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Old 12-05-2007, 05:49 PM   #1651
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
Man the budget for SR was ridiculous to start with. It could have been the same with a lower budget.


He's proud to be thje world's protyector and knows his place in the world in SR. But I'm not sure how is this related to the budget.
We actually agree on something

Might I add, regardless of how any of us feel about Returns, love it or hate it, had Singer played the role of penny pincher in his film about a whole lot of nothing, made Returns for about $125-150, a garunteed sequel would be on the way.

Thank God he blew a wad of cash!

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Old 12-05-2007, 11:24 PM   #1652
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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I guess that means no burning of witches.

Although what about a Spanish Inquisition (I hope you know about "Monty Python")?

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Old 12-05-2007, 11:33 PM   #1653
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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He's not acting as executioner sure, but by deciding who gets locked up he's still acting as judge and jury and setting up his own rules that other people will have to play by or else.

Very un-Superman like.



So then why did he decide to be selfish and to give up his mission to be with Lois in Superman II? Shouldn't her love have built him up and supported him enough to take the morally right path of continuing to protect the earth?

Seems to me that in Superman II, something you seem to think is in character, shows love destroying his ability to do his job.




Well love can sometimes be selfish and Lois has certainly been shown to be selfish when it comes to Superman. IIRC one of her big problems at the end of Superman II was having to share him with the world.

Though really it's not one or the other. Lois can be selfish but overcome that and see that there are things bigger and more important than her's and Superman's feelings.





1) Again with the phrase "sexual irresponsibility" which really makes me think that the problem isn't Superman being irresponsible but Superman being sexual/ I mean it doesn't bother you so much in Kingom Come where his irresponsibility isn't sexual.

2) For someone that goes on about how love is supposed to make one act, why you don't seem to see how tampering with one's mind without their permission isn't the most loving or respectful activity possible? It treats Lois Lane like a child at best and is kind of a creepy violation at worst. If people don't leave without saying good bye to the people they love, then they certainly don't tamper with the minds of the people they love either.

This also makes me think of that idea that's brought up often enough in the comics, most notably I believe in "Must there be a Superman?", which is that if Superman did use all his powers to solve mankinds problems for them that ultimately they'd become a child race, dependents who would never mature and never learn to stand on their own. I guess it explains why there's still hunger and war in a world with Superman but it's also appropo here. By erasing Lois's memory, by solving her problem for her in the most selfish way possible, Superman also denied her the chance to grow, to improve, to stand on her own.

But yeah, only Bryan Singer would have Superman behave out of character.


I

Did you enjoy Kingdom Come? Did you think that was a good portrayal of Superman?

Because in that story Superman makes alot of errors, errors that get people killed, and he learns from them and develops into a better character by the end.

If you answered yes to those questions, I wouldn't be so quick with saying "that is just not who Superman is" if I were you.
OK, so the dreaded database error eliminated my lengthy point by point response. HEre we go with a more succinct answer.


Both KC and SR explore the limits of Superman's emotional stability. In KC, it takes more than the average man would be expected to endure before giving in to his fears etc....

In SR, SUperman gives in when JOe average would easily be able to continue to do the right thing.

COnsequently, in SR Superman is portrayed as less than average guy, whereas in KC he endures far more than the average person before giving in to his fear. That is where the two portrayals differ and why Superman is out of character in SR. SUperman is not less than Joe average guy. He is an example of the best of us. He may be human, but he can endure more than the average guy emotionally as well as physically, MUCH MORE.

There is nothing more wrong about a portrayal of SUperman than as less than Joe average guy. It is the exact opposite of the essence of his character and has been since his creation and has ALWAYS been critical to the content of his character.

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Old 12-06-2007, 12:04 AM   #1654
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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EXACTLY.

I will agree that Superman should have said goodbye to Lois, depending on the circumstances of his departure from Earth. Had I written SUPERMAN RETURNS, I would have just written the story with her having moved on and play with that conflict, not with them being "estranged", though it did create some nice conflict.

