The Statement made by Civil War about USA?

[Xofenroht]

The more I sit back and try to process everything Marvel said by publishing Civil War (and the more my professor makes us "interpret" paintings) I can't help but come back to what I believe the message was that Civil War was meant to send to readers. Of course, literary messages are often left open to interpretation, but the death of Captain America made a huge statement about the state of the country today.

So, what did you all really get out of it? I'm not asking about comments on mischaracterization or how dumb you thought it was to have Peter reveal his identity to the world. All personal feelings about Marvel Comics Superheroes aside...

What message do you think Marvel's "Civil War" was trying to send?

Personally, I think it was saying that true American values and morals are being lost in the favor of capitalist/consumer culture. The death of "Captain America" is important, because it symbolises the death of a respectable United States of America...the one last seen fighting in WW2 (from an outside perspective, maybe).

What about you guys?

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by Xofenroht

The more I sit back and try to process everything Marvel said by publishing Civil War (and the more my professor makes us "interpret" paintings) I can't help but come back to what I believe the message was that Civil War was meant to send to readers. Of course, literary messages are often left open to interpretation, but the death of Captain America made a huge statement about the state of the country today.

So, what did you all really get out of it? I'm not asking about comments on mischaracterization or how dumb you thought it was to have Peter reveal his identity to the world. All personal feelings about Marvel Comics Superheroes aside...

What message do you think Marvel's "Civil War" was trying to send?

Personally, I think it was saying that true American values and morals are being lost in the favor of capitalist/consumer culture. The death of "Captain America" is important, because it symbolises the death of a respectable United States of America...the one last seen fighting in WW2 (from an outside perspective, maybe).

What about you guys?

There are a lot of small messages in various issues, and the fact that numerous artists and writers worked on it means that numerous messages cae through. But ultimately, I think you're right.

Also, I think the death of Captain America alone, regardless of context, is Marvel saying that the real America, the old fashioned, noble, heroic America, is dead.

[Kitsune]

The message is "We can make drastic determinant changes to the characters even though you know we will have the Scarlet Witch sneeze and change it back some years from now"

[Xofenroht]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

The message is "We can make drastic determinant changes to the characters even though you know we will have the Scarlet Witch sneeze and change it back some years from now"

That's why you're irrelevent.

[Upset Spideyfan]

The message is blatantly obvious.

Marvel's saying that Americans have traded freedom for security in the wake of 9/11.

That's all.

As for Cap's death: "I think it was saying that true American values and morals are being lost in the favor of capitalist/consumer culture".

Where are you getting this capitalist/consumer culture angle from? I don't think there's anything in the story to suggest such an interpretation.

And if that was the case, then Marvel would be incredibly hypocritical delivering such a message since this is the same capitalist/consumer culture that allows them to make money in the first place.

[hippie_hunter]

I don't think it was Marvel's way of saying that American's have traded freedom for security in the wake of 9/11, it was Mark Millar's way of saying it.

[Xofenroht]

Originally Posted by Upset Spideyfan

Where are you getting this capitalist/consumer culture angle from? I don't think there's anything in the story to suggest such an interpretation.
.

Because of Tony Stark and what he does and the argument made against Cap to suggest that he's "out of touch". That's where my angle is coming from.

[Upset Spideyfan]

Originally Posted by Xofenroht

Because of Tony Stark and what he does and the argument made against Cap to suggest that he's "out of touch". That's where my angle is coming from.

Hmm, I understand where you're coming from but I think Tony was designed to represent the angle of "security" more than he was "capitalism".

The idea of Cap's death is supposed to be the death of freedom giving way to security.

Again, I see how you can reach that conclusion, but with Millar writing Civil War as = post 9/11 America, Tony as the capitalist doesn't quite fit. His out of touch comments fit the mold of freedom vs. security.

[Xofenroht]

Originally Posted by Upset Spideyfan

Hmm, I understand where you're coming from but I think Tony was designed to represent the angle of "security" more than he was "capitalism".

The idea of Cap's death is supposed to be the death of freedom giving way to security.

Again, I see how you can reach that conclusion, but with Millar writing Civil War as = post 9/11 America, Tony as the capitalist doesn't quite fit. His out of touch comments fit the mold of freedom vs. security.

I understand and am fairly certain I'm just being biased (with my previous argument, before the one about "irrelevence").

[Upset Spideyfan]

Ya know, I was just looking back at my post and realized I put security and capitalism in quotations for no reason.

[Max Shrek]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

I don't think it was Marvel's way of saying that American's have traded freedom for security in the wake of 9/11, it was Mark Millar's way of saying it.

Mark Millar, Brian Michael Bendis and Joey Q ARE Marvel.

[Xofenroht]

Hahaha, it sounded perfectly reasonable to me. At least in this context (wink wink).

[LouFerignoDemon]

Originally Posted by Upset Spideyfan

The message is blatantly obvious.

Marvel's saying that Americans have traded freedom for security in the wake of 9/11.

That's all.

As for Cap's death: "I think it was saying that true American values and morals are being lost in the favor of capitalist/consumer culture".

