Discussion: Taxes and Taxation

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Yeah, this is going to work... people are just going to go out and spend all their money on worthless crap because they have a little extra more... OR, they'll probably save that money to ensure that they have enough to wade through the next looming financial crisis...

I don't know where you come up with this, Even if you SAVE the money, it's in a Bank, when Banks have money, they can loan money, when they loan money, people spend it. If people spend it, they help the economy.

Just because money sits in a bank, it doesn't mean its not working.

I believe most people would spend it, just like they normally would, they would pay off or pay down a credit card, which helps the economy.

If they don't do that, they could spend it on crap, but that helps the economy.

Or they could save it, which, as I said, helps the economy. It's no more different and doesn't cost the Taxpayers any more than the $350 Billion already set aside for the Bailouts.

What do you have against people keeping the money they earn?

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by SuBe

What do you have against people keeping the money they earn?

It is our Constitutional obligation to pay income tax. What do you have against the Constitution?

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

It is our Constitutional obligation to pay income tax. What do you have against the Constitution?

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

It doesn't say, "obligation to pay income tax". The Power to collect taxes can be suspended. It's the Government Obligation to protect our Rights as laid out by the Constitution.

The Gohmert Plan is just a suspention of the Taxes, that is paid for with the Bailout Package. That's money ALREADY Collected. It's no different than a Reduction of Taxes.

Do you really think there's an "Obligation" to pay Income Taxes? What about all the people that don't pay them now because they don't earn income, should the Government confiscate "their fair share"?

This is just a different usage of the Bailout bill's Funds that are already set aside. With this Plan, it gives the power of picking winners and losers in the economy to the 141 Million Taxpayers, instead of the 535 elite people in Congress. THAT'S Democracy, what do you have against Democracy?

Do you really think Government is so Infallable that they can't allow the Citizens of this country to have Economic Freedom?

You do know that the Income Tax hasn't ALWAYS been around, it's just a hair over 100 years old, this country used to be able to function with out one, whats 2 months?

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by SuBe

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

It doesn't say, "obligation to pay income tax". The Power to collect taxes can be suspended. It's the Government Obligation to protect our Rights as laid out by the Constitution.

The Gohmert Plan is just a suspention of the Taxes, that is paid for with the Bailout Package. That's money ALREADY Collected. It's no different than a Reduction of Taxes.

Do you really think there's an "Obligation" to pay Income Taxes? What about all the people that don't pay them now because they don't earn income, should the Government confiscate "their fair share"?

I think there is an obligation for Americans to pay income tax. We are a collective society; as a result, everyone should have to contribute to its well-being. If people do not like that aspect of our government, then perhaps they should look for "better" countries-- though I doubt they would be able to find many countries 1) without a mandatory income tax and 2) with a high standard of living. As for those who don't work, there obviously isn't an obligation for them to pay an income tax, considering they are unemployed. That seems fairly cut and dry to me.

This is just a different usage of the Bailout bill's Funds that are already set aside. With this Plan, it gives the power of picking winners and losers in the economy to the 141 Million Taxpayers, instead of the 535 elite people in Congress. THAT'S Democracy, what do you have against Democracy?

There's a fundamental flaw in your argument: We are a representative democracy; the people themselves elect politicians to represent them in Congress. If the people are so upset with all these bailouts, then they have an obligation to vote them out of office. If they cannot be brought to the ballot box to do so, then it's their own fault.

Moreover, I see no definitive proof that this plan would do anything to revitalize our economy, and I do not see how it is any better than the hundreds of billions of dollars in imaginary money we plan to throw away. Yes, suspend taxes, people will have more money to spend-- but that doesn't mean that money will be spent, and that doesn't mean that the money accumulated in loans is going to go anywhere, either, considering the amount of defaulted loans in our country right now.

Do you really think Government is so Infallable that they can't allow the Citizens of this country to have Economic Freedom?

You do know that the Income Tax hasn't ALWAYS been around, it's just a hair over 100 years old, this country used to be able to function with out one, whats 2 months?

And the Constitution used to never be around, and the colonies used to function without it...

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by The Incredible Hulk

some updates:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed...han_a_bailout/

and you'll like this next one as the one proposal has the tax burden being taken off income for those 2 months and put on gasoline as a form of a consumption tax:

http://economy.nationaljournal.com/2...iday.php?rss=1

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=83682

From Incredible Hulk.

[SoulManX]

Originally Posted by Paradyme

Once the dems and repubs have their mind set on bailouts thats all they see. It's actually quite pathetic. I don't expect to see any of these implemented but they are good ideas so far.

I see that as well

[SuBe]

Give It Back! Stimulus of the People, By the People!

Posted by http://www.cafepress.com/getright50 on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:36:26 AM
This plan is fantastic in its simplicity. There are $350 billion left in the bailout money. The revenue from tax withholding for two months is somewhere around
$336 billion.

