The Official Budget & Box Office Thread

[dpm07]

Originally Posted by Visionary

I'm telling you a Superman movie could be a massive hit, and incredibly entertaining. Singer really is the hold back, because of his love for connecting the Donner film to his own--and that kid. I don't think Brainiac or Bizarro are good enough to light a big enough spark under Supes' franchise like Darkseid or Doomsday--whom are Superman's VENOM and SILVER SURFER. Darkseid should come first, the movie would practically write itself.

I think Brainiac would do well. I'd save someone like Darkseid or Mongul for a third film. One thing that may have a bearing with Brainiac is the version that would be used. Many people I've talked to would prefer the STAS version, but I can't see Singer doing anything remotely connected to what Dini or Timm did with that version of Brainiac. Brainiac actually has the ability to go head to head with Superman.

Singer seems to have a habit of trivializing the efforts of the DCAU creators and most notably STAS by glossing over it in Look, Up in the Sky: The Amazing Story of Superman.

In Singer's mind, if it didn't happen in the Donnerverse or is not connected, then it can't happen. Hence, Singer's limited knowledge of perusing through the comic source material, and the one thing he did go through was the villain Bizarro (which he likes). I personally don't feel Bizarro would play out well in a modern-day Superman film.

[LordJK]

Originally Posted by dpm07

I think Brainiac would do well. I'd save someone like Darkseid or Mongul for a third film. One thing that may have a bearing with Brainiac is the version that would be used. Many people I've talked to would prefer the STAS version, but I can't see Singer doing anything remotely connected to what Dini or Timm did with that version of Brainiac. Brainiac actually has the ability to go head to head with Superman.

Singer seems to have a habit of trivializing the efforts of the DCAU creators and most notably STAS by glossing over it in Look, Up in the Sky: The Amazing Story of Superman.

In Singer's mind, if it didn't happen in the Donnerverse or is not connected, then it can't happen. Hence, Singer's limited knowledge of perusing through the comic source material, and the one thing he did go through was the villain Bizarro (which he likes). I personally don't feel Bizarro would play out well in a modern-day Superman film.

You know, just because he isn't using STAS as inspiration, doesn't make hiim wrong.

[Jimmy, GL]

Originally Posted by LordJK

You know, just because he isn't using STAS as inspiration, doesn't make hiim wrong.

That's not dpm is saying. What dpm is saying is that Singer completely left out STAS and the whole cartoon part of Superman in his interview. That's all.

[Showtime]

I am not a big fan of using STAS as a backdrop for a Superman movie, or any of those theories, but not to look at STAS for a Brainiac reference doesn't make sense. I would imagine Singer would be encouraged to refernce all incarnations in coming up with a model for Braniac.

[LordJK]

Originally Posted by Jimmy, GL

That's not dpm is saying. What dpm is saying is that Singer completely left out STAS and the whole cartoon part of Superman in his interview. That's all.

That's not what i'm seeing. He claims Singer has "limited knowledge" of Superman because he isn't using STAS as inspiration.

[LordJK]

Originally Posted by Showtime029

I am not a big fan of using STAS as a backdrop for a Superman movie, or any of those theories, but not to look at STAS for a Brainiac reference doesn't make sense. I would imagine Singer would be encouraged to refernce all incarnations in coming up with a model for Braniac.

And then Singer will come up with his own interpretation based on what he views is best, and I bet it won't make everyone happy. Singer always uses his own ideas, which is bad for the fans who demand he use their interpretations.

[dpm07]

Originally Posted by LordJK

That's not what i'm seeing. He claims Singer has "limited knowledge" of Superman because he isn't using STAS as inspiration.

It's ok. I forgive you for not understanding what I am trying to say. Basically, what I am saying is that Singer has limited knowledge. However, it's not only because of STAS, but STAS is one of the reasons.

Furthermore, Singer really did trivialize the work of the DCAU by glossing over it in his documentary. It is bizarre because that is an aspect of Superman that is considered very well presented, and very adult-themed. One of the sucesses of the DCAU is the fact that it was adult-themed, and delivered some of the best Superman stories ever. Especially with the Darkseid arc, the Supergirl delivery, and also other stories.

