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Old 03-20-2014, 02:04 PM   #351
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Default Re: Superman the Movie = STILL the greatest superhero movie

The "General Perception" don't give a damn what the best CBM is, or won't give a clear consesus. Most people only care about what came out 5 minutes ago, as you've proved with your opinion on MOS.

And like I said, IMDB and RT are not the general audience. They are just as niche as this site.

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Old 03-20-2014, 02:06 PM   #352
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So? Does STM have the best ratings of all Super hero movies? I think this thread is about that. The title says it is the greatest superhero movie.

Superman is a character that has been portrayed on screen (tv and cinema) pretty much the same way since 1978. MOS goes in a completely different direction, so itīs pretty easy for people who grew up loving the Donner Universe to dislike something that seems so different from the original movie. Thatīs the reason why it is so difficult to make a Superman movie work without basing it on the Donner universe.

Oh, and btw, what does 86% means? It means 86% of the people liked the movie? Ok, but we donīt know if those 86% found it great or simply decente, do we? For that we would have to look at the ratings. Thatīs why percentages mean nothing to me.


Btw, Supermanīs rating on most sites are made of a very small amount of people. We all know that, most of the times, the bigger the number of votes, the lower the rating, so i donīt think your comparison is that relevant.
You brought up RT ratings. Therefore I thought you'd be able to handle that cool and nicely. I was wrong.

And no, it's not that MOS contradicts Donner's take but what Superman has been since 1938. Donner didn't create most of what is seen about the character.

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Old 03-20-2014, 02:07 PM   #353
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The "General Perception" don't give a damn what the best CBM is, or won't give a clear consesus. Most people only care about what came out 5 minutes ago, as you've proved with your opinion on MOS.

And like I said, IMDB and RT are not the general audience.
So, whatīs the "general audience" and how did you have access to their opinions in order to come up with the conclusion that they think Superman is the best superhero movie?

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Old 03-20-2014, 02:11 PM   #354
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You brought up RT ratings. Therefore I thought you'd be able to handle that cool and nicely. I was wrong.

And no, it's not that MOS contradicts Donner's take but what Superman has been since 1938. Donner didn't create most of what is seen about the character.
I didnīt mention percentages. I mentioned ratings. Ratings are more objective. Percentages are too vague.

In what aspects MOS contradicts what Superman has been since 1938? Assuming, of course, he has been the exact same thing since 1938, wich in fact he hasnīt.

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Old 03-20-2014, 02:27 PM   #355
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So, whatīs the "general audience" and how did you have access to their opinions in order to come up with the conclusion that they think Superman is the best superhero movie?
The only "General Audience" in this sense would be comic book and film buffs online.

Did I emphatically say people thought it was the best, or did I say "One of, if not the best", implying that its generally thought of as either one of the best or the best comic book movie?

Since you seem to think you know for a fact that it isn't considered the greatest CBM, what is?

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Old 03-20-2014, 02:47 PM   #356
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As a kid i never liked Superman, found him too powerful and lame, as i grew up i began to apreciate the character much more and he's now one of my favorites. I was never a big fan of Donner's version, i actually enjoy The Man of Steel more when it comes to entertainment, so my problem is not nostalgia at all, but MoS was not better than Superman: The Movie. Sure, better CGI, but the film itself was Zack Snyder trying to disguise himself as Christopher Nolan but accidentally going through Michael Bay extremes

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Old 03-20-2014, 03:11 PM   #357
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As a kid i never liked Superman, found him too powerful and lame, as i grew up i began to apreciate the character much more and he's now one of my favorites. I was never a big fan of Donner's version, i actually enjoy The Man of Steel more when it comes to entertainment, so my problem is not nostalgia at all, but MoS was not better than Superman: The Movie. Sure, better CGI, but the film itself was Zack Snyder trying to disguise himself as Christopher Nolan but accidentally going through Michael Bay extremes
Those extremes are the reality of almost every super hero movie nowadays. And they didnīt happen back then because the necessary resources didnīt exist yet.

