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Old 07-22-2007, 07:59 PM   #1276
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

Wrath of Khan, and First Contact are the best of the bunch. IMHO of course.

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Old 07-22-2007, 08:00 PM   #1277
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

I know I should. I have a list of alot of my friends favorites, and people on the boards.

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Old 07-22-2007, 08:05 PM   #1278
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

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I know I should. I have a list of alot of my friends favorites, and people on the boards.

Wrath of Khan is really good. It reminds me alot of the old W.W.II movies where the destroyer is always searching for and dropping depth charges on the sub. Cat and mouse through out the film.

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Old 07-22-2007, 10:31 PM   #1279
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

That is one of the most highly recommended.

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Old 07-22-2007, 11:52 PM   #1280
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

I always thought that "Wrath of Khan" meant either two things:

- Superman may die.
- The quality jump from ST:TMP to TWOK.

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Old 07-22-2007, 11:52 PM   #1281
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

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Wrath of Khan is really good. It reminds me alot of the old W.W.II movies where the destroyer is always searching for and dropping depth charges on the sub. Cat and mouse through out the film.
I do believe those movies were an influence on Wrath of Khan, one of them, Burt Lancaster/Clark Gable, damn what was the name of it...

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Old 07-23-2007, 12:04 AM   #1282
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

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when he referred to Wrath of Kahn, he only referred it in the way of revitalizing the franchise once again... Superman Returns was a very lot like Star Trek: The Motion Picture... epic yet very boring. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn restarted the movie series with a great storyline and lots of action.

and Kahn does not kill Kirk's son in Star Trek II.
The funny thing about this whole quote that ST:TMP was considered boring till another director not familiar with Star Trek at all, except for watching the episodes after getting hired, took a script writen by someone else, re-wrote it and then directed the best film. But it was someone else.

SR was directed by Singer. And now he is saying I will go all Wrath of Kahn on it. But he is the same guy that made the boring preceding movie. So stupid.

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Old 07-23-2007, 06:26 AM   #1283
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

Singer used the same analogy when talking about X2.

And that didnt exactly turn out to be a piece of crap, now did it?.......................

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Old 07-23-2007, 07:41 AM   #1284
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

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I do believe those movies were an influence on Wrath of Khan, one of them, Burt Lancaster/Clark Gable, damn what was the name of it...
I know the one you are speaking of, but the name escapes me....I wanna say its *the enemy below* but i'm not real sure.

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Old 07-23-2007, 07:58 AM   #1285
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Default Re: "Wrath of Khan" reference

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Singer used the same analogy when talking about X2.

And that didnt exactly turn out to be a piece of crap, now did it?.......................
Well the question that in the head of non-SR fans is "Why would you go Wrath Of Khan in other words make a better movie when you could've had the chance with the first one "

I doubt the first X-men movie had split fans just as SR did. Even you have to admit that. The first X-men movie was liked/loved by alot of people. It's not universally loved liked LOTR but it ranked pretty high and X2 built on that success. SInger got a bigger budget and expanded on the storylines as well improve on action VFX etc.

I wouldn't go so far and say that he got carte blanche for SR but he didd have far more freedom and money then what he got at Fox.
So why go Wrath Of Khan when your first movie is already a risky project .

Using the WoK analogy , every time Singer would be attached to a comic book franchise we should always look forward to the 2nd movie and not the first since the 2nd one will always be far better

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Old 11-13-2007, 02:34 PM   #1286
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Default Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

This is a two fold post. One part will deal with the trimming of the budget, and the second will deal with my Wrath of Khan theory that I was thinking about today while I got in my three mile jog that turned into a four mile jog because I was so deep in thought. Also, the Cleveland Browns still suck, and, for your information, the REAL Browns are in Baltimore! Oh, and when I say Wrath of Khan theory, I in know way am talking about Singer's comments or Singer in general, but the similiarity between the first Star Trek movie and Returns, and between WOK and what the next solo Superman flick should be, if the WGA crap ever gets settled.

I'm going to catch some hell for a few of the things I say, but I believe I'm right, and I don't mean for that to make me sound like an ass.

The first thing that needs to be done is the budget needs to be scaled back, dramatically. Without bashing Singer to hard, he blew a huge amount of cash on nothing at all. Had he kept his wallet in check, there would be a Returns sequel on the way. Again, the money was spent on nothing. I'm convinced a good Superman flick WITH superfights could be made on a budget of $100-125 million. I've seen more done with less, including Singer's first X-Men, Serenity, and not to mention the Star Wars prequels that were made for $90 million a piece. And, this is where I'm going to catch hell, the effects and the flying on Smallville look just fine to me, I wouldn't mind the film LOOKING like a 2-2 1/2 hour episode of Smallville when it comes to effects. The fights would need to be crisp, but with a good Director it could be done easily.

