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Old 06-23-2007, 09:56 AM   #76
manofsteel4life
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Originally Posted by mego joe View Post
It just seems contradictory to say that he was happier when it should be a gutwrenching experience to know that someone else is raising your child b/c you were a jerk. If he really feels happier now, he's a completely uncaring idiot. Oh, maybe that's who he is in Singer's movies.
see this is when i think some people are being closed minded....but correct me if im wrong,but did superman know he had a child, before he left for Krypton? And besides he still has human qualities, even if he is alien, that's why he wanted to find out if there was more like him out there. The same goes for children that grow up, without a mom or a dad, and get adopted. You still have some curiousity as to..i wonder if i have brother or sisters, out there, that i never knew about, or where are my parents? So in my opinion i really dont think he was being a jerk, if that's what you are implying, the reason he is one

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Old 06-23-2007, 11:55 AM   #77
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I think Jason is his miracle. It meant he wasn't alone and he was happy about that. If you need a "Star Wars" equivalent - wasn't Anakin happy he was a father when he heard about it and refused to think about the complications in that moment. I think it was the same for Superman. He was happy about Jason existing especially as he probably thought he would be impossible in the first place (having a child).

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Old 06-23-2007, 11:57 AM   #78
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I think Jason is his miracle. It meant he wasn't alone and he was happy about that. If you need a "Star Wars" equivalent - wasn't Anakin happy he was a father when he heard about it and refused to think about the complications in that moment. I think it was the same for Superman. He was happy about Jason existing especially as he probably thought he would be impossible in the first place (having a child).

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right on!

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Old 06-23-2007, 08:52 PM   #79
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it's funny how you seem to be the main advocate behind this "opinion is different from fact" movement, yet you seem to be stating opinion as fact. I said that people have argued that the kid was a poor attempt to throw a plot twist into the superman franchise, kind of like a gimmick. and your rebuttal is that these poeple are "wrong" because Singer isn't into gimmicks (because you know Singer so well). You're the main one complaining about people just always have to be right and know everything...and then you flat out say that people who basically don't see things the way you do are wrong. hyporcrite much? you just made posts about opinions and facts...and this whole thing about how people so insistant on being right.....well, what do you think you're doing? but i understand your need to stand by superman returns and constantly defend it by all means necessary...and condescendingly discredit other individual's opinions. i guess if the boards truly are going to hell (like you so melodramatically insist...you're apart of the problem)
Yes. Finally someone else tells him what I been trying to tell the guy. I just put him on ignore. But good to see someone else not putting up with it from him, and telling him so.

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Old 06-24-2007, 05:10 AM   #80
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It's actually quite hilarious that buggs is making these comments more often now he can't see my replies.

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Old 06-24-2007, 11:47 PM   #81
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see this is when i think some people are being closed minded....but correct me if im wrong,but did superman know he had a child, before he left for Krypton?
That's not the problem, it's irrelevant whether he knew or not. He left Lois, the love of his life, the woman with whom he was having a sexual relationship (we're assuming it was also a committed relationship, b/c I can't imagine Superman in a casual sexual relationship with anyone) for 5 years w/o saying goodbye and he KNEW it was wrong to do it.

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And besides he still has human qualities, even if he is alien,
But, even when Superman makes mistakes, you never question if his motivation or if his heart was in the right place. Concerning Lois, it clearly wasn't.
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that's why he wanted to find out if there was more like him out there. The same goes for children that grow up, without a mom or a dad, and get adopted. You still have some curiousity as to..i wonder if i have brother or sisters, out there, that i never knew about, or where are my parents?
No problem there.
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So in my opinion i really dont think he was being a jerk, if that's what you are implying, the reason he is one
Nope, he's a jerk b/c of the way he left Lois and was not consciencious about his respobsibilities and obligations as an adult in a sexual relationship. That's why I feel he was a jerk and a horrible example of a parent.

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Old 06-24-2007, 11:52 PM   #82
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I think Jason is his miracle. It meant he wasn't alone and he was happy about that. If you need a "Star Wars" equivalent - wasn't Anakin happy he was a father when he heard about it and refused to think about the complications in that moment. I think it was the same for Superman. He was happy about Jason existing especially as he probably thought he would be impossible in the first place (having a child).

Angeloz
But in Superman's case, it is also bittersweet b/c he's going to be unable to raise that child. It just isn't a clear cut case of being happy to be a parent. Children aren't there to make their parents to feel 'like they are not alone.' Children are the responsibility of their parents, not the other way around.

As far as Anakin goes, he was already on the path to the dark side and clearly not lucid about his situation. Sure he seemed happy, but it wasn't enough to make him feel happy enough to pull away from the dark path he was already on.

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Old 06-24-2007, 11:59 PM   #83
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You know, I think a father would only be concerned if his son was happy, rather than being concerned about who he believes to be his father. I think that would make him an uncaring jerk.
No a good parent would want what is BEST for his or her child. Sometimes a child is not happy, but that child is getting what is in fact best for that child. A good parent also would realize that it is his or her responsibility to care and raise that child, because it is morally and ethically the right thing to do.

