Villain Predictions

[spideyman101]

Does anyone remember far enough back before Green Goblin was comfirmed to remember who was the predicted villain(s) for Spider-Man?

Was GG always predicted? Was Doc Ock the main prediction? What other characters were predicted. Were there any storylines besides the Origin storyline that was predicted?

What weird and whacky ideas were formed and what "rumors" were made?

[Mr.E.Nygma]

Well, when the James Cameron project was rurmored, Doc Ock was the villain.
As far as I'm concerned, I felt Green Goblin was a nice way to start an official Spider-Man project...what they did!

Ad I felt that adding Venom to the movie franchise too early would be not so good...what they did!

[NewYorkSpider]

I know this isn't about your question, but...

There were a couple of people up for the role of Norman Osborn besides Willem Dafoe also. Nicolas Cage and John Malcovich.

[Green Goblin 1964]

Originally Posted by NewYorkSpider

I know this isn't about your question, but...

There were a couple of people up for the role of Norman Osborn besides Willem Dafoe also. Nicolas Cage and John Malcovich.

HAHAHAHA!

[BobJM]

I wasn't here on these boards back that far, but Electro and Sandman (in name only) were part of a James Cameron screenplay that was just released online.

[ThatDamnNinja]

Originally Posted by BobJM

I wasn't here on these boards back that far, but Electro and Sandman (in name only) were part of a James Cameron screenplay that was just released online.

In name only? Please explain.

[Green Goblin 1964]

Originally Posted by ThatDamnNinja

In name only? Please explain.

There names weren't Flint Marko and Max Dillon like in the comics...

I think that's what he means

[BobJM]

Yea, and they were just completely different from their comic counterparts. It's interesting to read, but I'm glad Marvel waited for Raimi.

[Drizzle]

When Raimi's production started, two villains were originally planned: Green Goblin and Doc Ock. They eventually just decided to go with the Goblin. Then there was a time after the first film came out where Raimi said Doc Ock wouldn't be in the sequel? Why? I'm not really sure. Maybe he just wanted to throw people off.

[Robin91939]

Cameron's Spider-man project was interesting. He really nailed the villains (Sandman and Electro's) powers but not really their back stories or character traits. However, his Peter Parker/Spider-man character was excellently written.

-R

[TomPiltoff]

Originally Posted by Robin91939

Cameron's Spider-man project was interesting. He really nailed the villains (Sandman and Electro's) powers but not really their back stories or character traits. However, his Peter Parker/Spider-man character was excellently written.

-R

I disagree about Peter being well written. Doesn't he bang MJ on a bridge?

[Jack O'Lantern]

From what I remember, the main villain was a cross between Norman Osborn and Electro. He was a wealthy businessman that got struck by lightening. And Peter has sex with MJ on a bridge.

[DACrowe]

Peter cursed like a sailor, when he first got his powers he considered using it to sell pot and not get caught like kids in his school and as Spidey kidnapped MJ up to a bridge and then banged her with his mask on. If that is the Peter Parker we read in the comics, I musth ave missed it.

It was pretty much always GG or Doc Ock or both. You can read Koepp's first draft with both...it sucks.

Most were glad with going with GG but a few *****ed it wasn't Ock. And there was the smallest of a minority already whining and crying for Venom to be in SM1.

The lousy Millar And Gough screenplay had Doc Ock, Lizard and Black Cat in it for SM2 which was then rewritten by David Koepp who may or may not have taken out Lizard but introduced Harry becoming a much more unlikeable GG2 in SM2. The Stacys were also introduced and Harry killed Gwen at the end, from the rumors on that last bit. He kept BC for sure and also pushed hte Millar idea of Doc Ock bein infactuated with actress MJ and trying to kidnap and bang her, much like Joker in B'89. Chabon was hired to rewrite SM2 from scratch at that point and outside of the "inhibtor chip" thanks to those overrated hacks from Smallville, he completely rewrote SM2 and his screenplay became the basic plot outline for Alvin Sargent and SAm RAimi to rework as they saw fit for SM2.

SM3 on the other hand started off not convoluted like the first two but just Peter's pride, Harry and Sandman. Then somehow Vulture ended up in Sam and his brother's screenplay as a third villain. Then the studio mandated thatt the second woman who had one scene as Peter's lab partner and was in the restaurant be Gwen and of course take out Vulture for Venom and add Brock/the symbiote's backstories, which were incorporated in Sargent's unknown number of drafts.

There's the lay out for the writing process of all three.

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by spideyman101

Does anyone remember far enough back before Green Goblin was comfirmed to remember who was the predicted villain(s) for Spider-Man?

Was GG always predicted? Was Doc Ock the main prediction? What other characters were predicted. Were there any storylines besides the Origin storyline that was predicted?

What weird and whacky ideas were formed and what "rumors" were made?

This is one question I am actually qualified to answer. Nearly ten years it's been-!

James Cameron was initially intending to use Doctor Octopus, and Bob Hoskins was the main rumour. That was back in the Cannon days. Cannon who gave us Superman IV.

