Dream Team League Rankings

[XFanTim]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

I guess if her super-strength is really on the low side, I could see her as a reg even with the near-light super-speed.

I couldn't. Near light superspeed should mean at least medium, assuming she can do things at that speed like, say, throw a ton of punches in a fraction of a second. If it's literally just travel speed, that's another story.

We had the version of Quicksilver with supersonic speed as a medium. And I don't think it was near-light speed, just supersonic (which is a much lower threshold -- light is more than 800,000 times faster than sound). And I don't think he had any other powers at all.

So far as I know, regular level speedsters have always been limited to subsonic speed, the quintessential example being Quicksilver at his classic power level (no powers but speed, max speed = 300 mph or so, less than half the speed of sound at sea level.) And the thing is, classic Quicksilver is a pretty good reg, who can trounce most of the other hand-to-hand combat regs just by virtue of his speed. Anyone substantially faster than him really has no business being a reg.

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought the Isotope E Quicksilver was a reg too. He's not as close to light speed as Jesse, but he's significantly faster than the speed of sound.

[XFanTim]

We definitely had him ranked as a medium. See the discussion here, for instance.

I think we agree that it's stupid to rank a supersonic but not near-light speedster the same as a near-light speedster. The reason it happened that way is because people said "Classic Quicksilver is a reg, so Isotope-E Quicksilver must be a medium", but they also said "Barry and Wally are ubers, so Flashes that aren't as good as them should be mediums." In this way, we ended up with a ridiculous range of speedsters all classified as mediums.

My personal opinion is that the most sensible remedy is to say "all near-light speedsters are uber, supersonic but not near-light speedsters are medium, and sub-sonic speedsters are regs." That just seems like a nice simple way to distinguish them. But if people really can't bear to part with their mid-level Flashes, I guess the alternative is to make Isotope-E Quicksilver a reg.

He'd be a really good reg, though -- literally a reg who couldn't possibly be hurt by non-superspeed ubers like the Hulk (since if you're supersonic you can even outrun Hulk's thunderclap and footstomp attacks.) But having him ranked in the same class as guys who are hundreds of thousands of times faster than him is just nuts, especially since some of those guys have other good powers like phasing and flight as well.

[TheCorpulent1]

Quicksilver's reaction speed doesn't necessarily seem to be on par with his movement speed, though. Plenty of people have clotheslined him while he's speeding around, which really shouldn't be possible for a speedster of his caliber.

[XFanTim]

Speedsters of all levels seem to get hit by people who have no business of hitting them. The Flash is Exhibit A. He's got 99% of lightspeed or better, and accelerated thought processes and reflexes to match, and most of his Rogues gallery has no superspeed whatsoever. And yet somehow these guys have still managed to hit him on lots of occasions.

So basically, I don't think you can go by who has managed to hit him. To me, the questions are: Has he performed tasks that clearly called for him to think at super speed? Has he launched attacks at a super-fast rate (as opposed to just zipping in at superspeed and hitting someone with one attack). That sort of thing.

I've seen Quicksilver (at his classic powerlevel) snatch the guns out of a dozen armed assailants hands in the brink of an eye (to them it was like a breeze had gusted by, and then their guns had disappeared). I've seen him thrown a large number of punches in under a second. I've seen him do superfast mental feats, like solving a Rubik's cube in seconds (which some people can do by practice, but it was pretty clearly supposed to be a speed feat) or solving a large jigsaw puzzle nearly as fast. And at some point during Peter David's run on the 90's X-Factor, Quicksilver actually stated that the reason he's so grouchy is because he' s always thinking at superspeed, and to him it's like the world is full of bumbling idiots moving in slow motion.

So to me that's pretty definitive evidence that he has superspeed in his actions and thought processes, not just his running. That said, bios have stated that he's particularly optimized for running, in terms of having disproportiately strong legs great endurance when it comes to running.

[TheCorpulent1]

They at least try to explain why the Flash's Rogues can hit him. Captain Cold, for example, has a gun that freezes by slowing down molecules over an area. He points the gun in the general direction of the red blur and the Flash can't help slowing down. Sure, there are still about a billion other ways the Flash could handle him, but it's a start, at least.