Iīm not a big fan of MOS. I enjoyed it, but didnīt find it amazing. The same can be said for Superman: The Movie.

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The only "General Audience" in this sense would be comic book and film buffs online.

Did I emphatically say people thought it was the best, or did I say "One of, if not the best", implying that its generally thought of as either one of the best or the best comic book movie?

Since you seem to think you know for a fact that it isn't considered the greatest CBM, what is?
I donīt know what people you are talking about. Youīre clearly not talking about people who participate online in sites like IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes, since you claim they donīt represent the General Audience. So you must be talking about some other group of people. Maybe youīre talking about those who donīt vote and donīt care much about movies. Thatīs ok. I understand. But if thatīs the case, i just wanna know where did you have access to the consensus regarding the opinion of the "real" General Audience.


Iīm only talking about what i know. I know that Superman: The Movie isnīt considered the greatest super hero movie in any major movie site. Or is it? That, by itself, would invalidate the "if not the best" part.

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Old 03-20-2014, 03:36 PM   #358
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Iīm only talking about what i know. I know that Superman: The Movie isnīt considered the greatest super hero movie in any major movie site.
Then...what is?

If you claim to know one thing, you must certainly know the other half...if you know that STM isnt considered the greatest superhero on any major movie site, you must know what generally IS.

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Old 03-20-2014, 03:55 PM   #359
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Then...what is?

If you claim to know one thing, you must certainly know the other half...if you know that STM isnt considered the greatest superhero on any major movie site, you must know what generally IS.
Not sure. Maybe The Dark Knight, accoring the ratings.

On IMDB i think it follows this order:

1- TDK
2- TDKR
3- Batman Begins

On RT itīs a little different, but i think TDK is also number 1.

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Old 03-20-2014, 05:55 PM   #360
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Default Re: Superman the Movie = STILL the greatest superhero movie

Man...**** Imdb.

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Old 03-20-2014, 06:07 PM   #361
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Man...**** Imdb.
Why? Itīs pretty useful.

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Old 03-20-2014, 06:08 PM   #362
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Man...**** Imdb.

My sentiments exactly.

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Old 03-20-2014, 10:24 PM   #363
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Sure, better CGI, but the film itself was Zack Snyder trying to disguise himself as Christopher Nolan but accidentally going through Michael Bay extremes
All of Zack Snyder's films have been 'dark' and 'tragic'. You sound as though the guy was Steven Spielberg before he made Man of Steel. You're talking about Zack Snyder who has his heroes get killed or lobotomized at the end of his films. This is a guy who said he wants to 'cut' the audience with his films. Man of Steel was no different tonally then his previous hero efforts.

And Snyder has always had big time action in his films. I dont like how any film with big action sequences is always likened to the braindead Transformer sequels.

IMDB I think is a pretty good idea of what 20-30 year olds think of movies. The idea Superman The Movie is only tied with Man of Steel tells me only the 'older' generations feel fondly about Superman the Movie. The new generations may not have accepted Man of Steel as 'their' Superman, but they didnt accept Donner's version either.

Part of the problem is that the Superman fanbase is split, half want him to be a pure and perfect boy scout, the other have want to humanize him and bring him down to more relatable levels. Donner gave us the perfect boy scout version, Snyder gave us the perfect down to Earth Superman. Both can be considered extremes in one direction or the other. So its not surprising both films split the fanbase. Can there be a middle ground with Superman? I dont think so. I've seen too many films try to sit on the fence only to make a fool of themselves. Boy scout and serious character development does not go hand in hand.

As for Superman the Movie and Man of Steel identical IMDB scores, it should be noted Man of Steel had 33% of its votes go for a 9 or 10, while Superman the Movie had just 24% of its votes go for a 9 or 10. People felt more strongly about Man of Steel then Superman the Movie.

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Old 03-21-2014, 03:30 AM   #364
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Zack Snyder's movies are as braindead as Transformers movies IMAO, the difference is just that he can't admit it and still thinks he's making deep movies. It's because as a director he lacks restraint.