One of the reasons Raimi has been so successful with Spiderman is because he respects all aspects of the character and its incarnations. He is not blindly fanatical to one aspect of the character, as Singer is with the Donner film. Raimi is also open to listening to the fans. He's gone on record as not caring initially for the Venom character, but he knows the fans wanted it, so he did it. Singer made a boring lacluster film bereft of much action that should have been implemented and would have been incorporated successfully with today's technology. He did not do this, and instead gave us a souped up Lex Land scheme and Superson.

[LordJK]

Originally Posted by dpm07

It's ok. I forgive you for not understanding what I am trying to say. Basically, what I am saying is that Singer has limited knowledge. However, it's not only because of STAS, but STAS is one of the reasons.

It's hilarious imagining you say "limited knowledge" in the STAS Braniac voice.

Furthermore, Singer really did trivialize the work of the DCAU by glossing over it in his documentary. It is bizarre because that is an aspect of Superman that is considered very well presented, and very adult-themed. One of the sucesses of the DCAU is the fact that it was adult-themed, and delivered some of the best Superman stories ever. Especially with the Darkseid arc, the Supergirl delivery, and also other stories.

Okay, so he doesn't like STAS, why is that necessarily a bad thing? There are many other interpretations of Superman that are also good.

One of the reasons Raimi has been so successful with Spiderman is because he respects all aspects of the character and its incarnations.

You know this for a fact? This is the guy that changed Doc Ock into a nice guy controlled by evil tentacles.

He is not blindly fanatical to one aspect of the character, as Singer is with the Donner film.

So how do you know Singer is fanatical about the Donner film? Because it is his favourite interpretation? I could call you fanatical about STAS, based on how much you talk about it.

Raimi is also open to listening to the fans. He's gone on record as not caring initially for the Venom character, but he knows the fans wanted it, so he did it.

Uh huh, yeah, he put him in Spider-Man 3 for the last 10 minutes. He also said "Venom is for squares".

Singer made a boring lacluster film bereft of much action that should have been implemented and would have been incorporated successfully with today's technology.

Your opinion, not fact.

He did not do this, and instead gave us a souped up Lex Land scheme and Superson.

And that is worse than doing a STAS remake.. how?

[griffolyon12]

I think the main reason there has been more interest in like Spider-man and X-Men is because they started this generation of superhero movies,and in this time of multiple superhero films many of the casual audience pick and choose the ones they want to see.Superman has tons of competition(which neither it nor Batman had back when they were done in the 70s,80s,and 90s).Most people choose to see Spider-man and X-men because they are on sequels and they are what started this whole phase of Superhero films.As much I love the DC films they have lost this round,they have just came into the game too late,but in about ten or so years Marvel and DC will be back and will be redoing their franchises once more(if history is any indication,they won't keep their big moneymakers out of circulation that long).And when they redo them,I think Superman will start off with a complete reboot,maybe not the origin story but a new art style and is in no way connected to Donner's film except maybe the theme song.But to the point if DC will just introduce its heavy hitters early in the next wave of superhero films in about ten or so years they will get just as good of Box Office results as Spider-man and X-men.Although I don't think Superman or Batman will bring in huge B.O. numbers,like X-men or Spider-man,in this wave of superhero films,they'll bring in enough money to give us some good high quality sequels.

[lexlives]

Originally Posted by griffolyon12

I think the main reason there has been more interest in like Spider-man and X-Men is because they started this generation of superhero movies,and in this time of multiple superhero films many of the casual audience pick and choose the ones they want to see.Superman has tons of competition(which neither it nor Batman had back when they were done in the 70s,80s,and 90s).Most people choose to see Spider-man and X-men because they are on sequels and they are what started this whole phase of Superhero films.As much I love the DC films they have lost this round,they have just came into the game too late,but in about ten or so years Marvel and DC will be back and will be redoing their franchises once more(if history is any indication,they won't keep their big moneymakers out of circulation that long).And when they redo them,I think Superman will start off with a complete reboot,maybe not the origin but a new style and is in no way connected to Donner's film except maybe the theme song.But to the point if DC will just its heavy hitters early in the next wave of superhero films in about ten or so years they will get just as good of Box Office results as Spider-man and X-men.Although I don't think Superman or Batman will bring in huge B.O. numbers they'll bring in enough money to give us some good high quality sequels.