If all a parent is concerned in the child's happiness, then they are not thinking like a parent.

Finally, the whole issue goes back to before he left for Krypton. His mistake was made then. In the situation he comes back to the best situation for Jason at the moment is to be raised by Lois and Richard. But before he left, if he had been congnisant of his responsibilities and obligations as an adult in a sexual relationship he might have gone ahead and told Lois that he was going to be gone for 5 years, in case she wondered why she hadn't seen him for a while.

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Old 06-25-2007, 12:06 AM   #84
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That's not the problem, it's irrelevant whether he knew or not. He left Lois, the love of his life, the woman with whom he was having a sexual relationship (we're assuming it was also a committed relationship, b/c I can't imagine Superman in a casual sexual relationship with anyone) for 5 years w/o saying goodbye and he KNEW it was wrong to do it.

true....yea, but im sure he felt like ****, cause he did say it was unbearable for him to say goodbye to Lois, which it doesnt make him any less of a jerk, i guess, but im sure there are more reasons why, especially emotions of maybe finding anyone left from his planet

But, even when Superman makes mistakes, you never question if his motivation or if his heart was in the right place. Concerning Lois, it clearly wasn't.

yea, i thought so to,but he knows that he does love Lois, that's why i think he couldnt look her in the eyes and say he was leaving
No problem there.


Nope, he's a jerk b/c of the way he left Lois and was not consciencious about his respobsibilities and obligations as an adult in a sexual relationship. That's why I feel he was a jerk and a horrible example of a parent.
but he didnt know he had a child...had he knew, im sure he wouldnt have left for sure

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Old 06-25-2007, 12:22 AM   #85
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We don't know the full circumstances of him leaving beyond trying to find Krypton.
An excellent example of why SR is a poorly made film. Not knowing makes it difficult to understand Superman and Lois's motivations in the movie. Isn't it odd that this is left up to interpretation? But it really comes down to SUperman not saying goodbye to Lois. I don't think that's defensable under any circumstances considering what we do know from SR.

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Really? Jason has Richard and Lois as parents. They both love each other. Superman is his guardian angel (As much as it's eating him up inside). Beyond that he might only suspect Supes is his father.
Yes, really. When Jason reaches a certain age and his powers develop, he's going to find out. At that point he's going to experiene all kinds of problem, especially in relation to SUperman. Imagine finding out that your father is not only one of the most well known and powerful people in the world, he lives in the same city as you and you weren't important enough to him to raise you? That is the question that a child in Jason's would ask. It isn't all smoothed out. THe worst is yet to come for Jason. If Jason was not going to develop powers that would make it obvious that he's not Richard's son, then him never knowing would make the most sense and be the best for him until he is an adult. But it's not going to happen that way. He's going to be 11 or 12 and it's going to blow up and create all sorts of havoc in his life, if it is treated realistically that is.

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Uh uh. Wrong. There's plenty of stories that show just how flawed Superman really is. It's just that most stories don't give a damn.
But you never question if SUperman's heart is in the right place, do you? You never question his motivations. You know he believes he is doing the right thing. Unquestionably, in SR SUperman makes a huge, life altering for 4 people mistake that is obviously wrong and he knows it is wrong before he makes it.


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Yes the mistakes created the conflict, no they don't define him. Him wanting to give his life to save the world and stirring others into action are what define him.
They why couldn't he sacrifice his own pain and do the right thing and be honest with Lois about leaving? To me these two situations play off each other to build a complete character, a character that Singer wants he viewer to see as conflicted and ironic. In other words, he can sacrifice for nameless millions, but to those whom he is closest (Lois) he can't. You've got to take it all together as a piece of his character.


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Well, if you want to feel that way, that's up to you. But you might want to blame Superman II (Before you post Singer saying it didn't happen that way, save it. Because it still happened just not the "Sleepover in the mylar bed") as well, seeing as how that's what they where building off of.
Actually, you are wrong about that. Lois knows that SUperman is Clark before they have sex in both version of Superman II. In that movie, it is clear that he is committed to her, he's willing to give up his powers in order to be with her.

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In the end this line



is what seperates our opinions on the characterization of Superman. I think it's way off the mark, but I'm not going to try and change what you think and there's no point for you to do likewise. Basically opinions and a**holes.
Understand your idea about opinions etc..., but I don't think you can separate the public life of a person and a private life of a person and think that they are don't go together to create the complete characterization of an individual. For instance, a politician who appears nice, friendly and honest in his public life, but in his private life is cheating on his wife is still a jerk. So, even though SUperman in SR appears to be a self-sacrificing, altruistic caring individual who can't be honest with Lois about leaving Earth for 5 years and who is not considering the moral and ethical obligations of being in a sexual relationship is still a jerk, under any circumstances.