Where are you getting this capitalist/consumer culture angle from? I don't think there's anything in the story to suggest such an interpretation.

And if that was the case, then Marvel would be incredibly hypocritical delivering such a message since this is the same capitalist/consumer culture that allows them to make money in the first place.

Nobody lost freedoms in terms of the public. The message was more of a "serious" future, rather than a laid back past. I can agree with the moral v. capitalism on a personal level. But in all truth, the morals that existed back then still exist in America, but when you're in the present, looking outward from the center, it's harder to see. That's why it's so easy to see things from the future, when everything's been labeled for you.

And no company should ever be bound by their own methods to say something else. Like I said, morals still exist like they did back then, you just can't see them as easily.

Originally Posted by Xofenroht

Because of Tony Stark and what he does and the argument made against Cap to suggest that he's "out of touch". That's where my angle is coming from.

While the argument that Sally Floyd made was fairly poorly made (though vastly accurate in some terms), the ones made by both her and Tony Stark are as relevant as the one originally made by Cap. Both adressed serious problems. We view Cap as some moral core that has everything under control for his own means by coming from a moral time. A time where people thought it was perfectly okay to line up boats to be bombed. Tony is playing the more "prepared" angle of the "future", where people tend to always look forward, where Cap plays the "now" that was more prevalent in the "past", where people didn't really live for the day, but were more worried about in day to day life, where Tony is more worried about what's on the horizon.

[CaptainStacy]

Originally Posted by Mistress Gluon

Nobody lost freedoms in terms of the public. The message was more of a "serious" future, rather than a laid back past. I can agree with the moral v. capitalism on a personal level. But in all truth, the morals that existed back then still exist in America, but when you're in the present, looking outward from the center, it's harder to see. That's why it's so easy to see things from the future, when everything's been labeled for you.

And no company should ever be bound by their own methods to say something else. Like I said, morals still exist like they did back then, you just can't see them as easily.



While the argument that Sally Floyd made was fairly poorly made (though vastly accurate in some terms), the ones made by both her and Tony Stark are as relevant as the one originally made by Cap. Both adressed serious problems. We view Cap as some moral core that has everything under control for his own means by coming from a moral time. A time where people thought it was perfectly okay to line up boats to be bombed. Tony is playing the more "prepared" angle of the "future", where people tend to always look forward, where Cap plays the "now" that was more prevalent in the "past", where people didn't really live for the day, but were more worried about in day to day life, where Tony is more worried about what's on the horizon.

Agreed.

[Sloth7d]

I think the message was, humans are idiots. Any living, breathing thing that may function slightly different from them will scare them, thus causing them to want to kill said thing or enslave it. And in the latters case, they will enslave it despite if enslaving it will really change anything, which it hasn't.

Another message is the opinions of people who watch a youtube video or message on a myspace outweigh the veiws of an Amercian hero who defended this country with his life in WWII. But whatever.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Xofenroht

That's why you're irreverent.

Corrected

[Darthphere]

Communism good, democracy bad.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Communism good, democracy bad.

Yep, it worked so well for Russia and look at the wonders socialism has done for the French economy.

[Xofenroht]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Yep, it worked so well for Russia and look at the wonders socialism has done for the French economy.

Nice quote.

[PhotoJones]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Yep, it worked so well for Russia and look at the wonders socialism has done for the French economy.

Eh...the French are doing fine. Besides, their health care system is the best in the world. Whatever they're doing, it's working.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by photojones2

Eh...the French are doing fine. Besides, their health care system is the best in the world. Whatever they're doing, it's working.

So the Highest unemployment in Europe is good (17.20%) ? Young people rioting on the streets because they can't find jobs is fine?

[Darthphere]

Ah, Civil War and politics.

[PhotoJones]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

So the Highest unemployment in Europe is good (17.20%) ? Young people rioting on the streets because they can't find jobs is fine?

17.20%? Where'd you get that number from?

Last time I checked (which was about three seconds ago), it was around 8.7% as of December 2006. Granted, that's a little less than twice what ours is, but it doesn't have anything to do with the structure of the government.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by photojones2

17.20%? Where'd you get that number from?

Last time I checked (which was about three seconds ago), it was around 8.7% as of December 2006. Granted, that's a little less than twice what ours is, but it doesn't have anything to do with the structure of the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mployment_rate

Sorry I was looking at the flag... 17.20 was New Caladonia. 8.7% is correct, and still pretty bad. Bad enough that a conservative was recently elected to lead the country.

[PhotoJones]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mployment_rate

Sorry I was looking at the flag... 17.20 was New Caladonia. 8.7% is correct, and still pretty bad. Bad enough that a conservative was recently elected to lead the country.

Conservative/Liberal leaders go in cycles. If there's not enough change, or the kind of change the people want, they elect the other side. Then the whole process repeats itself. In time, the American people will be fed up with a Democrat controlled Congress, and they'll elect the Republicans again.

Like I said, France has the best health care system in the world. If our government wasn't baught and paid for by huge drug companies, we would do well to adopt it.