This is a good point.

SR/Singer aside, Superman does need a makeover.

Singer went with a soft emotional Superman but for a character already seen as a "boy scout" and too white bread, Singer went south when he should have gone north.

Superman is not a killer but he needs more of an edge, a tough side. Temper the steel to make it stronger and more in your face. Don't make it softer - the WB suits were reportedly worried this new Superman was too soft just weeks before the premier. They were right of course.

This is why a re-boot/re-start is so critical. Forget Singer, even w/o him things have to change with the mythos or it will die sooner than later. Remember Mickey Mouse and Flash Gordon - right now the Superman franchise as a whole is on that path to irrelevancy.

This is why X-Men owned SR when it came to BO and DVD sales. Its not even that the general public dislikes Superman - worse they don't give a fig. The Bible says something about being lukewarm I am told.

You know where I see this problem? In the books. I no longer buy the regualr titles but do by the Elsewordls stuff like Lex Luthor MOS and All Star Superman. Great sories and with LLMOS great artwork. All Star good artwork except for the way they draw Superman.

But these stories should not be Elseworlds - they should be the regular titles IMO.

Something has to change and move things forward but SR just took a big step backwards. The Lex characterization - basically making him little more than a common criminal with campy associates - sorry, IMO that simply does not cut it.

[Showtime]

Originally Posted by lexlives

WB suits were reportedly worried this new Superman was too soft just weeks before the premier. They were right of course.

Where was this reported? Lexlives Weekly?

[lexlives]

Originally Posted by Showtime029

Where was this reported? Lexlives Weekly?

No, it was on the net out of Australia I beleive just 2 weeks or so before the premier. I will try to dig up a link.

[Showtime]

It's an official report or a rumor?

[lexlives]

Originally Posted by Showtime029

It's an official report or a rumor?

Like is anything offical? It was an Australian entertainmnt media source as I recall.

Remember when Singer returned to the US in fall 2005 for a wedding? Some sources like BT and SHP said it had nothing to do with the movie but others like DH said there were problems with a lack of action. I learned, maybe a little too late, to discount most of the BT reports and give more credence to the "negative" reports. The non semi-offical sites. Hindsight has proven me right on that. Yeah, I know, how sad is that. Like Moriarity's review early on of SR which was right on but ripped to shreds by BT and such. If a Superman site, semi-offical or not, is not looking out for Big Blue first then, IMHO, they are shills.

Do I think this report was true - you betcha. I think WB knew way before 06/06 that they had a major problem on their hands. Some speculate that is why this supposed huge year of Superman campaign never got under way. Maybe they knew they were throwing good money after bad.

[Showtime]

I am confused, why would Singer return to the states if the movie lacked action?

[dark_b]

Originally Posted by lexlives

No, it was on the net out of Australia I beleive just 2 weeks or so before the premier. I will try to dig up a link.

no you wont. you never do.

[Super Kal]

to answer the question:

I think he can... Bryan just really needs to make this more of a comic book movie instead of an all dead serious, murky realistic world. Super villains and an incredible storyline is a must.

[dark_b]

lexlives about smallville.
lexlives in hes element
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...ighlight=Gough

i just posted this guys so you can use this against lexlives. heheeh he is funny. lexlives you are making this world a better place.

[WormyT]

Originally Posted by lexlives

What I would give to be a fly on the wall of the WB boardroom right now!

LOL!!!

Those execs and board members have to be pi$$ed at Singerman.
I mean kids just avoided SR and the toys like cancer. Kids are still pumped up from Spidey 2. Now we have Spidey3, FF2 has that killer teaser. Superman was a chance for WB/DC to excite us and blow Marvels heros away with the real deal Alpha Super hero.
They have to be nervous. Maybe they are waiting to see how the new Hulk Reboot will do. If Casino Royale and batman Begins are any indication of something rebooted correctly I say they'll fire Singer, consult DC creaters/writers and consult people like Bruce Tim and set about re-charging this baby with something fresh, rich and mindblowing.
But we can only pray.