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Old 06-25-2007, 12:28 AM   #86
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but he didnt know he had a child...had he knew, im sure he wouldnt have left for sure

I doesn't matter if he knew, his actions towards Lois indicate he wasn't even considering the moral and ethical obligations of being in a sexual relationship. That is the problem. Sure, if he knew he wouldn't have left, but if he's not considering his moral and ethical obligations of being in a sexual relationship, he's immature, irresponsible and not a good upstanding man.

To say otherwise treats sex far too casually and irresponsibly.

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Old 06-25-2007, 12:32 AM   #87
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I doesn't matter if he knew, his actions towards Lois indicate he wasn't even considering the moral and ethical obligations of being in a sexual relationship. That is the problem. Sure, if he knew he wouldn't have left, but if he's not considering his moral and ethical obligations of being in a sexual relationship, he's immature, irresponsible and not a good upstanding man.

To say otherwise treats sex far too casually and irresponsibly.
yea.....like you said before about how we are interpreting things.....i think it will be clearer in the sequel, about why he left, because i really dont think it was just him wanting to find out about Krypton, but i totally understand your point mega

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Old 06-25-2007, 12:33 AM   #88
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But in Superman's case, it is also bittersweet b/c he's going to be unable to raise that child. It just isn't a clear cut case of being happy to be a parent. Children aren't there to make their parents to feel 'like they are not alone.' Children are the responsibility of their parents, not the other way around.

As far as Anakin goes, he was already on the path to the dark side and clearly not lucid about his situation. Sure he seemed happy, but it wasn't enough to make him feel happy enough to pull away from the dark path he was already on.
I know you're a parent. So when you first had the news were you happy, sad, angry, afraid or indifferent? Don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable. I think the film shows Superman's reaction is happy. As for the other stuff he knows Jason is loved by his (other) parents. Also he himself was adopted and raised by non-biological parents. He may worry about what his involvement may or may not be. But I think he was just enjoying the fact of Jason's existance. And not letting the other stuff intrude on that for those moments. I guess you don't believe in just enjoying the moment. Too worried about your children? Or do you have the true happiness curse like Angel?

So if you think him being happy is a sign of the Dark Side what do you think his first act will be? Burn Richard's bum with his heat vision?

Angeloz

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Old 06-25-2007, 01:08 AM   #89
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I know you're a parent. So when you first had the news were you happy, sad, angry, afraid or indifferent? Don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable.
Well, when my wife and I looked at the pregnancy test in the bathroom together, we were kind of in disbelief, it didn't seem real at first. But at the moment of birth, we were both ecstatic. It is the greatest experience in the world. Our second daughter was the same.

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I think the film shows Superman's reaction is happy.
I felt it was bittersweet, b/c Superman repeats the same speech Jor-El made in a similarly bittersweet moment.
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As for the other stuff he knows Jason is loved by his (other) parents. Also he himself was adopted and raised by non-biological parents. He may worry about what his involvement may or may not be. But I think he was just enjoying the fact of Jason's existance. And not letting the other stuff intrude on that for those moments. I guess you don't believe in just enjoying the moment.
I think this whole discussion started this time b/c I was saying something about the next films tone and handling of the situation. I was saying it would not be lighter and more upbeat b/c the circumstances of Jason with 3 parents is too complex to be a simple happy, upbeat storyline.

Additionally, you can't take SUperman getting the news that Jason is his son out of the context of the situation. The sitation is that he's not going to be that everyday father who raises Jason and that has to impact his reaction. It's not simply getting the news he's a father, it's also getting the news that he's missed the first four years of his son's life as well. His moment with him is a moment of controlled emotion, not unbridled ecstasy at becoming a parent. He can't just grab him and hug him and tell him how much he loves him, which is what I did when I first held both my daughters. It's completely different from the context of my situation.

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Too worried about your children? Or do you have the true happiness curse like Angel?
Well, you worry during all the post-natal assessments and tests. You worry about hospitals messing up and switching babies on you. YOu worry about your wife and how she's doing (my wife was gestational diabetic for both pregnancies). You are certainly carried by the euphoria of experiencing the birth of your children, but becasue you already loved them before they were born and you want the best for them, there are always concerns.

What's the true happiness curse and who is Angel? You?


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So if you think him being happy is a sign of the Dark Side what do you think his first act will be? Burn Richard's bum with his heat vision?

Angeloz
No, not at all. I didn't think that it was a good analogy b/c Annakin was on the path to the dark side and SUperman clearly is not. Superman is not portrayed as evil, just irresponsible and immature when it comes to his ethical and moral obligations of being in a sexual relationship. Annakin might have done better in that regard. Even Vito Corleone in the Godfather films is better at that than Superman in SR.

Those are really just different aspects of one's character. And are not mutually exclusive of one another, but IMO, and my experience with the Superman character, he would be consistent in both his public and private life, he would be cognisant of his moral and ethical obligations were he to be involved in a sexual relationship. SR did not portray this, it portrayed the exact opposite, hence, that makes the characterization of Superman in SR wrong for me.

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