However, The point of the character in SUPERMAN RETURNS is that he is portrayed as a more "human" Superman, and his actions definitely were.
More human or just not as good a human. That's what we're talking about. Because it's not like humans don't do both things in the situation we are discussing. Not doing the right thing doesn't make you more human, it just makes you not as good a human.



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To say that the comic book version of Superman would not have done what he did (for the most part) is one thing. But to say it's out of character for Superman, period, given his various interpretations, is debatable at best.
And debating is what we are doing....
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You can say Superman operates at the highest ethical and emotional standards, but clearly this version didn't, and was never meant to, as that was the point of the film's portrayal, that for all his abilities and nobility, he is not perfect.
ANd if SUpeman is supposed to operate at the highest ethical and emotional standard and this (Singer's version) doesn't, then clearly it is out of character for SUperman.
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Nor has he always been so in the comics. Keep in mind: Superman has killed, and he has hurt people, in situations where, had he considered his options, he probably could have found better ways. He has chosen to have a life when in reality, these "higher standards" would never allow him to rest or experience his humanity. His actions have led to problems, deaths, vengeance plots, the endangering of loves ones, etc, over the years.
HOwever, the stories in question give plausible and believable motivations for these actions. SR doesn't have this.
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Please. Don't give me this nonsense about the character being perfect.
I'm not giving you anything about him being perfect. No one says that b/c he would say goodbye means that everything works out perfectly for him. It just doesn't make sense in keeping with his characterization concerning his love for LOis and his willingness to move heaven and Earth for her that he would not say goodbye before leaving given the context of their relationship.
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Also, as I keep reiterating and condemners of Superman keep ignoring, we don't know WHY Superman didn't say goodbye to Lois.
In the movie says it was ' too difficult' and that he 'didn't know how.' THat is just ridiculous. There's no speculation there, that's right from the film. That is the reason the film gives. It just reeks of being out of character.
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We're speculating. For all we know, they had a fling, and then they were done, and he knew it wouldn't work, and so did she, and maybe she didn't even want anything to do with him at the time. We don't know. If that's the case, then he's really under no obligation to say goodbye to her. And for all we know, she hated him at the time and "changed her mind" (because women never do that, right?)
Even when SUperman and Lois have not been together, he still loves her and tries to do the right thing by her.

BTW, SUperman doesn't just have a fling. This also brings up the point that it is out of character for him to be sexually involved with Lois without her knowing his dual identity.

Plus, you're charctization of this 'fling' relationship is completely wrong in terms of what their relationship is- real love. The love of one's life.

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He's talking about Superman's reasoning for doing what he did. But even then...I don't agree with his conclusions. I do find bashing Singer's Superman and embracing Waid's to be a bit hypocritical. Either Superman holds himself to high standards when it comes to his major life events, or he doesn't.
SUperman always holds himself to high standards. THe difference is that in KC, it takes more than the average man would be expected to endure before giving in to his fears etc....

In SR, SUperman gives in when JOe average would easily be able to continue to do the right thing.

COnsequently, in SR Superman is portrayed as less than average guy, whereas in KC he endures far more than the average person before giving in to his fear. That is where the two portrayals differ and why Superman is out of character in SR. SUperman is not less than Joe average guy. He is an example of the best of us. He may be human, but he can endure more than the average guy emotionally as well as physically, MUCH MORE.

There is nothing more wrong about a portrayal of SUperman than as less than Joe average guy. It is the exact opposite of the essence of his character and has been since his creation and has ALWAYS been critical to the content of his character.


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Agreed. Which is why I keep saying "We don't know the exact circumstances".
However, the film gives enough for the viewer to figure out that SUperman screwed up royally because he wasn't man enought to be honest with Lois. That's what the film suggests. It suggests that his emotional threshold is very low and that he is less than Joe average guy. It suggests that the actions in his personal life are inconsistent with the actions in his public life. The 'growth' in his character concerns his personal life.

At the end we are supposed to take away that 'now' both his personal and public life are in congruence and consisent, but that it is something new for SUperman. THis notion is also in direct conflict with the essence of his character.



Agreed.[/quote]

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Old 12-06-2007, 12:11 AM   #1655
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

The average joe is just like everyone else. Superman's problem is that he isn't the average and on Earth he never can be but that's all he really wants to be.