[dpm07]

Originally Posted by WormyT

LOL!!!

Those execs and board members have to be pi$$ed at Singerman.
I mean kids just avoided SR and the toys like cancer. Kids are still pumped up from Spidey 2. Now we have Spidey3, FF2 has that killer teaser. Superman was a chance for WB/DC to excite us and blow Marvels heros away with the real deal Alpha Super hero.
They have to be nervous. Maybe they are waiting to see how the new Hulk Reboot will do. If Casino Royale and batman Begins are any indication of something rebooted correctly I say they'll fire Singer, consult DC creaters/writers and consult people like Bruce Tim and set about re-charging this baby with something fresh, rich and mindblowing.
But we can only pray.

Believe me, I wish you were right, and you make a lot of sense. Sadly, I think they will stick with Singer. Nothing short of a retcon can wipe the travesty that he did.

I can't see any other director wanting the task of figuring out how to get rid of Jason. That was Singer's great idea, and Singer really did the film in such a way that it would be tough for another director to really change things short of a complete redo.

One of Singer's greatest travesties to this film was to make it a "chick" flick. Everyone I know was waiting for a great Superman film, and we received a film that was merely a regurgitated version of the original film albeit with a few new changes (none of which excited anyone I know), and a movie devoid of any real action that was reminiscent of some of the other great superhero films that have been out. People were simply bored with Singer's rendition.

Singer is a very good director who has made some good films in the past. However, his passion for Donner's film does not mean that he himself is a great choice for Superman. This was evident in the lack of interest or sales.

It's not the character's fault. The character can sell if you have a great story with a complement of action. Superman Returns failed in this department. By making his film so close to a film of the past, he basically illustrated how out of touch he was with the character in today's world and what would have worked.

[Showtime]

Originally Posted by dark_b

lexlives about smallville.
lexlives in hes element
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...ighlight=Gough

i just posted this guys so you can use this against lexlives. heheeh he is funny. lexlives you are making this world a better place.

He said that The Mountain was going to be WB's new big show and was a 7-8 year potential...


It lasted 13 episodes...

[Antonello Blueberry]

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...4&postcount=53

[Showtime]

Originally Posted by Antonello Blueberry

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...4&postcount=53

I guess it never ends...it's his "thang", it never ends.

[lexlives]

Originally Posted by WormyT

LOL!!!

Those execs and board members have to be pi$$ed at Singerman.
I mean kids just avoided SR and the toys like cancer. Kids are still pumped up from Spidey 2. Now we have Spidey3, FF2 has that killer teaser. Superman was a chance for WB/DC to excite us and blow Marvels heros away with the real deal Alpha Super hero.
They have to be nervous. Maybe they are waiting to see how the new Hulk Reboot will do. If Casino Royale and batman Begins are any indication of something rebooted correctly I say they'll fire Singer, consult DC creaters/writers and consult people like Bruce Tim and set about re-charging this baby with something fresh, rich and mindblowing.
But we can only pray.

For sure they can't be happy and if FF2 does huge - its a given Spiderman 3 will - they will certainly reevaluate. We have not heard a word from WB since October and the silence is telling.

From a business sense, it makes complete sense to delay any decision on whether to continue with the Superman franchise till a year from now. There is no need to rush for a 2009 release even if they give Singer a greenlight. After the Hulk reboot comes out in 2008 - remember, it "failed" in a very similar way to SR and that studio is doing everything to disassociate the new film from Ang's film.

This is a classic reboot and on short order - about 5 years.

At that point and seeing how TDK does too WB can make certainly a better and more informed decision on the franchise.

[Antonello Blueberry]

Originally Posted by lexlives

After the Hulk reboot comes out in 2008 - remember, it "failed" in a very similar way to SR and that studio is doing everything to disassociate the new film from Ang's film.

This is the proof you don't understand anything about Hollywood financing and politics.
Hulk made 150 million less than SR at the box office WW and they're still making a sequel.