Dream Team League Rankings

[X]

Originally Posted by wiegeabo

Being useless as an uber doesn't mean they shouldn't be an uber. And I respect that you love the guy, otherwise you wouldn't give such a damn about him.

But I could have sworn when he was given his powers in his first appearance back in the day (about the only Skrull I've read) the Skrull's not only made his Skrull powers more powerful, but made his F4 powers more powerful than the F4.

You're contradicting yourself.

If a character is that useless as an uber that it would be idiotic to place him against any single one, than he probably logically SHOULDN'T be an uber.

The Super Skrull had a high first appearance, as all villains do. He STILL didn't dominate or even beat the Fantastic Four.

As time went on I'm sure you've noticed his fall from grace.

[X]

Originally Posted by wiegeabo

I don't remember doing it. Nor did I give him a ranking. I was thinking tuber. Any type of 'unlimited' reality warping is tuber. I don't know if Pulse-8 has a range, but being able to rewrite a GL ring (which only tuber Guardian's should be able to do, and tuber Ion did once) should put someone over the top.

He's a normal human despite all that.

Mages bend reality, basically. That's what magic is, and Ellis wrote Dr. Strange exactly like he wrote the reality altering Doctor's.

It's one of those "daunting" powers, but there's a reason Pulse-8 was a MEMBER of the team that fought the JLA and not the only one.

[X]

Oh look I'm sticking up for Gog.

[wiegeabo]

Originally Posted by Dark Gog

Why don't we start with how powerful he was depicted as in the crossover?

Otherwise, MBs generally protect their users from more esoteric attacks, open Boom Tubes, heal (which takes time), and perform scans. And yes, sometimes they create technology. But they are by their very nature not given to the same unbalancing abuse of power we worry about here, and rarely take orders from their wielders unless forced to.

Tony in regular armor is a Mid. If it's just his regular armor with a Box, and the Box is limited to Tubes, healing, and scanning, he'd probably still be a reg. It wouldn't be much more than increasing those functions in his armor.

[Dark Gog]

Originally posted by Khellendros

How is Pulse-8 as powerful as The Doctor? I could understand him being Tubered, but I don't necessarily even see him as as powerful as Zatanna, let alone the Doc, and I wouldn't have personally been opposed to the latter's inclusion before reading some of the discussion about him here. And nevermind the fact people can just go "OMG Magic" when in doubt where those two are concerned.

[wiegeabo]

Originally Posted by X

Oh look I'm sticking up for Gog.

That just killed a kitten.

[X]

Originally Posted by Dark Gog

He is? I believe I am already on record vouching for the inclusion of even the Extremis armor as a middle-weight. I certainly don't view this version as any worse (or even more formidable) than Lightray or B417, and I'll remind you you've repeteadly argued 853rd century tech makes New Gods tech 'look like child's play'.

Other potential mids such as Ronan or Hiroim would probably be at-least on par.

Why don't we start with how powerful he was depicted as in the crossover?

Otherwise, MBs generally protect their users from more esoteric attacks, open Boom Tubes, heal (which takes time), and perform scans. And yes, sometimes they create technology. But they are by their very nature not given to the same unbalancing abuse of power we worry about here, and rarely take orders from their wielders unless forced to.

Mother Box's grant nearly Wolverine level regeneration (See Hunger Dogs) Manipulate gravity, complete control of technology (Apokolip's technology easily destroyed Amazo in Rock of Ages), telepathic communication, energy absortion, a durability boost...

[X]

Originally Posted by Dark Gog

Originally posted by Khellendros

How is Pulse-8 as powerful as The Doctor? I could understand him being Tubered, but I don't necessarily even see him as as powerful as Zatanna, let alone the Doc, and I wouldn't have personally been opposed to the latter's inclusion before reading some of the discussion about him here. And nevermind the fact people can just go "OMG Magic" when in doubt where those two are concerned.

People hear "reality warping" and **** their pants. Don't even question it.

Zatanna has manipulated the entire moon with a few words and frozen Despero.

The Doctor? The Doctor's frozen Mr. Majestic in place.

Their really ARE no damned differences between either but one uses MAGIC and the other WARPS REALITY.

Guess who we banned?