That's why he left; that's why it was so important for him to leave that he wasn't even going to let Lois stop him.

It's the humanity that Superman posesses despite all his great powers; that humanity instilled in him by the Kents that drives him to use his powers to help people and not to rule over them (like he did in Kingdom Come or Superman: King of the World) and to want to fit in with us so badly that he even puts up with being mild-mannered nerd Clark Kent, that has ALWAYS been critical to the content of his character.

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Old 12-06-2007, 12:13 AM   #1656
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

Isn't there like years and years of comics where Superman isn't man enough to be honest with Lois about his duel identity so he uses his powers to make her think she's silly for ever suspecting the truth in the first place?

So much love and respect and masculine honesty there.


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Old 12-06-2007, 01:09 AM   #1657
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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The average joe is just like everyone else. Superman's problem is that he isn't the average and on Earth he never can be but that's all he really wants to be.
SUperman is better than the average joe. If you don't get that you don't understand SUperman.
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That's why he left; that's why it was so important for him to leave that he wasn't even going to let Lois stop him.
He didn't tell Lois goodbye b/c he was less than the average joe.

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It's the humanity that Superman posesses despite all his great powers; that humanity instilled in him by the Kents that drives him to use his powers to help people and not to rule over them (like he did in Kingdom Come or Superman: King of the World) and to want to fit in with us so badly that he even puts up with being mild-mannered nerd Clark Kent, that has ALWAYS been critical to the content of his character.
But b/c he is bette than the average joe he doesn't give in to his human frailties until pushed to a limit far beyond that of the average joe.

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Old 12-06-2007, 01:13 AM   #1658
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Isn't there like years and years of comics where Superman isn't man enough to be honest with Lois about his duel identity so he uses his powers to make her think she's silly for ever suspecting the truth in the first place?
But it is in a completely different context. In SR, they are having sex! In those comics you mention, you forget that he is also constantly AVOIDING a deep relationship with LOis, because otherwise he WOULD have to reveal his dual identity.

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So much love and respect and masculine honesty there.
It's all about the context of their relationship. He keeps it all platonic and non-serious. The moment it gets serious he is obligated to tell her his dual identity, becasue he loves and respects her and he is a paragon of masculine honesty.

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Old 12-06-2007, 02:13 AM   #1659
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

Mego, because Supes didn't know if there were any survivors or what was going to happen while he was away (to himself, I mean), then is it not conceivable that he might have been justifiably concerned that he could perish or never return. And not wanting to face that possibility (which would be understandable; fight or flight), incarnated in Lois, caused him to decide to leave without a goodbye (the mission above himself, even if it killed him).

As Guard also said, we don't know the circumstances under which they left. Perhaps they had a fight, Supes found out about Krypton and left without a word, and the bitterness stewed in Lois. Or perhaps they were quite happy and he just stood her up (in which case, I reckon a slap was in order ).

Meh. I guess in the absence of anything substantial, speculation is all we can do on... honestly, very unimportant things in the grand scheme, especially to the average joe.

Oh God I sound like such a stuck-up loser...

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Old 12-06-2007, 08:02 AM   #1660
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Mego, because Supes didn't know if there were any survivors or what was going to happen while he was away (to himself, I mean), then is it not conceivable that he might have been justifiably concerned that he could perish or never return. And not wanting to face that possibility (which would be understandable; fight or flight), incarnated in Lois, caused him to decide to leave without a goodbye (the mission above himself, even if it killed him).
No. Because that characterization is exactly unlike what we would expect from Superman. Superman doesn't neglect those he loves b/c 'he might never come back.' Average people everyday get deployed in the military everyday to go fight in Iraq or Afganistan. Do they leave their loved ones w/o a goodbye? Superman told Ma Kent what he was doing and said goodbye- why not Lois, the person who means more to him than Ma?

If the average person can do it, then so can Superman. Superman not doing it makes him less than the average person. He is simply not as genuinely good and caring as the average person, or he's psychologically messed up, which is also an incorrect characterization of Superman.

