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Old 11-07-2007, 12:05 AM   #51
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And round and round it goes.

"That characters too uber!"

"Not really"

"Hah, Zatanna can't compare to the Doctor!"

"Er, she can and has, actually"

"Uh, one of your characters should get bumped up in rank!"

Finish one claim before the next accusation, maybe?

Oh, I can see this coming. "I actually just got sick of your pissing and moaning and gave up! Nah Naaaaah Nyah. Why do you always do this ****?"
I'm actually going through the link you posted now. Anyways, I see a giant Zatanna fighting a giant wizard. Impressive, but am I understanding correctly that the giant Zatanna is actually the genie she talked about? Impressive, yes, especially if he gets successfully argued as standard equipment.

What else.. overcoming what is apparent reality manipulation with a spoken spell. Well, yeah, that's impressive. Hm. Y'know what? **** being mature. Screw your spitting at me after I ****ing agreed with you you *****y emo ****. Let me space that out so it doesn't censor: I said b i t c h y emo C U N T. Fine, Zatanna is Doctor level, Pulse-8 isn't tuber, whatever you smug piece of ****. Jesus, you suck so much god damn fun out of this with your constant wheedling. I'm done discussing uber vs tuber, it is turning us both into a couple of cranky *****es. And while I don't care about you, I'm sick of getting pissed about it. I'll see to my own team, you do whatever you want with yours.

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:10 AM   #52
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Should Karate Kid (the current pre-crisis one..) really be a Reg, by the way? It's not really that he's particularly hard to beat, but normal human or not, his strength, speed, and durability just seem a little closer to the Mid bracket.

On that note, what tier would Coldcast and Batman 1-Mill fall under? I'm a bit skeptical about it, but I've seen it argued elsewhere CC has normal durability and no real force-fields. Otherwise, he's clearly Mid or higher. I'll read-up on Bats 1-Mill if the general sentiment is he can pass as a Reg.

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:16 AM   #53
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Default Re: Dream Team League Rankings

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I'm actually going through the link you posted now. Anyways, I see a giant Zatanna fighting a giant wizard. Impressive, but am I understanding correctly that the giant Zatanna is actually the genie she talked about? Impressive, yes, especially if he gets successfully argued as standard equipment.

What else.. overcoming what is apparent reality manipulation with a spoken spell. Well, yeah, that's impressive. Hm. Y'know what? **** being mature. Screw your spitting at me after I ****ing agreed with you you *****y emo ****. Let me space that out so it doesn't censor: I said b i t c h y emo C U N T. Fine, Zatanna is Doctor level, Pulse-8 isn't tuber, whatever you smug piece of ****. Jesus, you suck so much god damn fun out of this with your constant wheedling. I'm done discussing uber vs tuber, it is turning us both into a couple of cranky *****es. And while I don't care about you, I'm sick of getting pissed about it. I'll see to my own team, you do whatever you want with yours.

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:17 AM   #54
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Default Re: Dream Team League Rankings

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Should Karate Kid (the current pre-crisis one..) really be a Reg, by the way? It's not really that he's particularly hard to beat, but normal human or not, his strength, speed, and durability just seem a little closer to the Mid bracket.

On that note, what tier would Coldcast and Batman 1-Mill fall under? I'm a bit skeptical about it, but I've seen it argued elsewhere CC has normal durability and no real force-fields. Otherwise, he's clearly Mid or higher. I'll read-up on Bats 1-Mill if the general sentiment is he can pass as a Reg.
Karate Kid's a normal human without any real superhuman powers, which makes him a regular. Similar uber skilled characters like Libra and Stick are also regulars. I had Val all the way back in season one.

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:20 AM   #55
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Stick is a Reg? Well ****, that changes things.

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:27 AM   #56
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There's nothing obscure about Mother-Boxes, X. I give precedence for feats involving post-Crisis books and actual Mother-Boxes (as opposed to "Apokolips' technology"), yes. The point you continuously ignore, is that what a Mother-Box will do is not actually up to the user. They are not geared towards waging battle, and they tend to operate accordingly.

As far as one amping Superman against Doomsday, again, acutally creating weapons or armor for their wielder is an extremely uncharactaristic application of their abilities. (And let's try and remember Orion already has a Mother-Box. Obviously, it didn't aid him much there, so either Doomsday had evolved further by that point, or else the difference was always Superman.) If we continue to apply your logic, we must also find new brackets for Mister Miracle and Lightray. Except that MB's are simply not the Juggernauts you paint them as. Not even in the hands of tech-oriented characters.
Neither Lightray or Mr. Miracle gain the cumulative benefits that Iron Man would gain from a mother box.

