Discussion: Healthcare

[Malice]

This along with cap and trade are some of the dumbest things I have seen in awhile.

Noone is saying Healthcare doesn't need work.
The US's Healthcare is the best in the world. That does not mean, our coverage is the best or its too damn expensive....

GO AFTER THE DEFICIENCIES...NOT THE PROFICIENCY

Go after Tort reform....amongst other things (I have heard em a 100 times, but they are eluding me)

To me its dumb to redesign the entire car, when a few parts go bad...fix the parts...

[Hobodeluxe]

Originally Posted by SuBe

If there is a "Public Option", can I opt out of paying for it through my taxes?

yeah if you choose to keep what you have then you shouldn't pay anything unless you make over a million a year(household). and then it will be a 5.4% increase.

over 350k sees a 1% increase.

or at least that's what it was a few days ago. I don't think any of that changed with the compromise they made today.

[chaseter]

Making someone pay $54,000 a year extra, on top of other taxes, that makes 1 million is stupid. Punishing the succesful and rewarding failure is one of the most stupid mentalities to have and this government is pushing that metality full steam ahead.

[BlackestNight]

Never mind

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by SuBe

If there is a "Public Option", can I opt out of paying for it through my taxes?

No. If that were so, then all the people with healthcare wouldn't want to pay additional taxes to be put on crappy government healthcare, especially the wealthy. The wealthy are going to be taxed the highest to pay for this crap so more than likely, they will be paying additional taxes for government healthcare and then keeping their own healthcare plan. Which, is extremely stupid on our government's behalf.

[Hobodeluxe]

Originally Posted by chaseter

Making someone pay $54,000 a year extra, on top of other taxes, that makes 1 million is stupid. Punishing the succesful and rewarding failure is one of the most stupid mentalities to have and this government is pushing that metality full steam ahead.

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

Welfare has its limits ...and frankly...I have had my limits with welfare.

Tax the rich more, they will start leaving, and remember, the rich are the ones that employ people. That is the truth of the matter.

Look at New York and California...people with money are leaving left and right to go places that have lower taxes...

Why not actually put together a HelthCare bill that is not astinine and actually does something other than bankrupt the country.

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

So doing nothing and reaping benefits from the wealthy is the American way? Is it the American dream to come to this country, not have a job, have 14 kids, and live off of welfare and free handouts

The top tax rate has been lowered by Bush, it will be raised now that Obama is on a spending spree and wanting the wealthy to pay for his handout programs.

It is fine to have an adjusted tax rate per income level. That pays for defense and infrastructure. But, mega taxing the wealthy/succesful to pay for programs that give to the poor only enables that behavior. Not everyone can be succesful, not everyone can be rich, not everyone can own a house. If you tax to death the wealthy, they will leave and the wealthy are who employ people.

[Hobodeluxe]

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.

[BlackLantern]

just because someone has more money than YOU doesn't mean they have disposable income

[Hobodeluxe]

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.

[Malice]

I say cut em more..taxes that is

[BlackLantern]

I say we suspend tax cuts across the board for the next 4-6 years and use that money to start paying down this deficit

[Hobodeluxe]

Originally Posted by BlackLantern

just because someone has more money than YOU doesn't mean they have disposable income

No it just means they have to pay 5.4% more tax on their million dollar a year plus income. But chances are they own a business. And chances are their insurance prices would go down because of the competition. and this is one million adjusted income. if they are smart and have a good accountant they could make lots more than that and still not have to pay. I'm not worried that they'll be suffering. And lots more people won't be because of them. They should feel good about being able to provide for their fellow Americans.
Not everyone is poor by choice. It's a bad stereotype. Shiat happens. People get old, they get hurt, they get sick, it's indiscriminate.
I find it repulsive that that is some people's default attitude.

[BlackLantern]

then why don't you just donate 50 percent of your paycheck to charity, every time you get paid...and then try to get by on what you have left??

[The Guard]

I think it's somewhat amusing that people insist on believing they really have any degree of control, or believe that they do in our current system, to any extent. The industry is what it is. There are and will be no guarantees with this or any system.

The way some of you think this system is going to work/not work is just...I don't know, is "cynical" the word?

PATIENT: "Please help my son, his leg is broken in eighteen places!"

SYSTEM: "No, it's not life threatening. Come back in a month".

Come on, people.

No sir, they are not in "breach" of anything. They do have a right to deny any claim if they deem it necessary to maintain their profit margins.

Per legal standards, insurers have a legal right to deny a claim if they feel they do not owe it, be that because it is not a covered loss, the loss is not owed period, for whatever reason, the policy was not in force, other insurance applies, etc.

Companies who deny claims simply because they don't want to take the loss, etc...are guilty of bad faith claim handling, and usually subject to massive fines and punitive and special damages.

Of course this is not the reason they actually give to you or anyone else. If you feel it's unfair then you are welcome to go thru the lengthy beaucracy that is the "appeals" process after you've gotten the run around on the phone. If you fail your first two appeals you can request your state conduct an external review, that is if you are even aware of this to begin with. After which time you may or may not be granted an approval of your claim. If it's approved the insurance pays up; if not then they just lucked out. It's a win win situation for them. This is all in the contract which you agreed upon, except that last part about the external review. Sure they may have to fight the claim but they do that anyway on a daily basis.