The WOK theory goes like this. Star Trek: The Motion Picture was a long awaited movie that had Robert Wise at the helm and let Gene Roddenberry go all fanboy with the script. The result was a movie that tried so hard to be grand and epic with forced character development between the main characters, but in the end floundered and failed although it "looked nice". Just like Returns. The threat was more a substance than a person, like Returns. And the results in general were very similiar to Returns. It's uncanny how similiar these projects are to each other.

And then came WOK. Instead of trying to force a big, grand, floundering epic with the next film, the Motion Picture was, for the most part, ignored in the second film other than Kirk still being an admiral. They brought in the man who's name drop inspired these thoughts, Nicholas Meyer, an efficient but unknown Director. Meyer, Harve Bennett, and the other writers decided than a character driven film with a few, but intense and satisfying, action scene's were needed with a memorable villian. They reviewed every single episode of the original series until they found Space Seed, and based WOK on the events of that episode. They scaled back the budget by a ton, and hired an efficient production crew that was more based in tv than in film, and they created perhaps the most memorable space movie of all time.

This needs to be done with the next Superman film. The Star Trek people took a franchise that was deemed old and tired and gave it new life with a character driven film that featured a great villian and crisp, intense action scene's. What the next Superman film needs is for an efficient, intelligent, non- fanboy director to come in and direct the film. No Singers, No Burtons, No Ratners, No McG, No Oliver Stone, No Shamaylan, No Raimi, No Wolfgang Peterson, no more of that crap. Bring in a good writer who has a grasp on making a sci-fi/fantasy story while retaining a human, character driven element, such as John Logan, Ronald D. Moore, Tim Minear, Brian K. Vaugh, or Damon Lindelof, and team them with a comic book guru such as Jeph Loeb or perhaps the DCAU team of Timm/Dini, and hammer out a golden script. It's all in the script, because then your efficient Director has the road paved for him. Hell, I wouldn't mind Nicholas Meyer directing a Superman flick with a golden script. Before writing the script, have your creative team read Superman comics and watch the Animated Series, just like the Star Trek team watched all of the series episodes, and while you really won't bee able to nail one story, they could find some storylines and character arcs to work with and put on the big screen. And no, don't be like Singer and use an action comics shot as justification that you looked at a comic book. Actually use the damn stories to your advantage, don't box yourself in the Donnerverse.

And then the villian, my favorite part. So much in movies ride on the villian. Look at WOK, you think it would be what it was without Ricardo Montalban's performance as Khan and how the character was written. HELL NO. Was Khan spouting off cheesy one liner dialouge and surrounded by a group of idiots and another bimbo who yet again turns her back on him. NO. Khan was an actual threat, an evil man who believed he was in the right. This is the type of person who Superman needs to go up against. Luthor, Braniac, Darkseid, Metallo, Parasite, Morgan f-ing Edge, I don't care, but make them an actual evil threat, not a jokester surrounded by idiots, regardless of why he is surrounded by idiots. I HATE comedical villians, with a passion mind you. My perfect villian is the devil incarnate, but a devil incarnate who believes what he is doing is right and that won't stop until he has succeded or die. This villian isn't Donner or Singer's Lex. There Lex is a f-ing buffoon. A moron. A waste of time and space on the big screen and a waste of viewers time. Bring on the devil incarnate, bring him on to the ultimate hero, Superman. It's time for Superman to have a real live action Nemesis.

The cast. I don't even want to get into that. I wouldn't mind a film filled with great character actors. Routh or Welling, I don't care. If casting Welling mean't we got Rosenbaum and Durance though, I'd take it, because those two are excellent at there characters. And James Marsters is a great Braniac. I'd pay too see Marsters as Braniac battle Welling OR Routh, but then again I'm a huge fan Again, casting doesn't really concern me right now!

In closing, the next Superman film needs to go the way of Wrath of Khan, and maybe this ship can finally be sailing in the right direction after all these years.



By the way, in my own Superman fan script, the first shot you see of a fully costumed Superman is him sitting on the cloud, relaxed, waiting for someone to cry for help, just like the cover or All-Star Superman. Use this shot at some point in the film.

