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Old 06-10-2007, 02:32 PM   #76
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

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But the plan doesn't make sense. What good is having land if you wipe out your biggest market and in effect destroy the world's economy? He said at numerous points that he wanted to sell the land to the highest bidder, but with what? If he wipes out America he wipes out the economy. And isn't it a bit naive to think people will buy land on a rock that looks like it will be uninhabitable for the next 50 thousand years from the guy who destroyed America?
'Cos he's a villain and wanted revenge. It's a comic book film. The villains usually threaten the U.S. whether it makes sense in real life or not. Usually not.

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Old 06-10-2007, 02:36 PM   #77
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'Cos he's a villain and wanted revenge. It's a comic book film. The villains usually threaten the U.S. whether it makes sense in real life or not. Usually not.

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That is pretty weak. It is a plot hole. Plain and simple. For it to work, we need to understand the villian's motives. We can assume its revenge but the film never said he wanted revenge (on anyone but Superman). Therefore we can only go based on what Lex said (He wanted to make money) and it isn't exactly an intelligent way to make cash.

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Old 06-10-2007, 02:45 PM   #78
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That is pretty weak. It is a plot hole. Plain and simple. For it to work, we need to understand the villian's motives. We can assume its revenge but the film never said he wanted revenge (on anyone but Superman). Therefore we can only go based on what Lex said (He wanted to make money) and it isn't exactly an intelligent way to make cash.
We do? Then explain to me the motives of the Green Goblin to recruit Spider-Man and how it made sense? As well as Dock Ock and redoing a failed experiment that could destroy New York? And how is destroying a large segment of the population a good idea in "X-Men 2"? I doubt it'd be helpful to the economy as there'd be less consumers not to mention tax payers to fund those secret world destroying schemes.

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Old 06-10-2007, 03:21 PM   #79
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We do? Then explain to me the motives of the Green Goblin to recruit Spider-Man and how it made sense? As well as Dock Ock and redoing a failed experiment that could destroy New York? And how is destroying a large segment of the population a good idea in "X-Men 2"? I doubt it'd be helpful to the economy as there'd be less consumers not to mention tax payers to fund those secret world destroying schemes.

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You're not considering the motivations of each character.

Norman Osborne - Aside from the fact that he was insane from the Goblin formula, it was made very clear throughout the movie that he saw Peter as the son he wanted Harry to be.

Doctor Octopus - His ego was well established early in the movie, he did not believe his experiment could have failed. Therefore he was doing it again to prove he was right

X-2 - Are you talking about Magneto's plot? He could care less about the economy. He cared about wiping out the human race and vice versa with Stryker.

Lex on the otherhand was established to be doing his plot to make money. That is why it falls through.

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Old 06-10-2007, 03:24 PM   #80
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'Cos he's a villain and wanted revenge. It's a comic book film. The villains usually threaten the U.S. whether it makes sense in real life or not. Usually not.

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He wanted revenge and then to sell land to the very people he wiped out. And get rich on destroyed currency. It was a stupid plan.

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Old 06-10-2007, 03:46 PM   #81
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He could make weapons later? 'Cos he implied he would. I guess destroying North America is nothing nor the damage to the other 3 continents.

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Why not make the weapons right away and take over the world? That makes way more sense than what we got. Lex's plan was crap, it was only plot induced stupidity that the US military didn't try to carpet bomb nK to try and stop it, while Lex was in a cave smoking a cigar.

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Old 06-10-2007, 03:51 PM   #82
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

I didn't like the use of "land" again for Luthors plot to take over. It's time for something a little more fresh. Returns did have the potential to make Superman huge again, but certain aspects of the film possibly shut some viewers off. I noticed today in watching Returns that there are some true iconic images from the Superman mythos; Action Comics #1 reference, him catching the globe, hovering in space. I think most people wanted Superman to be in some sort of physical battle as opposed to lifting things and not even getting much dialouge with Luthor.

I still enjoy Returns very much though, and I just want them to improve on some of the things that missed the mark. A little more action with a villain he can truely have fist to fist combat with. Keep the story fresh as well, and don't rely TOO much on the action, a good story along with fantastic action is the key.

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Old 06-10-2007, 04:00 PM   #83
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

I think we need both some action and "badass" moments from Supes in order for him to be "popular" and "cool" in todays market.

I mean, here we have Superman Returns, the first Superman movie in decades, during the age of CGI, where with enough money and time, one could create the most epic action sequences for the character. But what do we get? Superman versus a big f**king rock.

