Should Harry have been brought back instead of Norman?

[JJJ's Ulcer]

As a lot of you know, the original idea for the clone-saga mastermind was Harry Osborn... Reading back on JM DeMatteis's Harry/Goblin stories made me think that his return could have brought some cool, emotionally loaded stories to Spider-Man. Sure, his send-off was classic, but so was Norman's, and while Norman seems to be more of a brilliant mastermind with more of a reach, there was something about Harry that was more personal (until "forced" baggage with Norman like him killing Reilly, baby May, kidnapping Aunt May and Normie, almost killing Flash, blah blah, etc happened) about their fued and more sad. Now I don't hate Norman's return like others did. I think he's had some good stories (and some REALLY bad stories too ofcourse). But I can't help but think what Harry's return would have brought.

So my question is which outcome of the clone-saga mastermind would you have preferred...

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I voted for Harry.

[Abaddon]

just repeating:
did the story really need a grand mastermind no one saw coming?

[JustABill]

I don't think the story did. And I don't think Norman's done anything worth while since. And if Harry did come back I'm pretty sure after seeing Spider-Man 3 I'd want him to return as a friend.

[SpideyStu2]

I think Norman was still better choice of the two to bring back because he's the "ultimate" villain for Spider-Man. Yeah, Harry coming back from the dead would have made for some excellent stories to be told and i'm sure he probably even would have turned good, at least for a bit, but Norman is still the better choice of the two. That doesn't mean I think that Norman should have been brought back, but nonetheless, he's the better choice.

[freemadison]

I would have been more interested in a Harry return but I don't think it would've worked with anyone other than Norman (maybe Doc Ock, but he was recently killed off). Norman had the "reach" and I actually found the retcons explaining his return to be very plausible. I mean, I liked how Harry set up the fake parents thingy from beyond the grave (clearly before he redeemed himself before his death) but I don't think it would've been as emotionally satisfying as Norman.

[Joker]

No. Harry's final story was about redemption, and forgiveness. Him coming back all evil again would have totally destroyed that. Norman, on the other hand, was always an evil son of a b**ch with no interest in redemption.

[mre]

The mastermind should have been a clone of Norman.

[DACrowe]

Harry would have been worse. Norman was great as a mastermind for a the story if there needed to be one and since his return he has had several amazing stories and quite a few terrible ones. Harry coming back would just suck though.

[SpideyInATree]

Originally Posted by The Joker

No. Harry's final story was about redemption, and forgiveness. Him coming back all evil again would have totally destroyed that. Norman, on the other hand, was always an evil son of a b**ch with no interest in redemption.

Agreed. The entire point of Spectacular Spider-Man # 200 and the reason why Harry's death was so classic and impactful is that Harry Osborn died SAVING Peter Parker from death. Essentially Harry got to be a hero like his best friend always was.

Bringing Harry Osborn back as the mastermind of the Clone Saga would have spit on that, pooped on it, and then with a little puke topping...and a dingleberry on top. Norman Osborn was the more logical choice. While it took away some of the impact of his death it didn't really drastically shake up continuity, especially if you've ever read Glen Greenberg's The Osborn Files, which basically chronicles the moment Norman died to his reveal that he was the mastermind.

I'm glad that Norman Osborn is still around, because he's awesome right now in the Thunderbolts, and the fact that Harry's death can HOPEFULLY rest in peace.

[Knightsaber Priss]

I'm inclined to vote for neither because I don't know very much about Harry's storylines in the comics (Because, well I was more interested in Venom and Carnage.) and as far as Norman goes, he had a freaking glider decimate his vital organs. Saying he developed a healing factor from the serum would have been easier to swallow if he suffered a glider mishap similar to Norman's in the movie, but having his chest cavity rearranged is just even too implausible an injury to heal from even in the comics.

[Joker]

Now, on the other hand, if they had made the clone saga another one of Harry's little scheme that he set into motion before he died, like the whole Peter's parents thing, I could have dealt with that...

And Godzilla2000, Norman's healing factor has been shown to be slightly less than Wolverines, and Wolverine recently survived being burnt down the the skeleton. So, no I dont think being impaled is too implausible to heal from.

[The Shredder]

Norman was the better choice I suppose as far as bringing one of the two back as a villain and mastermind of the clone saga. Although both would have no doubt provided the dramatic effect that Marvel was looking for, Norman ultimately is a bit more logical for a return, story wise, than Harry would have been.

[November Rain]

In a twisted way, i would have liked the spirit of norman osbourne to come back in the body of his son.

that could have been fairly impressive to see norman getting to pete without him even realising.

apart from that, i liked the way the story ended, i only wish that norman still had ben in his house locked up so that any time he feel's stressed he can just go to a room and beat the **** out of spiderman (or at least a nearly identical clone).