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Old 03-21-2014, 02:55 PM   #365
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Zack Snyder's movies are as braindead as Transformers movies IMAO, the difference is just that he can't admit it and still thinks he's making deep movies. It's because as a director he lacks restraint.
MOS had some pretty deep scenes. Not the most emotional movie ever, but i donīt see why you would call it "breaindead". The last act was a little messy and over the top, but the rest of the film was pretty good.

STM is actually way more "braindead" than MOS.

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Old 03-21-2014, 04:26 PM   #366
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IMDB I think is a pretty good idea of what 20-30 year olds think of movies. The idea Superman The Movie is only tied with Man of Steel tells me only the 'older' generations feel fondly about Superman the Movie.
IMDB is not very credible. It has the cesspool of the internet crawling around its forums on an everyday basis. Its an idea of what 20-30 year old neckbeards think about movies, which must be why Inception is # 13 in their top 250 films of all time, while The Dark Knight is number 4.


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Part of the problem is that the Superman fanbase is split, half want him to be a pure and perfect boy scout, the other have want to humanize him and bring him down to more relatable levels. Donner gave us the perfect boy scout version, Snyder gave us the perfect down to Earth Superman. Both can be considered extremes in one direction or the other. So its not surprising both films split the fanbase. Can there be a middle ground with Superman? I dont think so. I've seen too many films try to sit on the fence only to make a fool of themselves. Boy scout and serious character development does not go hand in hand.
Superman the Movie did not split the fanbase. Is it the favorite movie of most Superman fans? I don't know. But no Superman film has inspired as much criticism and scrutiny as the last two films. To act like STM is divisive is a fantasy.


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As for Superman the Movie and Man of Steel identical IMDB scores, it should be noted Man of Steel had 33% of its votes go for a 9 or 10, while Superman the Movie had just 24% of its votes go for a 9 or 10. People felt more strongly about Man of Steel then Superman the Movie.
You mean 20-30 year old internet fanboys felt more strongly about MOS than STM.

BTW, on youtube, the Justin Bieber video with the highest viewcount is 1,009,065,796. Meanwhile, The Beatles highest vid count is only 17 million. Does that mean that people feel more strongly about Bieber than they do the Beatles, or does it just mean that, since Bieber is newer he will be talked about more than the band that was around and broke up over 40 years ago?

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Old 03-21-2014, 04:57 PM   #367
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You mean 20-30 year old internet fanboys felt more strongly about MOS than STM.
Well, the ratings of both movies for people above 30 and above 45 are almost the same, with a very, very little advantage going to STM.

Plus, we must not forget that MOS has A LOT more votes than STM. We all know that ratings decrease with the number of voters, wich means that STMīs score would most likely be lower than MOS, for every demographic, if they had the same number of votes.

Basically, you donīt really have a point.


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Old 03-21-2014, 05:15 PM   #368
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Basically, you donīt really have a point.
Yeah I do...my point is that I don't trust IMDB ratings. Much like how you don't trust percentages.

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Old 03-21-2014, 05:42 PM   #369
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Yeah I do...my point is that I don't trust IMDB ratings. Much like how you don't trust percentages.
Your example was not valid, and i showed you why.

According to IMDB, what "20-30 year old neckbeards" think about your beloved Superman movie is basically the same of what everyone else thinks about it, since apparently the rating is almost equal to all demographics. Itīs not like 20-30 year old neckberds voted 6 and the rest of the world voted 9.

Iīm still waiting for you to tell me who do you trust. Because, if thereīs a way of getting a more credible idea regarding what the General Audience really thinks of this movie, i wanna know it. Apparently, IMDB is not reliable, and the consensus of "7.4" is false. Maybe THE REAL consensus is "9.5", and weīre all deluded.

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Old 03-21-2014, 06:06 PM   #370
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Iīm still waiting for you to tell me who do you trust. Because, if thereīs a way of getting a more credible idea regarding what the General Audience really thinks of this movie, i wanna know it.
IMO, There isn't any. You and Bluearth are spouting off data from IMDB of all places that happens to support your pro MOS view.