So you believe that insurance is essentially a scam...designed to deny appropriate claims that are owed and hope that no one hires a lawyer?

A majority of claims are paid promptly and fairly. The ones that aren't, there are any number of reasons for that.

It's all part of doing business. They're gambling that a high enough portion of ppl will either not bother appealing, not appeal more than once after losing, or give up after losing a second appeal. So I ask you how are they not fullfilling their end of the contract, which you agreed upon when you signed?

They're gambling that they're usually right about what they paid and didn't pay. And it's not a gamble, really. It's usually very highly regulated.

If they do not pay for what the contract states they will pay for...they are in breach of contract. It's pretty simple. Is it up to the insured, after the insurance company finishes assessing, adjusting, and attempting to settle a claim, whether they want to go "Hey, they screwed me over"? Yes, should it be otherwise?

I mean, I'd love it if we lived in a world where the oh, I'd say 35-40 percent of people who aren't happy with the settlement they received could just say "I am not pleased" and get immediate satisfaction, but it just doesn't work that way. Nor, based on what I've seen in just a few years, should it.

If in a company is working to please stockholders like they should, then it's pretty obvious that have to show a profit, correct? How do you do that, by paying up claims when they should? Come now, that would be silly wouldn't it? Alot of these companies have yearly caps to maintain on top of everything else. They're not going to dole out money everytime there's a legitimate claim. That's why they have the appeals process.

No, what would be silly is a company ASKING for lawsuit after lawsuit by lying to your customers, who are also a key source of investment income, and then treating them unfairly.

A company that makes profit by breaching their contract is quickly going to lose that profit in damages and god knows what other fines.

Investors in an insurance company should be worried about the insurers investments and returns from those investments, not just the amount of claims that were paid out, though that's obviously a concern.

The appeals process is for occassions where people or corporate entities feel they've been treated unfairly. A lot of people lose appeals the first and second time for the same reason a lot of lawsuits, period, get thrown out. Because quite frankly, most of the time, by the letter of the law, the insurer DID treat them fairly. Some people just don't think "fair" is "fair".

So you're automatically assuming that a person that every person who has a pre existing condition does it to themselves? How narrow minded can you be?

No...I'm saying: Why would THIS industry suddenly take on more risk than any other business?

[StorminNorman]

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

You do realize the wealthy pay the overwhelming majority of taxes, yes?

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.

If it costs more to operate in America than it does overseas - they will move their jobs, causing damage to the economy in several ways. This is why FairTax would be a huge boost economically.

[The Overlord]

I like the fact that the GOP and Fox News portray the Canadian Health Care system as a Soviet style nightmare system, its not perfect, but neither is the current American system. I find the system is fine up here.

Either Fox and the GOP are trying disinformation about he Canadian system or they just ignorant of it and talking out of their butts.

[chaseter]

You find it fine because you are young and healthy.

Canada's healthcare system isn't as bad as the GOP are making it out to be. But, their system isn't perfect either so modeling a new system off of that is dumb. Our system works, it just has a few kinks. Fixing those kinks is better than throwing it away and starting fresh, only to find new kinks.

I find it more disturbing that the Democrats and Obama are lying through their teeth about their health care reform when days later we find out that what they said were complete lies more so than I find it disturbing that the GOP is exaggerating Canada's health care system.

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

No it just means they have to pay 5.4% more tax on their million dollar a year plus income.

Why don't you pay an additional 5.4% then? If UHC is so important, then what is another measly 5.4% off of your income right! I mean it won't be much if you don't make much

But chances are they own a business. And chances are their insurance prices would go down because of the competition. and this is one million adjusted income.

Chance are that they do own a business. The chances are even greater that if they are getting taxed out the ***, they will move their business to a place where it is cheaper. That means cutting jobs. So, was it that important in the long run?

If the government makes you pay for a plan, what is the point of health insurance companies then? If the government is forcing you to pay into their system, health care insurance wouldn't even need to exist. I am sure a very small portion would still exist to accomodate the wealthy but for the middle class that are now paying into a government system, why would they keep their plan? So, that means we cut more jobs! YAY! So far this sounds exciting.

if they are smart and have a good accountant they could make lots more than that and still not have to pay. I'm not worried that they'll be suffering.

If the lower class were smart, they wouldn't be the lower class. Instead, they drop out of high school, they get felonies, they have tons of kids that they can't pay for, they spend their money on drugs, they make bad choices, etc...whatever their case may be. I just love your attitude about UHC! It's so Robin Hood-esque. Let the wealthy make their money and then just hang out in the forest, drinking meade, and then rob them! Once again, punishing success and rewarding failure is stupid. If the poor had a good accountant, maybe they could make lots more than that!

They should feel good about being able to provide for their fellow Americans.