You WON'T be able to hijack or shut down his armor like Stonecutter and the Imus Champion have.

Iron Man's magnetic abilities are even FURTHER enhanced by the mother box.

His energy absortion, which can already redirect Herald level power, will go FAR beyond that.

His technology is going to be reinforced through and through. ****ing LIGHTRAY is not a tech based character and your assertion that Iron Man wouldn't benefit from a mother box extensively is insulting.

Barda and Orion walked into the JLA Watchtower and like maids with dusters they casually went over the place and upgraded every inch of it in moments, doing things that made Steel look inept as a child.

And if you once again want to bring up a mother box being brought into battle, look no further than your vaunted Orion series.

Guess who was made to get rid of his mother box because it made for a very large advantage over Darkseid?

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:29 AM   #57
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It's simple.

I fought and elaborated to no end (Like everyone faults me for doing) for Iron Man to just barely NOT be an uber.

And now you want to give him a technology based characters wet dream, which will increase his abilities across the board, and still get him as a middleweight?

And people are calling me on "milking" characters?

I can't even use all of Iron Man's armors. I'm restricted from the start with him.

But with a mother box...

Sure. Right.

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:58 AM   #58
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Default Re: Dream Team League Rankings

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Should Karate Kid (the current pre-crisis one..) really be a Reg, by the way? It's not really that he's particularly hard to beat, but normal human or not, his strength, speed, and durability just seem a little closer to the Mid bracket.

On that note, what tier would Coldcast and Batman 1-Mill fall under? I'm a bit skeptical about it, but I've seen it argued elsewhere CC has normal durability and no real force-fields. Otherwise, he's clearly Mid or higher. I'll read-up on Bats 1-Mill if the general sentiment is he can pass as a Reg.
Batman 1-Mil is a reg.

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Old 11-07-2007, 01:02 AM   #59
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Orion getting rid of his Mother-Box before going to face Darkseid had nothing to do with it being unbalancing. Darkseid's plot hinged around Orion being left vulnerable to corruption after "winning" Apokolips, and he correctly predicted casting MB aside would serve to tear-up their relationship. How he went about affecting this was by stipulating that their match would be strictly hand-to-hand.

MBs themselves have been hijacke by GLs before, as I keep telling you. Simply going by his description, I see no reason why Stonecutter at-least would be unable to repeat his performance against Stark, if he knew what he were up against. Being compromisable is not what established Iron Man as a Mid in the first place. Not to me, anyway.

Again, I've never considered normal Iron Man to be "just under" the Uber bar in the first place, and again I ask what he'd actually accomplished with it when he had it.

I certainly don't claim it wouldn't boost his performance, or I wouldn't want him to begin with, but the level to which his overall power would be boosted is very much up in the air. Considering I clearly have a much lower opinion of MBs than you do, I see nothing underhanded in arguing for his approval.

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Old 11-07-2007, 01:10 AM   #60
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It's a vulnerability that several characters could exploit in Iron Man. With a mother box, that's not longer the case, as New God's technology is good enough to be comparable to magic just as Stonecutter's "technology" was.

And on top of negating that vulnerability, you're taking away his limit on absorbing energy. He can absorb and redirect literal unlimited amounts of it now. Another weakness eliminated.

Orion took his mother box back immediately after his fight against Darkseid ended. Darkseid pointed to it in the beginning, having Orion discard it so their fight could purely be a physical one. Not having the mother box present for 15 minutes wasn't the largest factor of his corruption.

Do you honestly expect Iron Man would be shown doing everything possible with a mother box during the few pages he had it in a crowded crossover?

I once again fail to understand why you brought up Lightray. Tony Stark is a techological GENIUS of the highest order. I don't know why you're surprised that he'd be an utter beast with one, gaining far more from it than the casual uses that Lightray employs them for.

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Old 11-07-2007, 01:20 AM   #61
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X wants me to comment on the Super Skrull, and since I don't know the character well and haven't followed the debate about him, I'll just say he probably should be on the same level as Ronan, a character I know even less about.

He's probably no more powerful or formidable than characters like Lightray, although his inception into that tier may be seen as slightly unbalancing in terms of sheer brute power. I'd certainly want to hear nothing further against MB Iron Man, if Kl'rt were allowed.

The one thing about him which may genuinely prove unbalancing (other than anti-matter blasts?), is that he reportedly has now begun using shaped force-fields en-masse.