Congressman Gohmert proposes that the bailout money be kept in the treasury and give the people a two month tax holiday. This would be an immediate stimulus to the economy. It would allow us to spend the extra money to buy a car, flatscreen TV, catch up on bills, etc. It would prevent the bureaucrats from meddling in the free market and allow that free market to determine who will be winners and who will be losers.

I heard Congressman Gohmert talk about his plan. He said that one Congressman suggested that it would be putting the money back into the hands of the very people that caused this mess. I would like to know the name of that Congressman - if that doesn't @#%% you off, I don't know what would.

Newt Gingrich has endorsed the plan. Both Newt and Congressman Gohmert said that the effort to get this done will have to come from the people, as the politicians don't want to relinquish control, AND after two months without withholding, they will have a tax revolt on their hands.

The link below describes the plan in detail and has a link to a petition at RedState.com.
http://gohmert.house.gov/Article.aspx?NewsID=1355

In addition, we need to shut down the switchboard at the Capitol, as we did with the back-door Kennedy/McCain Amnesty bill.
Contact Senators and Congress TODAY!!! The government is of the people, by the people and for the people. We must be active in it.

[SuBe]

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/..._new_york.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28270175/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,468305,00.html

Includes Taxes on all Payable Downloads from the Internet, like Itunes and Videogames!

[The Chris]

He deserved his SNL treatment.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

I think there is an obligation for Americans to pay income tax. We are a collective society; as a result, everyone should have to contribute to its well-being. If people do not like that aspect of our government, then perhaps they should look for "better" countries-- though I doubt they would be able to find many countries 1) without a mandatory income tax and 2) with a high standard of living. As for those who don't work, there obviously isn't an obligation for them to pay an income tax, considering they are unemployed. That seems fairly cut and dry to me.

But Jman, by spending money or saving money, it helps keep the Economy afloat, if we can reverse the Recession, that IS contributing to it's well-being.

When I said that this is Democracy, I meant it in the Economic Sense, the Dollar Vote. Instead of the Government with it's 535 Elites deciding the Winners and Losers of Businesses and Corporations, let 141,000,000 TaxPayers decide how their Hard earned money is spend.

There's a fundamental flaw in your argument: We are a representative democracy; the people themselves elect politicians to represent them in Congress. If the people are so upset with all these bailouts, then they have an obligation to vote them out of office. If they cannot be brought to the ballot box to do so, then it's their own fault.

Moreover, I see no definitive proof that this plan would do anything to revitalize our economy, and I do not see how it is any better than the hundreds of billions of dollars in imaginary money we plan to throw away. Yes, suspend taxes, people will have more money to spend-- but that doesn't mean that money will be spent, and that doesn't mean that the money accumulated in loans is going to go anywhere, either, considering the amount of defaulted loans in our country right now.



And the Constitution used to never be around, and the colonies used to function without it...

Has the Dumping of Hundreds of Billions of Dollars to a few select Business done anything to truly help this economy? No, it hasn't, we are hearing every day about this company or that company cutting jobs, or what have you. If these Bailout would have helped, these jobs wouldn't have been cut. The Government is losing revenue when each and every person loses a job, don't they need to do something to save them?

[jaguarr]

New York has become a police state run by corrupt, over-spending, fascist a-holes.

jag

[Paradoxium]

*frothing mouth*

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by The Chris

He deserved his SNL treatment.

Um, no, he didn't. SNL portrayed him as a bumbling, drug obsessed fool who didn't know what he was doing. David Paterson is one of the most intelligent men in American politics right now, and with New York state on the brink of financial collapse, it makes sense that he is looking for ways to raise money. And unfortunately, the only way to bring in extra revenue is to raise taxes. The governor's office has cut several programs and managed to cut billions off its annual expenditures; but given the financial situation on Wall Street and the ongoing financial woes in Upstate, Paterson has to find money elsewhere.

On a somewhat related topic, SNL should consider finding TALENTED cast members also... Fred Armisen's Paterson and Barney Frank are two of the worst impersonations I have ever seen in that show's history...

[Addendum]

I highly doubt that people buying crap during the holidays will "miraculously" save the economy

[Paradoxium]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Um, no, he didn't. SNL portrayed him as a bumbling, drug obsessed fool who didn't know what he was doing. David Paterson is one of the most intelligent men in American politics right now, and with New York state on the brink of financial collapse, it makes sense that he is looking for ways to raise money. And unfortunately, the only way to bring in extra revenue is to raise taxes. The governor's office has cut several programs and managed to cut billions off its annual expenditures; but given the financial situation on Wall Street and the ongoing financial woes in Upstate, Paterson has to find money elsewhere.

On a somewhat related topic, SNL should consider finding TALENTED cast members also... Fred Armisen's Paterson and Barney Frank are two of the worst impersonations I have ever seen in that show's history...

