and I think BEGINS had a different approach to spectacle other than just .

Some of the moments that I was personally impressed by in BEGINS, whether through awe-impact or otherwise: Bruce walking up the mountain to the League fo Shadows, the emotionally-burndened flashback sequence featuring the death of Joe Chill, the training montage with swordfight, the excellent fear-aided evaluation scene, Batman's confrontation with Falcone at the docks, Batman interrogating Flass, Batman sobbing in the backseat of Alfred's limo, Demon Batman interrogating Jonathan Crane, Batman calling in "backup," the Batmobile chase, Bruce Wayne having to harm the Wayne legacy to save people's lives, Wayne Manor burning to the ground, Batman mobbed by tons of frightened people in the narrows, and "And you'll never have to."

[The Joker]

I enjoyed both of Burton's Batman movies ALOT more than Batman Begins.

[Dark Spidey]

Begins was just too realistic for it's own good, imo.

Realism is the antithesis of the comic book movie.