As far as power-copiers are concerned, again I view them as quite cheap, and potentially destabilizing, and again, whether they actually break any rules should probably depend on the individual in question, and more subject to their limits than their in-character performances. If the previous standard involved their capacity to mix and maintain powers successfully, then a character such as Black Alice still strikes me as straddling the line at best.

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Old 11-07-2007, 01:54 AM   #62
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It's a vulnerability that several characters could exploit in Iron Man. With a mother box, that's not longer the case, as New God's technology is good enough to be comparable to magic just as Stonecutter's "technology" was.

And on top of negating that vulnerability, you're taking away his limit on absorbing energy. He can absorb and redirect literal unlimited amounts of it now. Another weakness eliminated.
With time and the resources most teams have in this thing, I'd expect him to be able to achieve about as much without it. I honestly wouldn't expect it to boost those capabilities nearly as much as you suggest, but in this one aspect of their powers, I admittedly may not be as fully aware of what Mother Boxes have accomplished on their own as you are. (Of-course, if every MB in existence could affect this, then Darkseid's Omega Beams would be some of the least efficient weapons in existance, even before taking his recent indignities into account.)

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Orion took his mother box back immediately after his fight against Darkseid ended. Darkseid pointed to it in the beginning, having Orion discard it so their fight could purely be a physical one. Not having the mother box present for 15 minutes wasn't the largest factor of his corruption.
Again, I believe Darkseid's made his entire plan explicit somewhere down the line, and if not him in person, than Orion extrapolated it for him (possibly in Orion #21). Causing him to abandon Mother Box was just one step in his plan, and only a catalyst to their eventual alienation, without which he'd never have accepted Mortalla's Father-Box.

There really was little further to be gained by it. As you'll recall, Father Boxes had been introduced shortly afterwards, and Darkseid and other Apokolitians have made use of all sorts of personal equipment of their own over the years, as well as in that run. He could most certainly have relied on Orion's word further than his own not to wield it during battle.

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Do you honestly expect Iron Man would be shown doing everything possible with a mother box during the few pages he had it in a crowded crossover?
I'd expect any fundamantal power-boost to present itself within those pages, yes, and it is well worth noting even with the extra day(s, eventually) he's given here, Tony never had that much time to wring the most of it.

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I once again fail to understand why you brought up Lightray.
You do know Lightray's an inventor himself, right? He's done nothing i know of that would put him on par with Stark, but Scott Free most certainly has, and my innitial point was simply regarding the pile-on value of introducing such a device to tech-oriented characters.

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Old 11-07-2007, 01:55 AM   #63
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Past this point, I think I'll focus strictly on finishing my write-up at this time.

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Old 11-07-2007, 02:11 AM   #64
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The Omega Effect isn't exactly typical energy, Gog. You're basically listing one of the few kinds of energy a mother box couldn't manipulate, absorb or redirect.

As for Iron Man not wringing the most out of it... That's not exactly a limitation here in the DTL, is it? You can sit him down and devote him to using it completely in ways a crossover would never take the time to bother with.

Comparing Scott Free to Stark is flaky at best. Stark is fluent in as many different intellectual pursuits as anyone, where Free completely specializes in a singular field.

Even barring the intelligence/ingenuity gap between the two, Miracle has achieved some truly unbelievable things with New God's technology.

You are aware of Scott Free "breaking" the lock on the door to Heaven itself with his technology, right?

That's one of the most ridiculous feats in the history of comics.

Other New God's tech, the Genesis Box, recreated the entire universe in Rock of Ages.

And speaking of Rock of Ages...? Apokolip's shock troopers slapped a piece of technology on Amazo there and it destroyed him.

And yes, it's relative, because New Genesis and Apokolips are at the exact same level in regards to technology.

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Old 11-07-2007, 02:13 AM   #65
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What you really should do, looking at what you seem to want to do, is this.

Pick Up Barda with a Green Lantern ring, from Another Nail.

You get massive skill in Barda . You get the unbelievable power and variety of a Green Lantern ring. You get a mother box BONDED with a Green Lantern ring with the consciousness and skills of Scott Free inside the ring. "The ultimate tool and the ultimate weapon".

You know, the combination of characters that beat one of the most powerful incarnations of Darkseid that we've seen in decades.

Honestly, just drop Scott as a regular and do that. No debating or bickering needed.

It'd work, yes?

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Old 11-07-2007, 09:47 AM   #66
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Isn't each Mother Box specifically customized to the individual user? I could have sworn that Orion's MB did different things for its user than Lightray's did.


