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Old 11-08-2007, 05:01 PM   #101
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Default Re: Dream Team League Rankings

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cool.well just need Wieg to agree and finalise him at reg and thats one of the items we can tick off Tims list
I'd just like to know if, when he's so small he's 'unstoppable', can he still be contacted telepathically, magically, or technologically?

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:03 PM   #102
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Default Re: Dream Team League Rankings

His mind is still there when he shrinks. Any telepath should be able to still go after him.

Magically "scrying" would easily show his location.

Have someone with enhanced vision sight him.

Create a gravitational well to suck him in and crush him. You could do that with telekinesis.

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:04 PM   #103
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Default Re: Dream Team League Rankings

Or, you know. Laser Pointer.

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:05 PM   #104
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Or, you know. Laser Pointer.
Laser Pointer has already been declared tuber.

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:22 PM   #105
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The day Wieg answers my questions the first time I ask them, hell itself will freeze.

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:51 PM   #106
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Yup.

About that Super Skrull......

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:56 PM   #107
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Did I ever mention the massive power deficit between the Silver Surfer and Ronan/The Super Skrull?

How Norrin's knocked both out with one punch?

Why, when he knocked the Super Skrull out he tore off half his face!


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Old 11-08-2007, 05:57 PM   #108
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Atom 1 mil. is clearly better than Atom. I'd say Atom 1 mil is a high mid, whereas Atom is either low mid or high reg.

I think the Atom would be fine as a reg based on his offensive capabilities (there are plenty of other regs who are capable of taking down ubers) -- the only question is Are there really enough regs capable of hurting him?

It seems like unless you have a magic user, tech genius, or telepath, you'd never even find him. And most of the good magic users and telepaths are uber.

Let's compare to, say Ant Man. You could take him out in a lot of ways even without being able to determine his exact location -- omni-directional energy blast, massive explosion, sonic attack, blinding flash of light, suck all the air out of the room, etc.

Would any of that stuff work against the Atom (assuming he's at atomic size)? Someone here claimed that at atomic size he could pass right through an explosion without being hurt.

As for the laser pointer thing, that requires precise aim, meaning you have to be able to see him. I still think it's bull**** that Deathstroke could see him, unless he wasn't fully shrunk. (Plus Deathstroke totally pulled that microscopic vision power out of his ass, but that's another matter.)

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:58 PM   #109
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And most of the good tech users are regulars. What's your point?

Mr. Fantastic, Pym, Mr. Terrific II, T'Challa...

And Doom and Stark are middleweights.

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Old 11-08-2007, 05:59 PM   #110
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Aiiiiiii. Proof, Proof!




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Old 11-08-2007, 06:33 PM   #111
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And most of the good tech users are regulars. What's your point?

Mr. Fantastic, Pym, Mr. Terrific II, T'Challa...

And Doom and Stark are middleweights.
I just don't like the idea of you having to have one specific type of character in order to be able to beat a guy with someone of his weight class.

For one thing, what do you do when someone combines Atom with a reg who controls tech, or someone who can make him invisible to tech. Then the list of regs in this thing who can actually hurt him starts getting pretty short . . .

For what it's worth, I'm not even particularly convinced Atom should be upgraded. I'm just saying the best argument for it is that he's really hard to hurt. There's way more regs in this thing capable of hurting someone like Shadowcat, for instance.

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Old 11-08-2007, 06:38 PM   #112
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Regarding Ronan and Super-Skrull, I think everyone knows they're wussies compared to Silver Surfer (although in that particular pic he beat him by trashing his breathing apparatus, not something that'd be an issue in other environments.)

How would you say they stack up against mids like Vision, Aquaman, Iron Man, Apollo, full-power Iceman, etc.?

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Old 11-08-2007, 06:47 PM   #113
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Regarding Ronan and Super-Skrull, I think everyone knows they're wussies compared to Silver Surfer (although in that particular pic he beat him by trashing his breathing apparatus, not something that'd be an issue in other environments.)