I remember all those Quicksilver feats too, but thinking really fast and being a dick doesn't necessarily mean that his thought/reaction speed and movement speed match. He can clearly think fast enough to see and maneuver at high speed, but so can people driving cars. A particularly fast, non-super-speedy opponent like Spider-Man or Nemesis could still move an arm or a leg fast enough that he becomes like a guy driving a car at 200 mph with a deer suddenly jumping out into the road.

[wiegeabo]

Doesn't Quicksilver live at an accelerated pace? He actually has to consciously slow himself down to our level, which is why he finds everyone annoyingly slow.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but again, quantify that. How do we know his mind is operating that much faster than everyone else's? Plenty of perfectly normal people are douchebags because they can arrive at an answer for a math problem faster than most other people. Doesn't mean they have super-speed reaction times.

[XFanTim]

Yeah, but the explanations of how they hit Flash have always struck me as pathetically weak. If he goes all out, they shouldn't be able to even see the red blur. And he should have disarmed them before their finger even started contracting on the trigger of the gun. "Near light speed" is just so much faster than normal human reaction times that there's really nothing they can reasonably do.

Here's the thing about Quicksilver: he's not all that fast. I mean, I think his top speed was around 300 mph or so. Usain Bolt ran 100 meters at the 2008 Olympics in 9.69 seconds, and probably could have done it in 9.60 s or faster if he wasn't showboating at the end. That translates into over 23 miles per hour. So Quicksilver's top speed is maybe 13 times faster than a peak human's top speed. I shouldn't take that much evidence to prove that a guy thinks/reacts a dozen or so times faster than a peak human, and I think the evidence we have is enough to reasonably draw that conclusion.

It would take a lot more evidence to convince me someone had "near light speed" reflexes, since that's a much more drastic claim. Note that guys like Silver Surfer don't even have the reaction feats that Quicksilver does, much less ones that clearly demonstrate light-speed reaction times.

I should note that the other huge difference between a guy like Quicksilver and a real-life speedster like Usain Bolt is that Quicksilver can maintain his top speed far, far longer. He's not just Usain Bolt sped up by a factor of 13. But in terms of measuring his top speed, he is.

[XFanTim]

Plus, we're not just going by him *****ing that people around him are slow. He has specific feats of high-speed combat.

Think about how long it would take you to pull the guns out of the hands of a dozen men. Even if they weren't resisting at all, it'd probably take you at least half a second per man. Quicksilver can disarm all of them in an eye blink, less than a half-second total. So that's a speed-up of more than a factor of 12 right there, comparable with the factor by which his running speed compares to that of a peak human.

Of course, you and I aren't "peak humans", but I doubt even a "peak human" could disarm a dozen men in much less than 6 seconds. As a quick experiment, I found that it took me about 7 seconds just to pick up a pen and drop it on my desk a dozen times.

[wiegeabo]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Yeah, but again, quantify that. How do we know his mind is operating that much faster than everyone else's? Plenty of perfectly normal people are douchebags because they can arrive at an answer for a math problem faster than most other people. Doesn't mean they have super-speed reaction times.

I think it would mean he has superspeed reactions/thoughts because that's his normal operating speed. Sort of how the world slows down when Flash accelerates, that's what Quicksilver lives in normally. Except where Flash has to speed up to make the world slow down, Quicksilver has to slow down to make the world speed up.

I think that's also why he's so annoyed with everyone being so slow. If everyone would just speed up, he wouldn't have to deal with always waiting and being bored.

[XFanTim]

Got a ruling yet on Thundermind or Phoenix (Guardians of the Galaxy)?

[wiegeabo]

I don't think Thundermind is 'significantly defined' as the rule states he must be. It could be argued that the definition of his powers, while vague, might be complete, there isn't a clear definition of all his powers in the comics. This includes what powers he has, power levels, and any weaknesses.