For what it is worth, jman is right about him doing spending cuts. Maybe he will lower taxes after this debacle is over.

From WSJ

"[T]he higher we tax even the wealthy, the more we lose population and the less job creation there is," Gov. Paterson said in an interview Friday. "We're pretty resigned to the fact that we're going to have to do this with spending cuts."

[The Senator]

SuBe, you know I haven't supported any of the bailouts which Congress has passed/ proposed. But you said so yourself, that the money which is being generated in these bailout packages would still be pumped into the economy, just in the form of economic activity on behalf of the average person. So, my question is, how do we know that these businesses wouldn't be cutting jobs and closing factories anyway? It seems like that is an economic condition we cannot prevent from happening, regardless of what we do.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

SuBe, you know I haven't supported any of the bailouts which Congress has passed/ proposed. But you said so yourself, that the money which is being generated in these bailout packages would still be pumped into the economy, just in the form of economic activity on behalf of the average person. So, my question is, how do we know that these businesses wouldn't be cutting jobs and closing factories anyway? It seems like that is an economic condition we cannot prevent from happening, regardless of what we do.

I know you are not a supporter of the Bailouts, just like me. But, this isn't a Bailout, this puts money back into the Taxpayer's Pockets, that way, those that deserve the business gets it. Whether it be Toyato or Chevy, or any of the other Million Manufacturers.

The Economy, turning down isn't a thunderstorm that we have no control over whatsoever, it's a phenominon caused by Government, the government has to relieve it's pressure on business and the consumer, then it will bound back up.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Um, no, he didn't. SNL portrayed him as a bumbling, drug obsessed fool who didn't know what he was doing. David Paterson is one of the most intelligent men in American politics right now, and with New York state on the brink of financial collapse, it makes sense that he is looking for ways to raise money. And unfortunately, the only way to bring in extra revenue is to raise taxes. The governor's office has cut several programs and managed to cut billions off its annual expenditures; but given the financial situation on Wall Street and the ongoing financial woes in Upstate, Paterson has to find money elsewhere.

On a somewhat related topic, SNL should consider finding TALENTED cast members also... Fred Armisen's Paterson and Barney Frank are two of the worst impersonations I have ever seen in that show's history...

That is NOT the only way to raise Revenue. If you reduce taxes, so more people are working and spending, THAT can raise Revenue.

When more people have jobs, more people are paying income Taxes.

If Income Taxes were less, people have more money to spend, which the Corporations receive, then they pay more Corporate Taxes.

When Taxes are lower, there is less incentive to cheat on Taxes. Reduce Taxes, and Historically Revenue goes up.

Raising Taxes is the Only Way DEMOCRATS know how to raise revenue.

[Paradyme]

Originally Posted by SuBe

That is NOT the only way to raise Revenue. If you reduce taxes, so more people are working and spending, THAT can raise Revenue.

When more people have jobs, more people are paying income Taxes.

If Income Taxes were less, people have more money to spend, which the Corporations receive, then they pay more Corporate Taxes.

When Taxes are lower, there is less incentive to cheat on Taxes. Reduce Taxes, and Historically Revenue goes up.

Raising Taxes is the Only Way DEMOCRATS know how to raise revenue.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[IncrediNate]

I love conservatives that speak up. Why didn't you guys run for president?

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by SuBe

That is NOT the only way to raise Revenue. If you reduce taxes, so more people are working and spending, THAT can raise Revenue.

When more people have jobs, more people are paying income Taxes.

If Income Taxes were less, people have more money to spend, which the Corporations receive, then they pay more Corporate Taxes.

When Taxes are lower, there is less incentive to cheat on Taxes. Reduce Taxes, and Historically Revenue goes up.

Raising Taxes is the Only Way DEMOCRATS know how to raise revenue.

And everything you say here has yet to be proven true...

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by IncrediNate

I love conservatives that speak up. Why didn't you guys run for president?

We haven't had a Conservative Run for president since Regean.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

And everything you say here has yet to be proven true...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...e-revenue.html

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg2001.cfm

There are many more.

[Ocramed]

Originally Posted by SuBe

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...e-revenue.html

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg2001.cfm

There are many more.

Con:

http://usbudget.blogspot.com/2008/03...-revenues.html

On principle, we should model our tax rate based upon Russia's: a flat income and sales tax. You'll make WAY more money in the sales tax market, since everybody has to buy food.

O.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by Ocramed

Con:

http://usbudget.blogspot.com/2008/03...-revenues.html

On principle, we should model our tax rate based upon Russia's: a flat income and sales tax. You'll make WAY more money in the sales tax market, since everybody has to buy food.

O.

No, we shouldn't, Our Current Income Tax started as a Flat tax, then progressed to the Monster it was in the 80's. Then it was a Flat Tax again, then it progressed into the Monster it is today. We need a FairTax, just a Straght Sales Tax, with a Prebate that ensures the Poor don't pay any taxes at all.