Freedom of Religion in America?

[Carcharodon]

Originally Posted by cerealkiller182

Thats where my beliefs are at but i didnt really think that was agnosticism, because i thought the belief that God doesnt exist was one part of it.

That's....that's atheism.

[cerealkiller182]

Originally Posted by Carcharodon

Faith and belief have no place with logic. I believe that faith is a completely different form of understanding.

There's no arrogance there. It's a pretty basic philosophy. Sorry you got all butt-hurt over it.

EDIT: For clarification, I'm not saying that faith is invalid. If you think that, then you've missed my point entirely.

I see faith and logic working cooperatively. I accept truth but until theres truth about the unknown then I continue to have faith in my own assumptions. This has little to do with topic at hand but i just wanted to explain where my head's at as far as perception.

That said, arrogance didnt come from your specific beliefs, but from your last statement taking my admittedly naive understanding of something I was looking for clarity on and implying that your understanding is superior even after i admited i didnt know much

but water under the bridge at this point

[cerealkiller182]

Originally Posted by Carcharodon

That's....that's atheism.

Not the sole belief that God doesnt exist, but the belief that either possibility is possible where jag seemed to describe a belief in a higher power/supreme being concept with little regarding the nonexistence of it.

[Carcharodon]

Originally Posted by cerealkiller182

I see faith and logic working cooperatively. I accept truth but until theres truth about the unknown then I continue to have faith in my own assumptions. This has little to do with topic at hand but i just wanted to explain where my head's at as far as perception.

That said, arrogance didnt come from your specific beliefs, but from your last statement taking my admittedly naive understanding of something I was looking for clarity on and implying that your understanding is superior even after i admited i didnt know much

but water under the bridge at this point

I'm not trying to imply superiority at all. I happen to believe that the two modes of thought are completely separate. That's not to say that they can't co-exist, but what I am saying is that they differ at the very core of their respective philosophies.

[jaguarr]

Originally Posted by cerealkiller182

Not the sole belief that God doesnt exist, but the belief that either possibility is possible where jag seemed to describe a belief in a higher power/supreme being concept with little regarding the nonexistence of it.

I was just giving you my personal belief. Agnostics are open to the possibility of there not being any higher power just as much as they are open to the possibility that there is one.

jag

[cerealkiller182]

Originally Posted by jaguarr

I was just giving you my personal belief. Agnostics are open to the possibility of there not being any higher power just as much as they are open to the possibility that there is one.

jag

O Ok I see.

Well then me and you see eye to eye as far as personal beliefs especially on "trappings of religion"

[Bill]

Originally Posted by cerealkiller182

O Ok I see.

Well then me and you see eye to eye as far as personal beliefs especially on "trappings of religion"

There is no such thing as an "agnostic." Agnosticism is not a third option between being atheist and theist. Theism and atheism refer to belief, gnosticism and agnosticism refer to knowledge. If you don't believe in a god or gods, but are unsure as to whether they exist, you are an agnostic atheist. If you believe in a god, but are not sure of their existence, you are an agnostic theist. If you do believe in god and are sure of their existence, then you are a gnostic theist. If you don't believe in a god or gods, and you are sure they exist, then you are a gnostic atheist.

I hope that clears up the distinction between the terms and how they are related.

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by Bill

There is no such thing as an "agnostic." Agnosticism is not a third option between being atheist and theist. Theism and atheism refer to belief, gnosticism and agnosticism refer to knowledge. If you don't believe in a god or gods, but are unsure as to whether they exist, you are an agnostic atheist. If you believe in a god, but are not sure of their existence, you are an agnostic theist. If you do believe in god and are sure of their existence, then you are a gnostic theist. If you don't believe in a god or gods, and you are sure they exist, then you are a gnostic atheist.

I hope that clears up the distinction between the terms and how they are related.

Sigh.

Agnostic
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

[Bill]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Sigh.

And that definition refers to the knowledge aspect of the term and doesn't quantify it completely. Agnosticism refers to knowledge and doesn't disallow a person being either atheist or theist. It's a limited and incomplete definition.

Read.

[LegendaryCaleb]

Originally Posted by Manic

"Love thy enemy. If he should strike thee, turn thy other cheek, bendth over, and tellth them to kiss it."


It's in the Bible.

I wish...

[QueerMike]

Originally Posted by Superman4ever

Who's this crybaby?

[Bill]

Penn

[raybia]

bump

[Arkady Rossovich]

I think the few who dislike being around other faiths have somehow gotten into the mainstream and others think it's ok to say "if my faith can't be shown,then none should be shown.". America is Christian and always will be,but the ignorance has gotten a bit thicker and is more openly shown.

[Aristotle]

My confession:

**** Ben Stein. **** him and all the other self-loathing Jews that have defected to the Republicans. It's one thing for a Christian to be on that side, but Jews know better.

Honestly and ****BenSteiningly,
Jonathan Nathan

[Alexia Dark]

Originally Posted by raybia

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a crache, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship movie stars and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.

In light of the many jokes we se nd to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are,but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was mur dered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

Funny how when you forward this message, y ou will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in. My best regards.

Honestly and respectfully,
Ben Stein

Right. Natural disasters are the result of us ignoring God .

No, natural disasters, murders, and disease have always existed. In fact, the quality of life now is hundreds of times better than back when the majority of people prayed openly every day (or were forced to out of fear of being jailed, commited, or killed). The only difference now is that violence isn't permitted just because 'God said so' (in most regions of the world, anyway). Whether it be the natural course of this Earth, global warming, or whether we just think things are worse than they are, I'm very sure its not the result of people choosing not to accept the harsh, unjust, fear-driven traditions of the past.

Have a nice day .