As for badass moments, they should show the audience that he isn't just an easy-going boy-scout. Superman, because of how he was raised, thinks and feels just like a human being. He can get angry, and when he does, he brings out the strength of a god. He should be a shining symbol of hope, but hope that can fight.

So, hopefully, we'll have Superman up against a huge enemy that he can get in a physical fight with, and not another big f**king rock from one of Luthor's retarded schemes.

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Old 06-10-2007, 04:12 PM   #84
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

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But the plan doesn't make sense. What good is having land if you wipe out your biggest market and in effect destroy the world's economy? He said at numerous points that he wanted to sell the land to the highest bidder, but with what? If he wipes out America he wipes out the economy. And isn't it a bit naive to think people will buy land on a rock that looks like it will be uninhabitable for the next 50 thousand years from the guy who destroyed America?
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He wanted revenge and then to sell land to the very people he wiped out. And get rich on destroyed currency. It was a stupid plan.
the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right?

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part

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Old 06-10-2007, 04:17 PM   #85
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

don't make him so serious this time around... I think that would help out a lot.

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Old 06-10-2007, 04:38 PM   #86
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

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the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right?

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part
Agreed.

What few survivors were left on North America would become slave labor on Lex's Continenant. Most of Eastern Europe would also be destroyed.....so the people with money would be from Asia and the Middle East. Lex planned on using the crystal to get Kryptonian technology too. His main mistake was in underestimating the amount of time it would take for the conversion to occurr.

Basicly you can say that Lex is insane in one way or the other. He has no regret or feeling of remorse for attempting to kill billions of people....he has a combination God Envy/God Complex going on simultaniously......that makes for a dangerous unstable person.

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Old 06-10-2007, 05:21 PM   #87
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the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right?

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part
Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the Chinese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Also destorying the uS would have ruined the world economy, so no one would be in a position to buy anything.

Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep? This plan was just stupid, plain and simple.


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Old 06-10-2007, 05:26 PM   #88
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Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the C|hninese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep?
Lex expected to get Kryptonian technology from the remaining crystals...thus, having alien weaponry to fight off anyone that came after him (he just took his own sweet time about accessing it)......cause, you know, he's nurtz...

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Old 06-10-2007, 05:48 PM   #89
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Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the Chinese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Also destorying the uS would have ruined the world economy, so no one would be in a position to buy anything.

Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep? This plan was just stupid, plain and simple.
yes the Chinese could kill him and steal the land, but they wouldnt have a clue what to do with it, since Lex has all the know how on Kryptonian stuff. it would be more profitable to have him live and do biz with him and make him an ally, at least long enough until their own scientists understand the Kryptonian technology well enough to do away with Lex. and what are the chances of Lex letting that happen?

there's always a possibility of an uprising from forced labour, but by the time that they could get organized enough to cause trouble, Lex would at least have some basic knowledge on how to weaponize Kryptonian tech, which at its most basic form is still lightyears ahead of any Human technology. he would be unbeatable.

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Basicly you can say that Lex is insane in one way or the other. He has no regret or feeling of remorse for attempting to kill billions of people....he has a combination God Envy/God Complex going on simultaniously......that makes for a dangerous unstable person.
exactly, that i think is what makes Lex as dangerous, if not more so, than the Joker. he strives to make himself unto a God, the scary thing about him is that he has the intelligence and the resourcefulness to make it happen

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Old 06-10-2007, 06:40 PM   #90
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the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right?

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part
And you do realize that he was expecting those very same people whose land he destoryed to buy into his grown land. That means Americans, Canadian's, Mexican's and part of the European's. Those are the currencies I was talking about would be devalued, and not just American's. If I had, I would have said "American money would not have been any good". Oh, also how was he supposed to defend all of those pissed off people who wants to kick his a$$ because he just destroyed their homes, lands and very ways of life.

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Old 06-10-2007, 06:42 PM   #91
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Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the Chinese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Also destorying the uS would have ruined the world economy, so no one would be in a position to buy anything.

Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep? This plan was just stupid, plain and simple.
I was just about to say this.

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Old 06-10-2007, 06:59 PM   #92
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

Speaking of weaponized Kryptonian Technology... does anyone else feel as I do, that Singer kind of missed the boat on this one. Wouldn't it have been nice to at least show us some of that technology after Luthor has acquired it.