Yup. The Doctor.

[Dark Gog]

Originally Posted by X

Oh look I'm sticking up for Gog.

How is that remotely a bad thing? You'll go far in life if only you'd learn to pick the right side more often.

[X]

Don't tempt me tonight.

[The Leaguer]

I see X's argument as less, "Pulse-8 should be allowed, too," and more, "Dr. Strange should be banned, too."

[X]

You literally have zero impact on everything you complain about, Leaguer. It's like a retarded child flailing around as adults talk.

I don't know why you waste the effort of putting finger to keyboard if you're not going to do anything more than play semantic middleschool games.

[The Leaguer]

Don't be so afraid of me. Yes, I could ruin your s***, but you're not special in that regard. Calm down.

[wiegeabo]

Originally Posted by X

You're contradicting yourself.

If a character is that useless as an uber that it would be idiotic to place him against any single one, than he probably logically SHOULDN'T be an uber.

The Super Skrull had a high first appearance, as all villains do. He STILL didn't dominate or even beat the Fantastic Four.

As time went on I'm sure you've noticed his fall from grace.

Not really. Normal Magneto is obviously an uber. He has a lot of raw power, experience, and finesse. But compared to some of the other ubers in this thing, he's a useless pickup because they are either more powerful, or have a wider variety of powers.

More ubers may be able to beat Skrull than Magneto, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be an uber. There are probably a number of ubers he can defeat, but they're just as equally 'useless' to pick up or we haven't really explored them.


I'm starting to come around to Tim's idea of splitting the ubers into uber and suber.

[X]

The Silver Surfer has knocked out Ronan AND the Super Skrull with one punch each. ONE punch.

THAT is indicative of a massive, absurd power difference. That isn't skill, or finnese, or experience. That's a power deficit.

The Surfer would never, EVER dismiss Magneto like that.

Magneto's beaten the same Phoenix that casually beat Firelord.

Magneto's stalemated Cosmic Spider-Man.

A half powered Magneto has torn Apocalypse in half.

Magneto's thrashed extensive X-Men line-up's while the Super Skrull gets destroyed by the Invisible Woman alone.

The Super Skrull/Magneto comparisons as both being "weak" ubers is ridiculous.

[Khellendros]

Originally Posted by Dark Gog

Originally posted by Khellendros

How is Pulse-8 as powerful as The Doctor? I could understand him being Tubered, but I don't necessarily even see him as as powerful as Zatanna, let alone the Doc, and I wouldn't have personally been opposed to the latter's inclusion before reading some of the discussion about him here. And nevermind the fact people can just go "OMG Magic" when in doubt where those two are concerned.

How is that level of reality warping NOT at least in the neighborhood of the Doctor? I mean, did they EVER spell out any limits to his power? As in, there was soemthing too big or complex for him to handle it?

Originally Posted by X

People hear "reality warping" and **** their pants. Don't even question it.

Zatanna has manipulated the entire moon with a few words and frozen Despero.

The Doctor? The Doctor's frozen Mr. Majestic in place.

Their really ARE no damned differences between either but one uses MAGIC and the other WARPS REALITY.

Guess who we banned?

Yup. The Doctor.

Man, if you don't think there's no difference between the power levels of Zatanna and the Doctor, you must be drunk.

[Dark Gog]

Originally Posted by X

Mother Box's grant nearly Wolverine level regeneration (See Hunger Dogs) Manipulate gravity, complete control of technology (Apokolip's technology easily destroyed Amazo in Rock of Ages), telepathic communication, energy absortion, a durability boost...

Most of these things are, where not highly debatable in the first place, one-time feats or else subject to the MBs discretion, which again, is far from battle-oriented. Rather than relying on Hunger Dogs (which I believe even Walt Simonson has referred to as being flat-out out-of-continuity on Alvaro's), I'd sooner depend on JK4W, where healing Lightray from his fight with Kalibak took several minutes, and he was still weary afterwards. In lieu of basing sweeping statements regarding their performance against other forms of tech on an incident which apparently did not even involve them, simply read just about Orion's entire solo series to form a different picture, and let us not forget to mention a single GL Ring's complete domination over a Father-Box.