Phoenix I'm leaning against. The comment about him being well above Starhawk, and being able to actually heal Eternity (the cosmically powerful embodiment of all life in the Marvel Universe) are probably the best evidence against him.

[Ahura Mazda]

Just one thing regarding the Hulk up there, his reaction speed ramps up with his rage as well as other powers and he has been shown to defeat a number of speedsters. Of course he has also been shown to not be able to touch Spiderman when Hammerhead had no problem doing so; therefore showing the inconsistency.

[XFanTim]

Just as long as it's no where near the uber speedsters . . . because World War Hulk with Superman-level speed would be clearly tuber in my opinion. But so far as I know Hulk has never had Superman-like speed, which is part of why I didn't have a problem allowing WWH Hulk as an uber.

[Ahura Mazda]

Just remember he defeated/fought to a stand still the Sentry supposedly going all out.

[AnnoyingSilence]

so if i get this thing running... i'm in charge right?

[JewishHobbit]

Some character ranking questions...

INK

I think he'd be a MR if not for the Phoenix tatoo, which would make him either uber or tuber. But the thing is, it's only a fascimile of the Phoenix power and when he can't use too much or it basically kills him Example... he used it to take the power away from a gang of people who also had tatoo powers... but when he used it to resurrect Dust, it left him comatose. So he's not at Jean Grey Phoenix level, but he's still got a lot of the Pheonix level power.

So would that make him a MM or a MU?

Deadman

I don't even know if he'd be allowed or not.

Prince of Orphans

To me this guy seems like a really good MR, but I can maybe see people arguing for him to be a MM.

Skullfire

His final appearance had him as a pure energy, fairly malable, energy form. I don't know if this would bump him up from MR to MM so I thought I'd ask before assuming.

Wallflower (House of M)

I don't know if she'd be a MR or a MM. I'd say MM if not for the SO many easy ways to keep from breaking in her pheromones, which might bump her down to MR. But then again, the effects of her pheremones once inhales is frightening... I don't know.

[Harlekin]

Deadman is regular.

[JewishHobbit]

Really?

[JewishHobbit]

The Ray

I thought he'd be an obvious DR, but then I read in his light form he can move at the speed of light. Does that bump him up?

[Harlekin]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

Really?

Ya really.

[Johnny Blaze]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

The Ray

I thought he'd be an obvious DR, but then I read in his light form he can move at the speed of light. Does that bump him up?

Coupled with his other abilities, I'd say DM.

[AnnoyingSilence]

i don't know why you guys are super-stuck on having 5v5 battles that take forever to read and type.

and more over, commish never comments on it.

if we remove this restriction. i think that everyone will like the DTL much more. being able to use any combonation between 1v1 to 5v5 will open up all kinds of possiblities. where as a strict 5v5 is an epic battle. thats stands for an all reg team as well.

for any of us, if we don't put creativity into our stories, its just not worth the time(at least tahts how i feel). and I KNOW that everyone has ran into parts of combat or trickery that they would really love to dive into detail with, but can't because that would make the story too long, or draw out an already drawn out fight.

plz consider it. or at least say something me. PLZ can i get a vote on this.

3 for spam

[wiegeabo]

Moving these to the proper thread.

Originally Posted by Nightwing

Can I plead a case for Darkseid to be made Uber and pulled off the Tuber bar?

He has the same power levels as Superman, and yes he has boomtubes and the omega blast but that wouldnt put someone above the Tuber line in my eyes as much as say the power cosmic would. Infact the Power Cosmic does more for a character and against other characters than the omega blast would. What is the actual official reason for Darkseid being Tuber'd?

I know that at a certain point his power levels got stupidly over the top but there was a time when he was Superman level strength and like with other characters there are pre and post characters which affects their power sets and are allowed...

Im wanting to open this debate up and thus if the result is he's legal I would like to pick him up...

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

What ranking would Ray Palmer (Indigo Lantern) be? The Indigos don't seem to have the powerlevels the Green Lanterns do. Mostly Ray just fired energy blasts, created a forcefield, and flew. Add that to his regular powers... would he be a DM, or retain the DR status? I really don't see him being Uber.