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Old 06-10-2007, 07:07 PM   #93
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Speaking of weaponized Kryptonian Technology... does anyone else feel as I do, that Singer kind of missed the boat on this one. Wouldn't it have been nice to at least show us some of that technology after Luthor has acquired it.
Like I said....Lex miscalculated....he should have tried to access the weaponry before the land making....but as I also said....Lex is NURTZ.

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Old 06-10-2007, 07:52 PM   #94
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Lex expected to get Kryptonian technology from the remaining crystals...thus, having alien weaponry to fight off anyone that came after him (he just took his own sweet time about accessing it)......cause, you know, he's nurtz...
No he is stupid, if he was nuts he would have made the weapons right away and blasted stuff at random, but since he is a moron instead, he sat around and just waited for a counter attack to happen. Seriously if profit was Lex's motive this the worst plan he could have come up with. Joker in the 89 flim seemed geniuely insane and seemed more interested in killing people than making a profit. You never get that sense with Lex, you feel he is stupid instead. Besides Lex is supposed to be a Lawful Evil villain, not a Choatic Evil character. He should have used this tech to corrupt society, not destroy it. The whole thing made him a lame villain.

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yes the Chinese could kill him and steal the land, but they wouldnt have a clue what to do with it, since Lex has all the know how on Kryptonian stuff. it would be more profitable to have him live and do biz with him and make him an ally, at least long enough until their own scientists understand the Kryptonian technology well enough to do away with Lex. and what are the chances of Lex letting that happen?

there's always a possibility of an uprising from forced labour, but by the time that they could get organized enough to cause trouble, Lex would at least have some basic knowledge on how to weaponize Kryptonian tech, which at its most basic form is still lightyears ahead of any Human technology. he would be unbeatable.
How you do know that? We never see the tech in action, so how are supposed to judge its effectivness? Also if the Chinese didn't decide to do a direct attack? What if they sent assassins to NK, kidnap Lex in his sleep and torture the info they want out of him, then kill him? How do you this tech would have pervented the Chinese from doing that? You don't, because this tech was a vague, bad plot point. Besides how is anyone supposed to buy anything from lex after he ruined the world economy, after the destruction of the uS, every world currency would go into free fall. There are so many holes in this scheme.

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exactly, that i think is what makes Lex as dangerous, if not more so, than the Joker. he strives to make himself unto a God, the scary thing about him is that he has the intelligence and the resourcefulness to make it happen
No, if Lex had actually made those weapons, he would have been a god, sitting around in cave, smoking a cigar, not making those weapons, would have made him a dead duck because a military counter attack, if Superman hadn't foiled him first.


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Old 06-10-2007, 09:02 PM   #95
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

The Lex in Superman Returns is supposed to have the intelligence and resourcefulness to achieve God like status, yet the best scheme he can muster to amass wealth is to marry an old bag of bones? Yeah, that's overwhelmingly more savvy and intelligent than establishing major professional and financial ties with corporate, scientific and political leaders to support a mega corporation that develops advanced defense technologies.

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Old 06-10-2007, 09:33 PM   #96
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Default Re: How can Superman become the icon again?

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The Lex in Superman Returns is supposed to have the intelligence and resourcefulness to achieve God like status, yet the best scheme he can muster to amass wealth is to marry an old bag of bones? Yeah, that's overwhelmingly more savvy and intelligent than establishing major professional and financial ties with corporate, scientific and political leaders to support a mega corporation that develops advanced defense technologies.
I think if he's starting from scratch, the fastest way is the old lady. Faster than having to win the trust of so many wealthy people with his resumee.

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Old 06-10-2007, 09:34 PM   #97
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I didn't mind him swindling the old lady, it didn't play that much into the story except at the beginning.

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Old 06-10-2007, 09:53 PM   #98
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I think if he's starting from scratch, the fastest way is the old lady. Faster than having to win the trust of so many wealthy people with his resumee.
I can see your point. But I'm going to have a serious gripe if the sequel features Lex, but doesn't include 1) Lex establishing influential relationships in the scientific, political and/or corporate community and 2) the smallest hint of Lexcorp (even a mention of the word would be satisfying)

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Old 06-10-2007, 10:00 PM   #99
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Well, Corp Lex is so much better than campy Lex. Campy Lex had its time and worked in it. But Corp Lex... no question here. Where do I sign?

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Old 06-10-2007, 10:03 PM   #100
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With blood on parchment.

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