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Old 01-15-2015, 01:39 AM   #1
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 3

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Old 01-15-2015, 01:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Old 01-15-2015, 01:39 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 3

7 Major Problems With Batman Returns


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Old 01-15-2015, 06:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

7. Kevin Smith and Mike Bernadin put it best. The real title is "Batman Returns to his own film every 15 minutes or so" but WB decided that was too long.

6. Yeah Selina's origin is ugh. So she drinks milk??? OK and she was a secretary? Um I guess. That I never bought. Does she have to be a hooker? Well, no, not really. But it never cried of secretary to me. Plus, why did she become Catwoman? To dish out justice to that rapist? To steal like in the comics? To kill Max Shreck? I doubt it because she waits until the end and could have just shot him in the meantime.

5. Penguin is very cringeworthy, he makes you feel so uncomfortable. I give Burton some credit for trying something new with him. Penguin has evolved over the years, because let's face it old school gold/silver age Penguin isn't that interesting.

4. Mayor during December don't forget that.

3. Yet I watched Returns on netflix like a month ago. Then I got the Batman blu-ray for x-mas and wow. You would think with a bigger budget and beign a sequel they'd up the ante but they went backwards. The sets and crowd looks much better in the first.

2. But the Batman killing someone with a grin never bothered me and still doesn't. The article gets it right but I can't help it, it really entertains me. Maybe because it's Keaton I do not know.

1. Yeah, to hell with this movie with all its villains. But technically Nolans had alot too...
Begins - Ra's al Ghul, Scarecrow, Victor Zsazz. Falcone
TDK - Joker, Maroni, Two-Face, Scarecrow
TDKR - Bane, Talia, Dagget, Scarecrow
OK maybe some of those don't count but it can be done to some degree.

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Old 01-17-2015, 08:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

#3, @ about the 6:30 mark here:

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Old 01-17-2015, 09:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

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#3, @ about the 6:30 mark here:

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Yeah I cannot deny the make-up effects on Penguin were good.

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Old 01-17-2015, 08:51 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

Could've done without Jigsaw and The Thing in that list. I was never impressed with the make up for either character, but other than that a pretty good list.

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Old 01-18-2015, 12:28 AM   #8
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Could've done without Jigsaw and The Thing in that list. I was never impressed with the make up for either character, but other than that a pretty good list.
Yeah the Thing play-set for kids with the mask and gloves looked roughly the same as the movie.

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Old 01-18-2015, 05:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 3

7. This complaint doesn't hold much water. I remember Travesty did a screen time ratio of Batman appearances across all the films, and it's pretty much the same. In fact, the Burton films have more Batman screen time than the Nolan films. The Burton films are accused of sidelining Batman for the villains, but the statistics don't lie.

Look here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=335105

The other points raised are all subjective.

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Old 01-18-2015, 05:55 PM   #10
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Yeah, I was going to comment on that, but I didn't care to.

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Old 01-18-2015, 06:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 3

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7. This complaint doesn't hold much water. I remember Travesty did a screen time ratio of Batman appearances across all the films, and it's pretty much the same. In fact, the Burton films have more Batman screen time than the Nolan films. The Burton films are accused of sidelining Batman for the villains, but the statistics don't lie.

Look here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=335105

The other points raised are all subjective.
That means nothing. You going to try and say that chunks of screen time like him just walking around beating up Penguin's weird clowns makes the story about him and not the villains?

Stats lie when they don't tell you what the screen time is being used for. It sure wasn't for Batman focused story over the villains. Also want to bet who'd be the big loser if you added in the Bruce Wayne screen time, too? This movies goes through about 20 minutes of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, from the part where Penguin meets Schreck all the way through to where Penguin rescues the Mayor's kid. Batman and Bruce absence.


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Old 01-18-2015, 06:09 PM   #12
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Old 01-18-2015, 06:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 3

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7. This complaint doesn't hold much water. I remember Travesty did a screen time ratio of Batman appearances across all the films, and it's pretty much the same. In fact, the Burton films have more Batman screen time than the Nolan films. The Burton films are accused of sidelining Batman for the villains, but the statistics don't lie.

Look here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=335105

The other points raised are all subjective.
Very interesting thread (the one about the Batman screen time). The results of it don't surprise me though.