Cameron later went with Electro-as-a-buisiness-man-called-Carlton-Strand, and the Sandman. This was in his legendary scriptment, which few fans are aware, Raimi's 2002 is based on. The Goblin trying to tempt Spidey to join the dark side, the organic webbing, it's all from the great man. Though Raimi, for once, showed some taste by going for a more romantic kiss in the rain where Cameron favoured a full-on webbed-up f**k on a bridge.

Cameron clearly chose Electro and the Sandman for their special effects potential.

At this point, Stan Lee actively said that if anyone but Cameron directed the movie, it would be a shame as Cameron was the perfect director.

Cameron also said in interviews that Leonardo DiCaprio - Tobey Maguire's best friend - was his choice for Spidey ("He's got moves, man").

For the post-Cameron history, DACrowe has got it all down. The main rumoured candidates for the Goblin and Ock were Liam Neeson and Larry Drake, who had done Darkman with Raimi. Drake looks alarmingly like Octavius.



Then John Malkovich said no about playing Osborn, going as far as to say it wasn't his bag, baby. Not in those words. Nicolas Cage couldn't do it either.

And who's this?



Only Raimi and Avi could really tell you, but apparently she was very nearly the Black Cat in Spidey 2 (which was almost called Spider-Man 2 Lives, Spider-Man Unmasked or Spider-Man No More).

[Spiderine]

I could not imagine how GG and Doc Ock would have played out.

[Venom 1988]

While I love Molina as Ock, Larry Drake is actually pretty good choice

[DACrowe]

Also at some point the studio attempted to cast Billy-Bob Thorton as GG (according to Thorton) but he thankfully turned it down, saying it also wasn't his thing. Funny, Dafoe looks like was fourth or fifth choice, but he was the best guy of the ones listed for the job (I think Neeson was a good choice for Ock but not really Gobby and much better suited as Ra's Al Ghul). Also Sam Neil at some point was considered for Doc Ock in SM2, but couldn't do it. Jake G was obviously almost a Spidey replacement in the second film as well.

As for Peter in the first movie the studio wanted Freddie Prinze Jr. of all people but Raimi pushed it tooth and nail and pushed Maguire and actively sought out Maguire. He first had to convince Maguire to do it, and then he had to convince the studios to let Maguire do it, and Sam's back up was Wes Bently (from American Beauty and Four Feathers...and on a low note Ghost Rider's villain as well). Fortunately Tobey got the role. Supposedly it was offered to Heath Ledger though and MJ WAS offered to Kate Hudson.

As for Ock/GG. The plotline was basically Norman is a through and through ******* with little conflict of good and evil, even though he did struggle on how evil (more Mackie than Stan Lee here) who fired Octavious, working for Oscorp, for no reason than to save a few pennies. Ocatvious who is working on the performance enhancer gas with his arms gets pissed and goes crazy trying to kill Norman with the arms, this causes an explosion and Octavious is badly burned sticking the arms to his back and losing his research. Norman enhales the gas and his eyes turn green.

Norman then decides his son (who is written as a selfish little snot in this draft, completely unlikeable) deserves to die, because he cannot be trusted to run his grandfather's company. GG then tries to kill Harry Osborn at the festival (he is in no risk of losing his company) and is thrwarted by you know who. Octavious thought Norman is dead and recognizes the flight suit and glider and knows Osborn lives. Octavious is the one who attacks Jameson at the Bugle to find out who Peter Parker is (who does have a photo credit) to take him to Spidey...to take him to GG (as the Bugle says they are in cahoots), Peter says he doesn't know who GG is. Ock throws Peter across the room much like SM2 and leaves.

Spidey then at some point is given a stabbed needle injection like in SSM #200 by GG to join forces with him. Spidey later declines (I forget the details) and they are enemies. Norman tries to put GG in check and loves his son but then finds out at the Thanksgiving indecision meeting (Aunt May is not there, like in the whole movie, and the three kids and Uncle Norman are going to go out ot dinner) and thinks they all deserve to die when he finds out MJ is in love with Peter.

GG invites all three to Oscorp under false pretenses and tries to blow them up, Harry leaves Peter to die and nearly gets him and MJ killed by stopping an elevator with a glass wall GG can see so as to ***** her out for being in love with Peter (when she isn't, she is strictly in love with Spidey in this movie and Peter is the equivalent of Clark Kent to Lois Lane). Peter, who burned his costume after Aunt May got hurt, in middle of the climax goes and buys one from a costume shop across the street, saves Harry and MJ only to have his ass saved while holding the rope to the elevator by...Doc Ock who gets in a tussle with GG and takes off his mask and reveals it is Norman.

Spidey then at Harry's pleading fights Ock to save GG, who then tries to kill MJ, who Peter tags along for the ride to the bridge. Peter saves MJ, Koepp's screenplay is completely condescending about the climax and then saves GG as well. Ock is pissed GG lived, and Harry's darkside comes out when he sees MJ and Spidey kiss and is even more pissed (by how many exclamation points come after the yelling) than Ock. We then see Norman go to jail for life and Harry be a douche bag again and then promise to get revenge on Spidey...for stealing his girlfriend. Ock is still out there doing God knows what at the end of the movie and Spidey ain't looking for him.