How would you say they stack up against mids like Vision, Aquaman, Iron Man, Apollo, full-power Iceman, etc.?
He knocked the Super Skrull at cold, ripping off half his face. The breathing device had very little to do with it.

I would NOT put the Super Skrull against Iceman. SS wouldn't be able to do anything to him, while Iceman could snuff out his flame and then flat out beat him.

Likewise, The Vision tussled briefly with the Super Skrull once, and then the Vision merely went intangible and left. Super Skrull couldn't do anything about it.

Iron Man had an inconclusive fight with Ronan once. Physically Stark is comparable to either Ronan or the Super Skrull, with far FAR more versatility than either. Good match up's.

Aquaman has actually beaten White Maritan's with his telepathy due to the nature of Martian's in general. He would likewise probably be capable of mind****ing the Super Skrull because of his alien mind, and what they evolved from.

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Old 11-08-2007, 06:56 PM   #114
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I could see guys like SoV, Doom 2099, Dr. Dre, Aquaman, and Clea all giving him trouble.

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Old 11-08-2007, 06:59 PM   #115
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I could see guys like SoV, Doom 2099, Dr. Dre, Aquaman, and Clea all giving him trouble.
Spirit of Vengeance takes The Super Skrull or Ronan apart. What the **** are they going to do?

Doom 2099 is a nasty combination of tech and magic... Probably depower the Super Skrull of the cosmic rays that give him his powers or something.

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Old 11-08-2007, 06:59 PM   #116
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Strangly, you have two of those high end middleweights.

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Old 11-08-2007, 07:02 PM   #117
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Default Re: Dream Team League Rankings

Ok, some (god help me) rankings before I head home:

Super-Skrull is Middleweight. (If he doesn't have Sue's mid-weight force fields, so he's just a bunch of reg powers slammed together).

Ronan is Middleweight. (He was already)

Midas I'll read up on later.

Atom is a Regular. (Doesn't quite fall under the 'Zeitgiest rule'. But is close.)

Iron Man with Mother Box is a Middleweight (but the Mother Box must be limited to what was just seen in the comics that we discussed, otherwise it's too unpredictable)



I'll still listen to arguments against these, but not until I get home in an hour or so.

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Old 11-08-2007, 07:08 PM   #118
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Strangly, you have two of those high end middleweights.

**** you, buddy. In the anus with a vengeance. A spirit of vengeance even!

Malice could also take him imo. Who is also a mid.

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Old 11-08-2007, 07:23 PM   #119
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He knocked the Super Skrull at cold, ripping off half his face. The breathing device had very little to do with it.
That's not what their speech bubbles seem to be saying. Super Skrull actually says "You destroyed my life support system." And it's not clear to me whether his face is meant to be ripped-off in that last pic or just covered in blood.

But it's kind of a moot point. I fully admit the Surfer should trash Super Skrull.

I've also come around to thinking he'd be fine as a middleweight. So long as people don't have him using Sue's powers to the degree of her higher-end showings, which it seems would be inconsistent with how he's portrayed in the comics.

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Old 11-08-2007, 11:57 PM   #120
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**** you, buddy. In the anus with a vengeance. A spirit of vengeance even!

Malice could also take him imo. Who is also a mid.
I agree. I''ve got no idea why Tim was so worried about that.

She's completely shielded against his strength, flames, and stretching.

And her skill with the shields is beyond him.

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Old 11-08-2007, 11:58 PM   #121
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I've also come around to thinking he'd be fine as a middleweight. So long as people don't have him using Sue's powers to the degree of her higher-end showings, which it seems would be inconsistent with how he's portrayed in the comics.
He's not Sue, nor is he as skilled so of course her high end feats aren't his to use.

Not to mention me and Who just agreed that Sue would beat the **** out of him, so I'm there that just reaffirms your stance on it all.

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Old 11-09-2007, 09:02 AM   #122
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On another note...
I'm going to argue that Magneto (pre-Fatal Attractions) should be a medium.