Welcome to Socialism! Class, today we will be dividing up our lunches so that little Timmy, Suzy, John, and Samantha in the back can eat. Also, we will be making you give half of your clothes to them as well so that they can have nice things.

We have programs that already give the lower class what they need and we are all already paying into that. Compounding more and more programs to give them more and more stuff is leading us into Socialism and what country out there that follows the Socialism program is doing great out there?

Not everyone is poor by choice. It's a bad stereotype. Shiat happens. People get old, they get hurt, they get sick, it's indiscriminate.
I find it repulsive that that is some people's default attitude.

That is correct. Sometimes you are born into a bad situation. But, like you just said, **** happens. We aren't a froofroo utopia where everyone gets a car, dog, house, and kids. Some people make bad choices, some people are born into bad choices, and some people choose not to overcome those obstacles. America is the land of opportunity, nobody is holding these people back. And guess what, children that are born into bad choices get free meals, a free education, and the opportunity to break free of that. But, some choose not to do that. Some choose to live off of welfare and suck the people dry that actually do something.

[SuBe]

From Neal's Nuze

We have heard a lot about obesity this week, thanks to the revelation that almost 10% of Americans' healthcare spending is due to blubberbutts. Then the Democrats promise that their healthcare bill will fund "the fight" against obesity. Then I read a story like this, from the UK, and I can't help but think, "Coming soon to the United States."

A 25-year-old woman by the name of Laura Ripley was such a lardass that the government considered her disabled. So the taxpayers fork over $15,000 so she can have a weight loss surgery. She loses enough weight to the point where the government no longer considers her disabled. Now Laura Ripley is throwing a fit. Do you know why? Because the government reduced her welfare checks because she is no longer disabled. Now she says that she can't afford healthy food and she is starting to gain weight.
Consider this ... this woman has never held a job in her life. She is a mooch. She is a looter. She is a welfare broodmare. She gets paid by the taxpayers to sit on her fat ass and contribute NOTHING to society. With that, she goes to the National Health Service to get this weight loss surgery. Then after she loses the weight, she complains because now she has less moocher money to pay for her bon bons and tea biscuits. She says, 'I can't afford to buy Weight Watchers crisps and cereal bars any more so I eat Tesco's chocolate bars and packets of Space Invaders crisps, sometimes four of each a day ... People ask why I don't snack on an apple - they're cheap, but emotionally I don't always feel like an apple.'

Not only that, but she blames the government for treating her unfairly and causing her to gain weight again. 'It's heartbreaking that after all my hard work losing this weight someone's come along and ruined it.' That's right. It's not her personal responsibility. It is the government's fault.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

you do realize that the top tax rate is the lowest it's ever been and has been at that rate for a while now right? sorry but the privilege of living in the land of plenty and reaping it's bounty isn't free. You pay back into the society that has enabled you to make that money. it's infrastructure,it's defense and it's general welfare.

I want to see proof of this, please. As in, an IRS Report or something that references an IRS Report.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

okay where do you guys get the "doing nothing" and "living off the rich" ideology at?
it's a symbiotic relationship. they need workers and customers. they don't create that money themselves. they depend on the sweat of others. so in essence don't they leech off us? and really. it's not the end of the world. they had a good ride under Bush but the time has come to pay the bills. taking back his tax cuts isn't going to kill them.

No, they Invest in their Service or Products, they PAY their Employees or Vendors. They don't "Leech" off on anyone. Those that Use Government to FORCE money from someone is the Leech.

[Hobodeluxe]

Originally Posted by SuBe

No, they Invest in their Service or Products, they PAY their Employees or Vendors. They don't "Leech" off on anyone. Those that Use Government to FORCE money from someone is the Leech.

Like I said it's symbiotic. The only leeches you have are those who are on welfare for extended periods of time for no good reason. who never pay any taxes and abuse the system. and those at the top who take the money and don't reinvest it but send it overseas or use fancy accounting to hide from the taxman. Who make money without producing jobs. Just from money swapping hands in a financial shell game done at high speed by a computer with proprietary software on the market's mainframe.

Obama and Holder are cracking down on some of them and they're turning themselves in. Check out the WSJ today.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by chaseter

You find it fine because you are young and healthy.

Canada's healthcare system isn't as bad as the GOP are making it out to be. But, their system isn't perfect either so modeling a new system off of that is dumb. Our system works, it just has a few kinks. Fixing those kinks is better than throwing it away and starting fresh, only to find new kinks..

My grandmother is 88 and she's fine with the Health Care system too, are you an expert on Canadian Health Care now? You know more about then people who live here?

Its not a perfect system, but neither is the American one, there is no such thing as a perfect system. There never will be one.

None of this changes the fact the GOP are either lying about the health care system in Canada or they are talking out of their butt about it. It pisses off people up here, this people in other countries don't like the GOP, they demand absolute respect for America, but bash every other country on the planet.

The GOP is making claims that don't make up at all, it seems like spreading disinformation to me.. Saying the governemnt cuts off treatemnt for people considered too old (when did that happen) and talking friends of friends (but don't give a name or location), its impossible to validate any of these claims. That is very dishonest to me.