[gap5ewl]

Ok Mr. Stein so does this "religion in schools" thing include other doctrines besides the Bible? I didn't see anything in their about students being allowed to get teached the Koran or learning of the gods of Hinduism or even being allowed to not have any religious affiliations at all. Does he not realize America is one of the most diverse nations on earth? Not everyone here uses the bible as a form of spiritual growth.

[Aristotle]

Ben Stein is a self-hating Jew. Don't pay attention to him.

[psychocheeseman]

My confession.

I am an atheist. My ancestors were probably not. I like christmas. I like christmas trees. I like giving and recieving presents. I even read the bible at christmas to better understand the cultural significance of the event and muse on how differently we celebrate christmas today, compared with other cultures throughout history. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say "merry christmas" to me. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year.

The difference is i don't write articles about how wonderfully religiously tolerant i am, whilst simultaneously blaming a group of society for all the wrongs of the world.

Originally Posted by raybia

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are,but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

i know the lizard already laid the smack down to this but anyway...

This argument is perhaps the single reason why i am anti religions. It suggests that the world (or society on the smaller scale) would be a much better place if everyone followed the same religion as they did. and although it might be true (not the supernatural part obviously - but the effectiveness of facism) it means getting rid of all other religions (and us non believers) stiffling liberties etc etc.

we know the causes of Hurricanes, there is nothing supernatural about them. It's the kind of thing early man may have suspected to be a force of a god. Now we know better. But some still expect their god to prevent them. When he doesn't they need to make up reasons why...and what better way than to blame us rational folk?

Originally Posted by raybia

The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. ..
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

not sure where this links with being less religious. I mean, the stats tend to show the opposite for the USA..

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

75% of population is Christian, 10% is atheist. 83% of Prison population is Christian, only 0.2% is Atheist... Personally, i think this data is misleading, Christianity is the most popular religion in America, and many people convert to find comfort once they are inside - it is not an indication of what their preference was on teh outsidde. Nor should it be used as an argument against christianity in any way.

No religion has a monopoly on bad parents.

[bunk]

Why does he refer to America as an "Atheist Country"? Based on the various places I've resided, I just can't agree with that at all.

[Aristotle]

Because conservative white American wealthy males think they're persecuted, despite the fact that they own the world.

[SuperFerret]

Originally Posted by psychocheeseman

we know the causes of Hurricanes, there is nothing supernatural about them. It's the kind of thing early man may have suspected to be a force of a god. Now we know better.

Do we now? According to my sources, a "hurricane" is a "regionally specific names for a strong "tropical cyclone". A tropical cyclone is the generic term for a non-frontal synoptic scale low-pressure system over tropical or sub-tropical waters with organized convection (i.e. thunderstorm activity) and definite cyclonic surface wind circulation." (cited from here.) Furthermore, the causes are described as low air pressure caused by a build up of heat due to the lack of wind shear. Now, what causes this? Let's find out. (cited from here,)

Wind shear, the supposed culprit here, is "the change in wind speed or direction with height in the atmosphere." (again, cited here.) So, a hurricane is caused when the wind stops changing it's direction and allows heat to build, thus causing a drop in pressure. Or something, its late, and honestly all this is moot in regards to my point, but I thought it'd be an interesting lead up.

My point, finally, is this: whatever proof we have of the causes of hurricanes, or any natural phenomenon, is known to us only by observation of it's occurance. We, as humans, have no proof one way or another that the wind's direction, or the way air pressure changes, or whatever is or is not occuring due to the "programming" of a higher power. Perhaps all we've observed and studied and recorded as "fact" is just a random occurance, or perhaps it's a more sophisticated and studied version of the old myths that "Thor willed it to rain and thunder". Maybe when Thor willed it, to the uneducated witness, the wind picked up and swirled and wreaked havoc as is typical of a hurricane, but in actuality all the wind shear and low pressure happened as well, unbeknownst to ancient man. Maybe not. Hell, maybe both.

We, as humans, only know our perspective of the world. We know not whether the weather is an extension of a will or is random. We know not if we are even the only intelligent sentience in the universe, or even on this planet. It's arrogant to claim that we know anything but our own perspective.

[Aristotle]

It's all well and good to remain cognitive of the extremely limited capacity of the human mind, to remind oneself that even the most certain of facts is taken on blind faith, but for functional living and discussion, hurricanes are caused by all that low-pressure and wind ********. They're not caused by an angry God. To say that God and other entirely metaphysical principles can be mixed with the concrete in that way is to cheapen both metaphysics and physics.

[SuperFerret]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

It's all well and good to remain cognitive of the extremely limited capacity of the human mind, to remind oneself that even the most certain of facts is taken on blind faith, but for functional living and discussion, hurricanes are caused by all that low-pressure and wind ********. They're not caused by an angry God. To say that God and other entirely metaphysical principles can be mixed with the concrete in that way is to cheapen both metaphysics and physics.

According to your beliefs, others might disagree. Belief is a personal thing, unique to each individual. I, for one, believe in God, but I don't feel that God sends hurricanes and the like to "punish". I feel that God is somewhat above that, and leaves any type of judgement for the afterlife. But that's just me, as I said, it's all individual.

[Aristotle]

Belief is a component of metaphysics. Natural disasters are physical phenomena. It is nonsensical to apply a metaphysical solution to a physical question, just as it is nonsensical to apply a physical solution to a metaphysical question.

Of course, according to my beliefs, we don't really KNOW anything except our own consciousness, but in order to live a functional lifestyle, we have to accept certain things on blind faith. One of those is science. If we stop accepting science on blind faith, we no longer have a reason to believe in even gravity, or the inevitability of the world's rotation and revolution.