There is a brief summary of how Koepp put these two villains together. And people thought SM3 didn't work...

[Kevin Roegele]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Also at some point the studio attempted to cast Billy-Bob Thorton as GG (according to Thorton) but he thankfully turned it down, saying it also wasn't his thing. Funny, Dafoe looks like was fourth or fifth choice, but he was the best guy of the ones listed for the job (I think Neeson was a good choice for Ock but not really Gobby and much better suited as Ra's Al Ghul). Also Sam Neil at some point was considered for Doc Ock in SM2, but couldn't do it. Jake G was obviously almost a Spidey replacement in the second film as well.

As for Peter in the first movie the studio wanted Freddie Prinze Jr. of all people but Raimi pushed it tooth and nail and pushed Maguire and actively sought out Maguire. He first had to convince Maguire to do it, and then he had to convince the studios to let Maguire do it, and Sam's back up was Wes Bently (from American Beauty and Four Feathers...and on a low note Ghost Rider's villain as well). Fortunately Tobey got the role. Supposedly it was offered to Heath Ledger though and MJ WAS offered to Kate Hudson.

As for Ock/GG. The plotline was basically Norman is a through and through ******* with little conflict of good and evil, even though he did struggle on how evil (more Mackie than Stan Lee here) who fired Octavious, working for Oscorp, for no reason than to save a few pennies. Ocatvious who is working on the performance enhancer gas with his arms gets pissed and goes crazy trying to kill Norman with the arms, this causes an explosion and Octavious is badly burned sticking the arms to his back and losing his research. Norman enhales the gas and his eyes turn green.

Norman then decides his son (who is written as a selfish little snot in this draft, completely unlikeable) deserves to die, because he cannot be trusted to run his grandfather's company. GG then tries to kill Harry Osborn at the festival (he is in no risk of losing his company) and is thrwarted by you know who. Octavious thought Norman is dead and recognizes the flight suit and glider and knows Osborn lives. Octavious is the one who attacks Jameson at the Bugle to find out who Peter Parker is (who does have a photo credit) to take him to Spidey...to take him to GG (as the Bugle says they are in cahoots), Peter says he doesn't know who GG is. Ock throws Peter across the room much like SM2 and leaves.

Spidey then at some point is given a stabbed needle injection like in SSM #200 by GG to join forces with him. Spidey later declines (I forget the details) and they are enemies. Norman tries to put GG in check and loves his son but then finds out at the Thanksgiving indecision meeting (Aunt May is not there, like in the whole movie, and the three kids and Uncle Norman are going to go out ot dinner) and thinks they all deserve to die when he finds out MJ is in love with Peter.

GG invites all three to Oscorp under false pretenses and tries to blow them up, Harry leaves Peter to die and nearly gets him and MJ killed by stopping an elevator with a glass wall GG can see so as to ***** her out for being in love with Peter (when she isn't, she is strictly in love with Spidey in this movie and Peter is the equivalent of Clark Kent to Lois Lane). Peter, who burned his costume after Aunt May got hurt, in middle of the climax goes and buys one from a costume shop across the street, saves Harry and MJ only to have his ass saved while holding the rope to the elevator by...Doc Ock who gets in a tussle with GG and takes off his mask and reveals it is Norman.

Spidey then at Harry's pleading fights Ock to save GG, who then tries to kill MJ, who Peter tags along for the ride to the bridge. Peter saves MJ, Koepp's screenplay is completely condescending about the climax and then saves GG as well. Ock is pissed GG lived, and Harry's darkside comes out when he sees MJ and Spidey kiss and is even more pissed (by how many exclamation points come after the yelling) than Ock. We then see Norman go to jail for life and Harry be a douche bag again and then promise to get revenge on Spidey...for stealing his girlfriend. Ock is still out there doing God knows what at the end of the movie and Spidey ain't looking for him.

There is a brief summary of how Koepp put these two villains together. And people thought SM3 didn't work...

Regardless of the quality of the script (or lack of), its was just too much for the first movie. Everything was crammed it there. You can only imagine the sequel to that movie...! It would have begun with the death of Captain Stacy, then gone through the entire symbiote costume arc, and then finishing with Spidey fighting the Sinister Six with the Captain Universe powers and the death of Gwen Stacy.

Actually, although that's a joke, it's not much sillier than trying to fit the Galactus/Silver Surfer saga into ninety minutes....

[Catman]

Originally Posted by Kevin Roegele

Regardless of the quality of the script (or lack of), its was just too much for the first movie.

Agreed. The first installment of a superhero franchise should be simple. Introduce the characters and their world then expand on it in the sequels. I know it seems simple but Donner, Burton, and Raimi are one of the few who managed to pull if off. Singer's X-Men felt like half a movie. Which is funny cause during interviews for X2 he admitted that he felt that way about the movie. And Nolan's Batman Begins has too much going on. It didn't feel crammed but rushed which resulted in a "dry" movie.

[Batmans Spirit]

Malkovich would have been a great Norman!