He might put the mission above Lois and above himself, but he would not put it above Lois's feelings.
Quote:
As Guard also said, we don't know the circumstances under which they left. Perhaps they had a fight, Supes found out about Krypton and left without a word, and the bitterness stewed in Lois. Or perhaps they were quite happy and he just stood her up (in which case, I reckon a slap was in order ).
IMO, there are no special circumstances. Otherwise it would have been part of the story. Using 'vague history' and not being really detailed about the circumstance cinematically indicates that there is nothing special about the circumstances. The simplest explanation suffices- they were in a sexual relationship and as he says "It was too difficult to say goodbye." So he left. I don't think Singer intended anymore than that.


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Meh. I guess in the absence of anything substantial, speculation is all we can do on... honestly, very unimportant things in the grand scheme, especially to the average joe.

Oh God I sound like such a stuck-up loser...
Do you see wyat I'm getting at above with what we do know, that the absence of details are a way of allowing the viewer to put the pieces of the puzzle together w/o getting bogged down in exposition? The intention is the simpleset anwer as stated above, the same with the paternity question- Lois had sex with Richard and Superman so close together that she assumed Richard had to be the father.

There's nothing else to suggest exceptionally long gestational periods or that Kryptonians reproduce by some other method than sexual reproduction. Those aren't addressed because the simplest answer is what the filmaker is conveying, just w/o a lot of exposition.

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Old 12-06-2007, 08:18 AM   #1661
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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No. Because that characterization is exactly unlike what we would expect from Superman. Superman doesn't neglect those he loves b/c 'he might never come back.' Average people everyday get deployed in the military everyday to go fight in Iraq or Afganistan. Do they leave their loved ones w/o a goodbye? Superman told Ma Kent what he was doing and said goodbye- why not Lois, the person who means more to him than Ma?

If the average person can do it, then so can Superman. Superman not doing it makes him less than the average person. He is simply not as genuinely good and caring as the average person, or he's psychologically messed up, which is also an incorrect characterization of Superman.
Well THATS funny, because in Superman:Exile, he leaves Earth with NO INTENTION OF RETURNING, and doesnt say anything to Lois. Funny Huh? .

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Old 12-06-2007, 08:41 AM   #1662
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Well THATS funny, because in Superman:Exile, he leaves Earth with NO INTENTION OF RETURNING, and doesnt say anything to Lois. Funny Huh? .
Exile is a different story. He left after he killed the kryptonians because he felt Earth needed to be protected from himself. Not for selfish reasons.

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Old 12-06-2007, 08:54 AM   #1663
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Well THATS funny, because in Superman:Exile, he leaves Earth with NO INTENTION OF RETURNING, and doesnt say anything to Lois. Funny Huh? .
Actually, not at all. It's a different context. At the time SUperman and Lois were not involved at all, instead the most important people in his life were Ma and Pa, Lana and Matrix. I believe Lois was dating Jose Delgado at the time and she and Superman in post-Crisis continuity had yet to become romantically linked, therefor he had no obligation to her, unlike SR in which he is involved in a sexual relationship with Lois. It isn't until after he returns from space that he begins to date her as Clark, not SUperman, and then he reveals his identity to her when it gets serious. (Superman #50)

As a matter of fact here's the page from the comic where he says goodbye to them-



Funny, huh? Doing exactly as I've suggested he should do.

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Old 12-06-2007, 08:55 AM   #1664
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Exile is a different story. He left after he killed the kryptonians because he felt Earth needed to be protected from himself. Not for selfish reasons.
Oh yeah, and that too!

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Old 12-06-2007, 09:32 AM   #1665
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

What about higher standards?

And we all know KINGDOM COME was spot on...

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Old 12-06-2007, 09:49 AM   #1666
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What about higher standards?
Yes, you see when pushed the limit, even Superman is not above reproach for his actions, so much so that he chooses to exile himself and make sure he hasn't become a danger to those he is trying to protect.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:19 AM   #1667
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You don't get sarcasm do you?

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Old 12-06-2007, 10:32 AM   #1668
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Exile is a different story. He left after he killed the kryptonians because he felt Earth needed to be protected from himself. Not for selfish reasons.
SO leaving to help possible survivors of Krypton is a selfish reason? Yeah ok.