Anyway's, Tony with the Mother Box is sort of suffereing from our minimum exposure rule. Didn't he have the box for less than one issue? I mean, we all know what Tony and his 'normal' armor can do. We know what a Mother Box can do in general. But, other than a few extra abilities shown in the pages, we're not sure what the combination of the two can truly do. (Sort of like knowing what Validus can do, and what a GL ring does, but not sure how well Validus can use a GL ring.)


If Tony were limited to just those upgrades we actually saw (I think Gog said healing, scanning, and oner or two others), I think he'd still be a Mid.

If we're going to assume 'standard' Mother Box upgrades for all his systems, and determine it meets the minimum exposure rule, than I would think Tony would have to be an uber.

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:23 PM   #67
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I really don't see why Super Skrull is an uber. There really isn't an uber in this he can actually beat one on one.....

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Old 11-07-2007, 12:37 PM   #68
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Supposedly better-than-Invisible Woman level forcefields are the only reason Super Skrull ever was an uber. Other than that, he has a bunch of reg-level powers and strength roughly on par with the Thing. Plus we have an almost identical character who doesn't have forcefields (Skrullian Skymaster) as a medium.

Based on feats, Sue's fields look stronger. She's blocked a gamma bomb explosion, punched a hole in Galactus, etc. And beat the heck out of Super Skrull.

However, it has been said (I'm not sure by whom) that Super Skrull's powers are stronger -- and this claim also appears in most of the bios of Super Skrull.

If we all agree that Super Skrull's forcefields really aren't as powerful as Sue's, despite all the claims that they are more powerful, then I think you could get him as a high-end medium. If his forcefields are stronger than Sue, he should be low-end uber. She's a good medium with the forcefields alone.

I don't really care what people decide, but that's the question which should be the deciding factor.

And yes, he and Ronan are close enough in power to be ranked the same, whether as weak ubers or strong meds.

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:14 PM   #69
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Again, Sue's shields held up better against Thor than the Super Skrull's did, if you want a direct comparison.

They're willpower based. You'd be insane to believe Sue's wouldn't be stronger due to her greater experience with them, greater willpower and her creativity.

Another direct comparison.

Sue has been responsible for the Hulk being beaten in two seperate realities. Sue alone.

The Super Skrull... Stalemated the weaker Gray Hulk when he was in severe pain from having to fight in the daylight, his weakness.

Handbooks and bio's are routinely wrong and I'd say that's the case here.

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:34 PM   #70
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Skrull's not just limited to the F4 powers. He's also a shapeshifter and can hypnotize people. How does that factor into his ranking?

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:39 PM   #71
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His shapeshifting is made completely null and void by Reed's powers.

Not to mention that all Skrull's were locked into their shapes by that bomb explosion in the 90's, yes? I haven't seen the Super Skrull shapeshift since the Silver Age.

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:41 PM   #72
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Annnd his shapeshifting, even when he had it, was never a big part of his power-set.

Only things I ever saw him do with it were A) Looking like the Fantastic Four.

B) Making himself into a green ram. As in, a goat.

Lololololol.

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:43 PM   #73
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I see.

A green goat does sound suspiciously tuber...

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:48 PM   #74
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He whacked The Thing with his horns.

If you want to see actual scans, I can post his complete fights with Thor. Both of them.

Or him vs. Fixit. Or his three fights against the Silver Surfer.

Me rambling is probably the most tiresome thing in the world, so if you want to make a final judgement based on that, I'll put them up.

Oh, his hypno-eye trick isn't a combat tactic. He's used it once as such.

Not something you break out in the heat of combat.

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Old 11-07-2007, 07:29 PM   #75
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Shapeshifting is a good reg-level power. Morph is as good a shapeshifter as any Skrull and he's a reg.

Basically, you've got:
- Shapeshifting (reg level)
- Elasticity (reg level -- and overlaps with shape shifting)
- Fire (reg level)
- Hypnotism (reg level -- plus it requires direct eye contact, I think)
- Invisibility (reg level)
- Strength/durability (mid level -- overlaps somewhat with Reed's power)
- Forcefields (mid-level)

Without the forcefields, he'd clearly be a medium. Good-but-not-uber physical stats and a bunch of useful reg-level powers.

Based on a few scans I've seen, it seems like his forcefields are good enough to block a typical attack from an uber, but not to withstand a sustained pounding. E.g., Thor was able to batter through them fairly quickly.

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