- Fatal Attractions was an official power up for Magneto. It was his return from death after Fabian Cortez "killed" him, and he had apparently been "immersed in Earth's magnetic field" in a way that made him more powerful than ever before.
- It was the first time he used his powers to freeze all the X-Men in place and prevent them from consciously accessing their powers, by redirecting blood flow away from key areas of their brains. (I always thought this was bull**** -- if you cut off blood flow to part of a person's brain, it doesn't temporarily turn off, it dies, as in a stroke.)
- It was also in this story when he displayed the ability to black out the whole planet with a single EMP -- something he'd never come close to doing before
- He'd never done any crazy **** like making wormholes at this point either
- His biggest win prior to this point was probably the battle against Phoenix with mental blocks, who frankly should be an allowed uber. And he didn't beat her on raw power, he beat her because he was smarter and she was surprised to discover that she had limits. (Basically, Magneto tried to suck her power out, she poured it on thinking she could just overwhelm him, and then she unexpectedly ran out of power.)
- He's arguably weaker than the current version of Polaris (a medium), who has used the blood-redirection trick to freeze all the X-Men helplessly in place -- after she learned the trick from Magneto when she trained with him while he was ruler of Genosha (which marked a notable increase in her abilities across the board). Pre-Fatal Attractions Magneto still probably has the edge in defensive shields, and he's more creative in the use of his powers, but none of his attacks are as overwhelming as the blood-redirection trick.
- Even full power Magneto is a low level uber -- no where near as powerful as someone like Thanos, nor as versatile as Silver Surfer or Dr. Strange. Would anyone ever believe that the X-Men could beat Thanos in a fight -- hell no. Magneto pre-powerup is lower still. He's precisely what a medium should be -- someone who can give an uber a decent fight (mostly because of his high-level defensive shields), but is clearly at a disadvantage in power. He's been beaten more than once by the X-Men through the use of good teamwork, and they're mostly regs (even Iceman was a reg in those days).

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Old 11-09-2007, 09:05 AM   #123
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I actually do believe psionics are a form of energy, at-least in the Marvel Universe, but regardless, how did The Atom do in that JSA arc with Brainwave and Mr. Mind?

And what are people's thoughts regarding that line about magic not working on the sub-atomic level? I always dismissed it as nonsense, to be honest. How do mages manage the oldest magic trick in the world (of fiction), matter transmutation, otherwise?

Barring these two points, I can probably accept Ray as a Reg. The biggest issue with him seems to be other characters on his tier even finding him, but assuming telepaths can find him, I can live with that.

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Old 11-09-2007, 09:07 AM   #124
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As for why Phoenix (with mental blocks) shouldn't be tuber...

The mental blocks preventing her from accessing her full power, and her best feats weren't as impressive as some of the stuff we've seen from Nate Grey or Cable (Burnt Offering).

In her fight with Firestorm she didn't look to be at an overwhelming advantage -- they hit each other with a few attacks back and forth, eventually she blasted him into the ground. A page or so later he was back up looking unhurt and demanding they go another round, but she had already left the scene.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get her, I'm just saying beating her shouldn't make this version of Magneto uber -- especially since he beat her on brains and because she didn't know her own limit, not by raw power.

By the way, in case anyone thinks I'm just trying to get Mags as a medium to get a power advantage, really I'm not -- this is just my favorite version of Magneto. His first two battles with the '70s X-Men are among my all-time favorite comic book fights. In contrast, the current version is too powerful to have good fights with low-levels, while still a a disadvantage against the better ubers in this thing.

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Old 11-09-2007, 09:13 AM   #125
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And what are people's thoughts regarding that line about magic not working on the sub-atomic level? I always dismissed it as nonsense, to be honest. How do mages manage the oldest magic trick in the world (of fiction), matter transmutation, otherwise?
I agree, that's BS. I'm pretty sure Dr. Strange has ventured into the Microverse on at least one occasion and his magic still worked just fine.

I don't really mind Atom staying a reg, even though I thought there was an OK argument for upgrading. I guess you could always have an uber telepath or mage communicate Atom's exact location to the regs -- I wouldn't call that the uber attacking him.

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