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Actually, not at all. It's a different context. At the time SUperman and Lois were not involved at all, instead the most important people in his life were Ma and Pa, Lana and Matrix. I believe Lois was dating Jose Delgado at the time and she and Superman in post-Crisis continuity had yet to become romantically linked, therefor he had no obligation to her, unlike SR in which he is involved in a sexual relationship with Lois. It isn't until after he returns from space that he begins to date her as Clark, not SUperman, and then he reveals his identity to her when it gets serious. (Superman #50)

As a matter of fact here's the page from the comic where he says goodbye to them-



Funny, huh? Doing exactly as I've suggested he should do.
But he is still in love with Lois at the time, and as Superman, there is an attraction between them at the time also, and in Exile, he even expresses regret that he couldnt say goodbye to Lois(JUST like he does in SR, watch his face when Lois is asking Clark about Superman outside the planet, its THEN he realises he messed up), funny how you didnt show that page .

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Old 12-06-2007, 10:57 AM   #1669
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SO leaving to help possible survivors of Krypton is a selfish reason? Yeah ok.



But he is still in love with Lois at the time, and as Superman, there is an attraction between them at the time also, and in Exile, he even expresses regret that he couldnt say goodbye to Lois(JUST like he does in SR, watch his face when Lois is asking Clark about Superman outside the planet, its THEN he realises he messed up), funny how you didnt show that page .
Because the specific context of the story is entirely different. It is their sexual relationship that obligates Superman to say goodbye in SR. Not anything else. He may love her in the Exile story, but they don't have a relationship. He has not committed to her in anyway. He is not obligated to say goodbye. The context is completely different. In SR he IS obligated to her b/c he is involved with her sexually, in Exile they have no deeper relationship beyond reporter and celebrity. The context is entirely different, therefore his obligations are different and his actions are different. In the context of Exile, Lana is his best friend, she knows his dual identity, he is committed to her as his best friend, he is not committed to LOis. DOes he love her? Sure, but he is not committed to her.

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Old 12-06-2007, 11:52 AM   #1670
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

Sex doesn't necessarily obligate him; it's not a contract. It's his feelings, if anything, that would make him do or not do something; not an attitude of "well, I slept with her so I guess that means I've have to go say bye to her".

You're putting your own sexual morality on Superman.


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Old 12-06-2007, 12:15 PM   #1671
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No^ Superman is a person of hight standards of morality...

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Old 12-06-2007, 01:33 PM   #1672
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Not saying good bye or having sex with Lois are hardly the greatest sins in the world. He's done worse in the comics and the movies. The mindwipe kiss from Superman II comes to mind. . .

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Old 12-06-2007, 02:13 PM   #1673
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More human or just not as good a human. That's what we're talking about. Because it's not like humans don't do both things in the situation we are discussing. Not doing the right thing doesn't make you more human, it just makes you not as good a human.
"Not as good as you could be". What a concept.

First, Superman is a guy who tends to hammer away at people when he gets mad or to solve his problems, so let's not go on pretending his morals are as high as they could be.

Second, if you're Catholic, then you know that humans are inherently flawed. That we "fall short of the glory of God". We screw up. I'm not saying it's ok to screw up all the time, or in certain ways, but to falter because of emotional reasons is a very, very human thing.

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And if SUpeman is supposed to operate at the highest ethical and emotional standard and this (Singer's version) doesn't, then clearly it is out of character for SUperman.
I don't think Superman has ever operated at that level. This is where we differ. I think, even with Superman, there's room for improvement. Superman's a very good person. He's got a lot of compassion, and he understands his duty to the world because of what he can do...but he isn't perfect. He's got some flaws.

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However, the stories in question give plausible and believable motivations for these actions. SR doesn't have this.
Debatable. The average person does not give up on those around them when their loved ones die, so why would Superman suddenly abandon all the good he can do because Lois is dead?

Re: RETURNS, it depeneds on if you believe doubt and fear are plausible motivations for not doing something. I'd say they are. I'm not saying letting doubt cause you not to do what would be harder is right, but this is a plausible and believeable motivation for someone to avoid a goodbye or updating someone about their whereabouts.