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:18 PM   #1287
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

^That is a big post

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:27 PM   #1288
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

couldn't agree with you more, NotFadeAway

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:39 PM   #1289
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

I don't agree that Lex was a buffoon in SUPERMAN RETURNS. The man engineered an entire island laced with Kryptonite, drew Superman to it, then had Superman beaten within an inch of his life, then stabbed in the side with a shard of Kryptonite and watched him fall off a cliff, leaving him to die in the ocean. Oh, and he left a mother and her child to die. That's a lot more "evil" than most things that any Luthor I've seen has ever done, and frankly, Luthor's actions led to something a lot more interesting and powerful than most superhero climaxes have been.

Was his plan for New Krypton stupid? Yes. Was there some cheese to his character? Sure. Was the potential of Lex Luthor reached? No. But was he a complete loss as a character? Nope.

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:46 PM   #1290
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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couldn't agree with you more, NotFadeAway
Thank You!

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:49 PM   #1291
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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I don't agree that Lex was a buffoon in SUPERMAN RETURNS. The man engineered an entire island laced with Kryptonite, drew Superman to it, then had Superman beaten within an inch of his life, then stabbed in the side with a shard of Kryptonite and watched him fall off a cliff, leaving him to die in the ocean. Oh, and he left a mother and her child to die. That's a lot more "evil" than most things that any Luthor I've seen has ever done, and frankly, Luthor's actions led to something a lot more interesting and powerful than most superhero climaxes have been.
Was his plan for New Krypton stupid? Yes. Was there some cheese to his character? Sure. Was the potential of Lex Luthor reached? No. But was he a complete loss as a character? Nope.
Explain how it was interesting and powerful? And I'm not being a smart ass!

On that note, I'm sorry, but I hate this Luthor with a passion. I'm biased toward my hate, I'm sorry. I'm so sick of watching all these memorable villians in comic films, sci-fi, and the movie industry in general, and none are up against the Man of Steel.

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:50 PM   #1292
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Someone had to

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:51 PM   #1293
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Someone had to
LOL

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:54 PM   #1294
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

I should say that I do not want some attempt at a grand, sweeping epic. I want a great, personal film about the character of Superman, not to mention Lois Lane and Lex Luthor, or whatever villian is choosen. This is the way for Superman to get back on top. Why try to compete with all the jazz of Spider-Man when you can easily defeat it with a great character driven film, a great villian, and the greatest hero of all time. Finally, Superman can reclaim his top spot!

The general public already thinks Superman is bland and boring. We, as Superman fans, know better than that. This is a rich character. Thats why this needs to be a personal film about the character of Superman and the characters of that universe. With a couple bad ass super fights as well!

Every Director and Producers who works on Superman seems to think they need to add or subtract things from the character to make him more interesting. Kids, Kryptonian Civil Wars, Giant Spiders, and an Lois having an immaculate conception. What the f^ck. I got an idea. Tell a story about the character himself for a damn change and everything will be fine!

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Old 11-13-2007, 06:27 PM   #1295
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

I've typically disagreed with the O.P. on numerous occasions, but there is some merit to what he's saying. Particularly with the budget. I disagree about letting Singer go, though. Unless they could snag Nick Meyer. Otherwise, I say let Singer do what he did with X-2 and give him about $120 million to make the film. I think some of the suggested writers would work well, but that there are also a pretty good crop of other writers who could do just as well, if not better than those listed (and I've put some of my candidates in another thread). I disagree about Welling, Rosenbaum, and Durance, though. I still hate Smallville, think Welling has the emotional range of a cinder block, and that Erica Durance needs to get a refund for her "Gilmore Girls" acting lessons. Rosenbaum would be fine...but I could care less because Spacey is twice the actor he is and could jump into a different version of Lex instantly and with greater ease due to his raw skill as an actor. My main agreeance, though, is on the budget. WB was dumb to give an economical director like Singer near free reign only to have a $10 million scene excised from the film that would've only served to make the profit margins better if it'd have never been filmed in the first place. Plus, they let Sony jack themselves off on unnecessary CGI that could've easily have been done just as well (if not better) using green screen work. Why these FX designers always have to feel like they're required to "pull a Matrix" and break new ground each time out is beyond me. Just make the FX good enough to tell the story. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Old 11-13-2007, 06:32 PM   #1296
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Red face Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Originally Posted by KaptainKrypton View Post
I've typically disagreed with the O.P. on numerous occasions, but there is some merit to what he's saying. Particularly with the budget. I disagree about letting Singer go, though. Unless they could snag Nick Meyer. Otherwise, I say let Singer do what he did with X-2 and give him about $120 million to make the film. I think some of the suggested writers would work well, but that there are also a pretty good crop of other writers who could do just as well, if not better than those listed (and I've put some of my candidates in another thread). I disagree about Welling, Rosenbaum, and Durance, though. I still hate Smallville, think Welling has the emotional range of a cinder block, and that Erica Durance needs to get a refund for her "Gilmore Girls" acting lessons. Rosenbaum would be fine...but I could care less because Spacey is twice the actor he is and could jump into a different version of Lex instantly and with greater ease due to his raw skill as an actor. My main agreeance, though, is on the budget. WB was dumb to give an economical director like Singer near free reign only to have a $10 million scene excised from the film that would've only served to make the profit margins better if it'd have never been filmed in the first place. Plus, they let Sony jack themselves off on unnecessary CGI that could've easily have been done just as well (if not better) using green screen work. Why these FX designers always have to feel like they're required to "pull a Matrix" and break new ground each time out is beyond me. Just make the FX good enough to tell the story. Nothing more, nothing less.
I was just throwing writers names out there. The main thing is teaming a great writer with someone who knows the source material like a Loeb, Timm, or Dini! I'm sure they could get Meyer to direct. I happy we agree that Nick Meyer is a good choice.