EIM already had many of these powers at more than competitive levels, including (as I've heard it, anyway) hacking into orbital satelites or Cloc, greater speed, an automatic healing factor, and the ability to heal others.

[X]

Originally Posted by Dark Gog

Most of these things are, where not highly debatable in the first place, one-time feats or else subject to the MBs discretion, which again, is far from battle-oriented. Rather than relying on Hunger Dogs (which I believe even Walt Simonson has referred to as being flat-out out-of-continuity on Alvaro's), I'd sooner depend on JK4W, where healing Lightray from his fight with Kalibak took several minutes, and he was still weary afterwards. In lieu of basing sweeping statements regarding their performance against other forms of tech on an incident which apparently did not even involve them, simply read just about Orion's entire solo series to form a different picture, and let us not forget to mention a single GL Ring's complete domination over a Father-Box.

EIM already had many of these powers at more than competitive levels, including (as I've heard it, anyway) hacking into orbital satelites or Cloc, greater speed, an automatic healing factor, and the ability to heal others.

So you're going to dismiss everything a fairly obscure piece of equipment HASN'T done a dozen times over?

It's not a GL ring. They haven't exactly had hundreds of issues to become fleshed out and repeat feats on every level.

If you want another example of them being extremely powerful, a mother box allowed Superman to actually survive against Doomsday for an extended amount of time.

Later, the same Doomsday was beating multiple top tiers, including Orion and J'onn, in under 60 seconds flat.

It obviously gave Superman, Superman a massive boost.

For a tech based character like Tony it's going to be extremely potent.

[X]

Originally Posted by Khellendros

Man, if you don't think there's no difference between the power levels of Zatanna and the Doctor, you must be drunk.

Yeah, you get back to me after you read some more Zatanna, Khell.

http://community.livejournal.com/sca...57.html#cutid1

[Khellendros]

So, X IS saying that Iron Man should be an uber? For what it's worth, I agree.

[Dark Gog]

Originally Posted by Khellendros

How is that level of reality warping NOT at least in the neighborhood of the Doctor? I mean, did they EVER spell out any limits to his power? As in, there was soemthing too big or complex for him to handle it?

I don't find it insignifcant to note that we've never seen him manipulate much more. I don't know, the incident that always stuck in my mind is just the scene where he manipulates the weight (or gravity) of falling team-mates for a short while.

But nothing he did is really remotely on the level of Zatanna countering wholesale reality manipulation by a higher being with a single sentence.

I guess I'll look into his older appearances.

[X]

And actually, I'd take Zatanna over most Doctor's.

You know... Being ineffective in combat, easily unnerved... Loose cannon drug addict who can't help the team sometimes if his life depended on it.

Against Zatanna. You know. Beats Despero with one word and all that good stuff, warped into destroyed cities back to perfect condition, manipulated souls, time manipulation.

[X]

Originally Posted by Khellendros

So, X IS saying that Iron Man should be an uber? For what it's worth, I agree.

Yeah, with a mother box, which could probably make a normal human into a middleweight.

[X]

And round and round it goes.

"That characters too uber!"

"Not really"

"Hah, Zatanna can't compare to the Doctor!"

"Er, she can and has, actually"

"Uh, one of your characters should get bumped up in rank!"

Finish one claim before the next accusation, maybe?

Oh, I can see this coming. "I actually just got sick of your pissing and moaning and gave up! Nah Naaaaah Nyah. Why do you always do this ****?"

[Dark Gog]

There's nothing obscure about Mother-Boxes, X. I give precedence for feats involving post-Crisis books and actual Mother-Boxes (as opposed to "Apokolips' technology"), yes. The point you continuously ignore, is that what a Mother-Box will do is not actually up to the user. They are not geared towards waging battle, and they tend to operate accordingly.

As far as one amping Superman against Doomsday, again, acutally creating weapons or armor for their wielder is an extremely uncharactaristic application of their abilities. (And let's try and remember Orion already has a Mother-Box. Obviously, it didn't aid him much there, so either Doomsday had evolved further by that point, or else the difference was always Superman.) If we continue to apply your logic, we must also find new brackets for Mister Miracle and Lightray. Except that MB's are simply not the Juggernauts you paint them as. Not even in the hands of tech-oriented characters.