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Old 01-18-2015, 06:25 PM   #14
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Tell me about it

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Old 01-18-2015, 10:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

Boy, some people just want to be right no matter what. lol

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Old 01-26-2015, 06:59 AM   #16
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Old 01-26-2015, 09:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

There's a ton of crazy fan art for this movie.

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Old 01-26-2015, 10:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

I somewhat agree that it isn't the amount of Batman screentime which makes Batman Returns less of a Batman movie; it's the lack of focus on Bruce/Batman in terms of the story.

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Old 01-26-2015, 12:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

The thing is there is a lot of focus on Bruce/Batman in terms of the story. To understand what I mean though you must first understand the cinematic language that Batman Returns speaks in; German Expressionism. Just because it doesn't "focus" on those characters in more conventional terms doesn't mean that it's not there. It just means that it likely went over your head.

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Old 01-26-2015, 12:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

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The thing is there is a lot of focus on Bruce/Batman in terms of the story. To understand what I mean though you must first understand the cinematic language that Batman Returns speaks in; German Expressionism. Just because it doesn't "focus" on those characters in more conventional terms doesn't mean that it's not there. It just means that it likely went over your head.
Eh, I don't think anything went over my head, and I do understand what you're saying. In Burton's Batman films, Bruce/Batman doesn't play the kind of "in your face" role that Bale's Bruce/Batman does in the TDKT. Also, Bruce's story arc isn't really explicitly stated or as on-the-nose as it was in each of the Nolan films.

However, I'd argue that the Bruce Wayne story arc and characterization in Batman 1989 was better and came across more clearly as the focus of the film, in spite of his limited dialogue and the Joker arc playing a huge role throughout the film. We were able to peel back the layers of Bruce in B89 through the dialogue of other characters and with that brief flashback. IMO, the focus on the character in B89 was a triumph in how to deliver a non-traditional origin story of a superhero (the opposite of what we saw in Batman Begins), whilst still completely capturing the essence of the character and hitting all the necessary beats.

In terms of your indication that Batman Returns does have the proper focus on Bruce/Batman, but in a German Expressionistic manner -- which communicates inner experiences/emotions through external means/objects (the villains) -- it is an analysis that works, to some extent. How successfully? That's up for interpretation, but the focus on the trio of villains -- Schrek, Penguin, Catwoman -- went a little overboard for my tastes. While some like yourself may be perfectly content with the understated, subjective focus on Batman in the film (and overall lack of attention), I can understand why others might not be.

Also, the most common criticism of BR from Batman fans is that it's a great Tim Burton movie/story, but not the greatest Batman film. That's something I can understand and even agree with.

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Old 01-27-2015, 01:52 AM   #21
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There's a ton of crazy fan art for this movie.
... You mean "crazy" in a good way, right?


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Old 01-27-2015, 12:06 PM   #22
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However, I'd argue that the Bruce Wayne story arc and characterization in Batman 1989 was better and came across more clearly as the focus of the film, in spite of his limited dialogue and the Joker arc playing a huge role throughout the film. We were able to peel back the layers of Bruce in B89 through the dialogue of other characters and with that brief flashback. IMO, the focus on the character in B89 was a triumph in how to deliver a non-traditional origin story of a superhero (the opposite of what we saw in Batman Begins), whilst still completely capturing the essence of the character and hitting all the necessary beats.
This I can agree with though it is still just a matter of preference. I'm sure there are people out there who find a haunted and "trapped in the abyss of his own soul" Batman arc like the one in Returns more appealing. Especially since it's ground that isn't often explored with the character in most media.

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Also, the most common criticism of BR from Batman fans is that it's a great Tim Burton movie/story, but not the greatest Batman film. That's something I can understand and even agree with.
Agreed.

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Old 01-27-2015, 03:20 PM   #23
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This I can agree with though it is still just a matter of preference. I'm sure there are people out there who find a haunted and "trapped in the abyss of his own soul" Batman arc like the one in Returns more appealing. Especially since it's ground that isn't often explored with the character in most media.
Yup. It wasn't really explored enough in Batman Returns, if you ask me.

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Old 01-27-2015, 03:27 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

I was satisfied with the way it was executed myself.

One thing about Batman Returns. It may not be the greatest Batman film but it's certainly one of the boldest along with The Dark Knight Rises. Only differences between the two for me is that I actually rewatch BR every now and then but can't find myself to rewatch TDKR at all. TDKR is definitely my least favorite Batman film so far without question.

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Old 01-29-2015, 10:04 AM   #25
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