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I'm not giving you anything about him being perfect.
True, but you seem to misunderstand Superman's level of morality. You seem to think he should operate at the highest standard. That tends to mean near-perfect actions, does it not?

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No one says that b/c he would say goodbye means that everything works out perfectly for him. It just doesn't make sense in keeping with his characterization concerning his love for LOis and his willingness to move heaven and Earth for her that he would not say goodbye before leaving given the context of their relationship.
You don't know the context of their relationship, though. This is why I keep asking if you know the details of their relationship when he left. How did he feel about her when he left Earth? If they were in a relationship, isn't it logical that he'd have wanted to stay, or would have told her?

Him not telling her points to things "not working out". It tells me he was not happy with how things were going in relation to her. If he was so lonely that he sought out Krypton...it seems rather obvious that their relationship was not what you claim it must have been.

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In the movie says it was ' too difficult' and that he 'didn't know how.' THat is just ridiculous.
Yes it is. The point of him doing this is to show that this version of Superman is flawed, imperfect, all too human.

What's not ridiculous is if Superman decided they weren't going to work out and moved on before this happened. Maybe Lois even KNEW they weren't going to work out, and they'd discussed it. Maybe she just wanted him to say goodbye, and he didn't.

Maybe they weren't even in a relationship when he left Earth.

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There's no speculation there, that's right from the film. That is the reason the film gives. It just reeks of being out of character.
But the film never tells us the context of their relationship when he left.

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SUperman always holds himself to high standards. THe difference is that in KC, it takes more than the average man would be expected to endure before giving in to his fears etc....

In SR, SUperman gives in when JOe average would easily be able to continue to do the right thing.
As I've pointed out before, the average Joe doesn't give up on life and those around them because their loved one dies or because someone likes one other person's methods more than they do the average Joe's. So basically, the Superman in KINGDOM COME does what you accuse the character of doing in SUPERMAN RETURNS. He doesn't do what COULD be done.

And once again, you don't know the context of his departure. Maybe they were fighting or something. Split up. Not together. We. Don't. Know.

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That is where the two portrayals differ and why Superman is out of character in SR. SUperman is not less than Joe average guy. He is an example of the best of us.
True, he's an example of how hope, compassion and the proper application of great power can better the world. But he's not neccessarily an example of the best in relationships.

However, the film gives enough for the viewer to figure out that SUperman screwed up royally because he wasn't man enought to be honest with Lois. That's what the film suggests. It suggests that his emotional threshold is very low and that he is less than Joe average guy.

I'm sorry..."emotional threshold?"

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It suggests that the actions in his personal life are inconsistent with the actions in his public life.
What a concept. A public figure who appears to have no issues having person problems...

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At the end we are supposed to take away that 'now' both his personal and public life are in congruence and consisent, but that it is something new for SUperman. THis notion is also in direct conflict with the essence of his character.
I think you're reading way too much into the film.

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But b/c he is bette than the average joe he doesn't give in to his human frailties until pushed to a limit far beyond that of the average joe.
What limit? His wife was murdered. People have loved ones murdered every day. It doesn't cause them to shut themselves away and pout about it.

Ok...I think I've beat that point to death at this point.

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But it is in a completely different context. In SR, they are having sex! In those comics you mention, you forget that he is also constantly AVOIDING a deep relationship with LOis, because otherwise he WOULD have to reveal his dual identity.
That is not why Clark avoids a deep relationship with Lois. And it's not just Clark who avoids it.

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Average people everyday get deployed in the military everyday to go fight in Iraq or Afganistan. Do they leave their loved ones w/o a goodbye? Superman told Ma Kent what he was doing and said goodbye- why not Lois, the person who means more to him than Ma?
Good question? Do YOU know why? Do you know the exact circumstances of their relationship before he left Earth?

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IMO, there are no special circumstances.
What if they just wanted nothing to do with each other at that point?

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Otherwise it would have been part of the story. Using 'vague history' and not being really detailed about the circumstance cinematically indicates that there is nothing special about the circumstances.
No it doesn't.