Congrats. You proved that a fraction of older people on the internet liked STM slightly more than MOS. If I hadn't stated repeatedly that I don't give a **** about IMDB already, I'd hand you a medal.

Let's face it: You're not going to change my mind. I'm not going to change yours. This thread has become derailed enough.

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Old 03-21-2014, 06:13 PM   #371
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IMO, There isn't any. You and Bluearth are spouting off data from IMDB of all places that happens to support your pro MOS view.

Congrats. You proved that a fraction of older people on the internet liked STM slightly more than MOS. If I hadn't stated repeatedly that I don't give a **** about IMDB already, I'd hand you a medal.

Let's face it: You're not going to change my mind. I'm not going to change yours. This thread has become derailed enough.
Iīm not trying to change your mind. Iīm just trying to understand on what do you base the claim that this movie is perceived as one of the best, if not the best. That info must be avaliable somewhere. Maybe a website more reliable than IMDB? Maybe a giant poll that i donīt know of? Just curious...


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Old 03-21-2014, 07:48 PM   #372
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MOS had some pretty deep scenes. Not the most emotional movie ever, but i donīt see why you would call it "breaindead". The last act was a little messy and over the top, but the rest of the film was pretty good.

STM is actually way more "braindead" than MOS.
Uhm, what? You can try putting the great music score as much as you want, in MoS the story However lacks that much character, almost everyone is an interchangeable character, even Lois Lane, with a good actress on board was quite forgetable in the film, pretty much lacked a lot of the endearing characteristics that the original character had.

"One day you will walk with them, into the sun" isn't for a deep movie, it's Trailer phrases disguised as depth. And all the talk with Kal-El about how humans aren't perfect and he can help us, but in the end his coming to Earth was what caused the obliteration of a good portion of Metropolis in the movie and Zod's coming.

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Old 03-21-2014, 08:03 PM   #373
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Uhm, what? You can try putting the great music score as much as you want, in MoS the story However lacks that much character, almost everyone is an interchangeable character, even Lois Lane, with a good actress on board was quite forgetable in the film, pretty much lacked a lot of the endearing characteristics that the original character had.

"One day you will walk with them, into the sun" isn't for a deep movie, it's Trailer phrases disguised as depth. And all the talk with Kal-El about how humans aren't perfect and he can help us, but in the end his coming to Earth was what caused the obliteration of a good portion of Metropolis in the movie and Zod's coming.
"What", what? I canīt find some scenes deep? I think the death of Clarkīs father was pretty deep. I think some of the scenes between young clark and his father were also deep. The performances were almost all very good. Russell Crowe, Kevin Costner, Henry Cavill and Amy Adams were all on point.

Iīm not really understanding why it is so difficult for you to understand that some people might think the movie has deep scenes.

To me this is far from a perfect movie. I gave it a 7/10. But to act like it is an absolute piece of trash is maybe a little too much.

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Old 03-21-2014, 08:14 PM   #374
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It wasn't an absolute piece of trash, but it wasn't all that good either. Hell, even Michael Bay characters had more "character" than most of the ones in MoS, it was well cast, but the script wasted a lot of the elements. Though i did like what they did with Zod's character in this one, his motivations were well thought and i don't see that many villains like that in blockbusters.

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Old 03-21-2014, 08:33 PM   #375
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It wasn't an absolute piece of trash, but it wasn't all that good either. Hell, even Michael Bay characters had more "character" than most of the ones in MoS, it was well cast, but the script wasted a lot of the elements. Though i did like what they did with Zod's character in this one, his motivations were well thought and i don't see that many villains like that in blockbusters.
Most of them were perfectly well developed. We got plenty of Jor-El, plenty of Zod, plenty of Jonathan Ken, plenty of Lois Lane.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of important characters to show, but Clark Kent/Superman is the center, and the movie needs to tell and show as much about him as possible, since it is an origin movie. In that sense, the movie did a decent job giving all characters something important to do without taking the spotlight away from Superman. Theyīre all properly introduced and they all have an impact in the development of the story.

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