And I actually agree with you about Welling, but I like Durance a whole hell of alot better than Bosworth. And Spacey is a good actor yes, but I like Rosenbaum more for Lex. Just a preference. But again, Welling is not a good actor. He just hasn't progressed since season three. I feel his limited range holds the show back and I wish they would have cast a better performer. But on that note I feel the same way about Routh. I could go for a total recast, no one from Returns or Smallville. I'm sure a better Lex than Rosey or Spacey is out there, and I know for a fact someone better than Durance is out there, it was just me comparing Durance to Bosworth.

I also agree with you about using a damn Green Screen!

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Old 11-13-2007, 06:50 PM   #1297
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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I was just throwing writers names out there. The main thing is teaming a great writer with someone who knows the source material like a Loeb, Timm, or Dini! I'm sure they could get Meyer to direct. I happy we agree that Nick Meyer is a good choice.

And I actually agree with you about Welling, but I like Durance a whole hell of alot better than Bosworth. And Spacey is a good actor yes, but I like Rosenbaum more for Lex. Just a preference. But again, Welling is not a good actor. He just hasn't progressed since season three. I feel his limited range holds the show back and I wish they would have cast a better performer. But on that note I feel the same way about Routh. I could go for a total recast, no one from Returns or Smallville. I'm sure a better Lex than Rosey or Spacey is out there, and I know for a fact someone better than Durance is out there, it was just me comparing Durance to Bosworth.
The reality of it, is you're not going to see Dini, Loeb, or Tim watching over a Superman movie. Nor are you going to get Rosenbaum or Durance as Lex and Lois.

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Old 11-13-2007, 07:08 PM   #1298
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The reality of it, is you're not going to see Dini, Loeb, or Tim watching over a Superman movie. Nor are you going to get Rosenbaum or Durance as Lex and Lois.
Well, first thing is, I don't know why the movie heads think like that, and two, it's a damn shame. I'm just saying what needs to be done, not what will be. Superman got stuck with a horrible studio! Like I said, Kids, Kryptonian Civil Wars, Immaculate conceptions, Spiders, etc etc. It's a joke!

Like I said, I don't really care if Rosenbaum or Durance were in it!

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Old 11-13-2007, 07:14 PM   #1299
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Like I said, Kids, Kryptonian Civil Wars, Immaculate conceptions, Spiders, etc etc. It's a joke!
at least it's original, and I applaud that.

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Old 11-13-2007, 07:36 PM   #1300
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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I should say that I do not want some attempt at a grand, sweeping epic. I want a great, personal film about the character of Superman, not to mention Lois Lane and Lex Luthor, or whatever villian is choosen. This is the way for Superman to get back on top. Why try to compete with all the jazz of Spider-Man when you can easily defeat it with a great character driven film, a great villian, and the greatest hero of all time. Finally, Superman can reclaim his top spot!

The general public already thinks Superman is bland and boring. We, as Superman fans, know better than that. This is a rich character. Thats why this needs to be a personal film about the character of Superman and the characters of that universe. With a couple bad ass super fights as well!

Every Director and Producers who works on Superman seems to think they need to add or subtract things from the character to make him more interesting. Kids, Kryptonian Civil Wars, Giant Spiders, and an Lois having an immaculate conception. What the f^ck. I got an idea. Tell a story about the character himself for a damn change and everything will be fine!
You want that?

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=287203&page=3

Read the first two posts.

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