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The simplest explanation suffices- they were in a sexual relationship and as he says "It was too difficult to say goodbye." So he left. I don't think Singer intended anymore than that.
Then why did Superman leave to find Krypton, instead of just leaving, period?

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Do you see wyat I'm getting at above with what we do know, that the absence of details are a way of allowing the viewer to put the pieces of the puzzle together w/o getting bogged down in exposition? The intention is the simpleset anwer as stated above, the same with the paternity question- Lois had sex with Richard and Superman so close together that she assumed Richard had to be the father.
It's pretty clear that Lois knows Richard isn't the father in SUPERMAN RETURNS.

And if she had sex with him a while after Superman, so what? It's 2007.
While you may think this is a horrible thing to do, Lois probably doesn't. She's always been a pretty modern woman. And so it works for the character.

Even if you don't like the morality of it.

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There's nothing else to suggest exceptionally long gestational periods or that Kryptonians reproduce by some other method than sexual reproduction.
True. The movies state neither thing. And all the comics really suggest is that Superman and Lois can't mate at ALL.

So...once again...we don't know. It seems silly to condemn someone for one element of something when you don't know the details of his situation.

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Actually, not at all. It's a different context. At the time SUperman and Lois were not involved at all, instead the most important people in his life were Ma and Pa, Lana and Matrix. I believe Lois was dating Jose Delgado at the time and she and Superman in post-Crisis continuity had yet to become romantically linked, therefor he had no obligation to her, unlike SR in which he is involved in a sexual relationship with Lois. It isn't until after he returns from space that he begins to date her as Clark, not SUperman, and then he reveals his identity to her when it gets serious. (Superman #50)
They may not have been romantically linked. However, they were good friends at the time, and he cared greatly for her. So him not saying goodbye there doesn't help matters.

And since you think not being romantically linked in the comics means he has no obligation to his friend to say goodbye and update her on his whereabouts...then how do you know what their situation was in SUPERMAN RETURNS, and if he had any obligation toward her at that point?

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You're putting your own sexual morality on Superman.
Exactly. And doing so without KNOWING ANY OF THE DETAILS.

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Old 12-07-2007, 12:17 AM   #1674
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Sex doesn't necessarily obligate him; it's not a contract.
But sex is by definition not solely about oneself. By it's inherent consequences it is necessarily something that affect your partner as well as potential children.

By definition, being sexually responsible requires you to respect your partner. Whether you are mature enough to do that is a separate issue. If you don't realize it it doesn't mean that it is not there. Just like driving a car requires you to act responsibly, being in a sexual relationship requires the same thing. Not everyone realizes it, but it doesn't mean that the inherent responsibility is not there.
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It's his feelings, if anything, that would make him do or not do something; not an attitude of "well, I slept with her so I guess that means I've have to go say bye to her".
It's his feelings that would bring about his moral standards, not the other way around. If he believes in mutual respect, truth and justice and believes that what is best for children is a priority, then this will bring about a high standard of sexual responsibility.

If he has high standards of morals and ethics in every other area of his life why wouldn'the also have high morals and ethics when it comes to sexual responsibility.
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You're putting your own sexual morality on Superman.
So you're saying that I have higher moral and ethical standards than Superman? Thanks! I dont believe that to be true, unless of course you are only referring to the Singer version.

But really you are doing the same thing. The difference is that Superman's characterization in his many incarnations is more in line with my ethical and moral standards, I'm not better than Superman, we just happen to share many of the same moral standards. SUperman in SR seems to share your moral and ethical standards when it comes to sexual responsibility.

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Old 12-07-2007, 12:19 AM   #1675
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Default Re: Scaling back the budget/Wrath of Khan theory

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Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Not saying good bye or having sex with Lois are hardly the greatest sins in the world. He's done worse in the comics and the movies. The mindwipe kiss from Superman II comes to mind. . .
I think you are totally wrong about that...

Who suffered consequences from SUperman's amnesia kiss? No one.

Who suffered from Superman's sexual irresponsibility in SR? Superman, Ma KEnt, Lois, Richard and most importantly- Jason.

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