[Knightsaber Priss]

Originally Posted by The Joker

And Godzilla2000, Norman's healing factor has been shown to be slightly less than Wolverines, and Wolverine recently survived being burnt down the the skeleton. So, no I dont think being impaled is too implausible to heal from.

Well, I haven't really read an X-Men comic in over ten years here ya know. And Wolverine healing from getting charred to a skeleton is just as implausible to me as Norman healing from that glider to the chest.

[freemadison]

Originally Posted by November Rain

In a twisted way, i would have liked the spirit of norman osbourne to come back in the body of his son.

that could have been fairly impressive to see norman getting to pete without him even realising.

apart from that, i liked the way the story ended, i only wish that norman still had ben in his house locked up so that any time he feel's stressed he can just go to a room and beat the **** out of spiderman (or at least a nearly identical clone).

now if we can only figure out a way to free him from norman's clutches...

[November Rain]

he shouldnt be released, he should be found there during like a government raid on his house still chained up to the wall beaten to a pulp with like long brown hair with blonde tips from when his dye has grown out...

[Kraven]

Citizen_Kaine, the poster on these boards, had a good theory for why Ned Leeds should've been behind it. I don't really want to post it all, but after reading through his understanding of it, it sounded like it would've turned out a lot better.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I'm not too positive exactly how I feel about Norman these days, considering that while the Green Goblin IS a pretty classic and iconic villain, most of the stories he's been in since his return have been more of the "Oh, come ON!" variety than anything rivaling the Lee/Ditko/Romita era.

As for Harry, there are two things wrong with that:

1.) It robs his original death of any impact, as others have stated,

and

2.) the original intention was for him to return as a giant robot-cyborg thing. No thanks.

[freemadison]

Originally Posted by tom123

Citizen_Kaine, the poster on these boards, had a good theory for why Ned Leeds should've been behind it. I don't really want to post it all, but after reading through his understanding of it, it sounded like it would've turned out a lot better.

I haven't heard from that guy in a while. Hopefully he's doing alright.

[Mr Jide]

Originally Posted by The Joker

No. Harry's final story was about redemption, and forgiveness. Him coming back all evil again would have totally destroyed that. Norman, on the other hand, was always an evil son of a b**ch with no interest in redemption.

QFT

[Spec Spider-Man]

I voted Norman.

[Spidey_87]

Even though Norman's return has not yet lived up to the expectations, I can see why Marvel would pick him over Harry. Norman has always been the greatest challenge for Peter on a personal level. Maybe Marvel will eventually come up with some new, fresh Spidey/Goblin stories that will support my argument for Norman.

As for Harry, I'm glad he did not come back. The last few issues up to Spectacular Spider-Man 200 really illustrated the "loop" that Peter and Harry would go through. From the "Child Within" to Harry's death in issue 200, is probably still some of the best Spidey stories from the last 20 years. His death is iconic because he spends so much time hating Peter, but he eventually redeems himself as a hero. Just look at the scene where a drugged Peter is unable to rescue MJ and Normie from the bomb Harry planted. Peter keeps begging Harry to make the move and save his son and MJ. Harry even states that "I'm no hero like you Peter. My father said I could do nothing right." Peter then replies "I don't care about your father, I care about you." This is really powerful stuff that should not be tainted with.

As far as seeing Harry back in the comics I doubt it will happen. However, I would love to see a "Spider-Man:Blue" like story about Harry and his relationship with Norman, Peter, Gwen, MJ, etc.

[Kevin Roegele]

It's all the Clone Saga's fault. Marvel had to quickly backtrack and say, "Hey, Spidey isn't really the clone, it was all a hugely elaborate hoax to drive him crazy!"

But who could create such a hoax? It would have to be a very impressive villain, an old arch enemy. Doc Ock had recently died. Venom was not smart enough. The Hobgoblin was Jason Mercendale, again not smart enough. So it had to be either Harry or Norman. Harry coming back would have made a mess of everything.

Norman returning was the only thing Marvel could do.....unless they just stuck to their guns and left Peter as the clone (which I would have respected so much more). I doubt the comics would be as deriative and unpopular as they are today if we had Ben Reilly as Spider-Man.

Anyway, I'd rather both Harry and Norman were still dead. Norman works better as a presence from beyond the grave, the madness of the Goblin always waiting to infect someone else.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by mre

The mastermind should have been a clone of Norman.

Good idea. Very good. It would have added much to his character if he was forever questioning himself and his worth in life. There could have been a storyline where he decides that he refuses to hate Spider-Man like the original Norman and avoids a life of violence and crime.