Discussion: Taxes and Taxation

[jaguarr]

Economics fight!!!! *slaps SuBe with the Dow Jones*

jag

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jaguarr

Economics fight!!!! *slaps SuBe with the Dow Jones*

jag

I didn't say the Economy was good, I'm just saying it's Government's fault.

*Slaps Jag with 70,000 Pages of IRS Rules and Regulations that NO ONE understands*

[jaguarr]

Originally Posted by SuBe

I didn't say the Economy was good, I'm just saying it's Government's fault.

*Slaps Jag with 70,000 Pages of IRS Rules and Regulations that NO ONE understands*

I didn't say you said the economy was good!

*gives SuBe numerous papercuts with Paulson's 1.5 page bailout plan*

jag

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jaguarr

I didn't say you said the economy was good!

*gives SuBe numerous papercuts with Paulson's 1.5 page bailout plan*

jag

Then why are you hitting me with the Dow Jones! It didn't hurt anyways! It's not as big as it used to be!

*Makes paperplane out of Paulson's 1.5 page bailout and throws it at Jag. It misses, but he gets the point...*

[jaguarr]

Originally Posted by SuBe

Then why are you hitting me with the Dow Jones! It didn't hurt anyways! It's not as big as it used to be!

It was close by and handy. Don't make me pistol-whip you with the S&P!

*Makes paperplane out of Paulson's 1.5 page bailout and throws it at Jag. It misses, but he gets the point...*

Any wagers on how many Congressmen wanted to do just that?

jag

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by jaguarr

Any wagers on how many Congressmen wanted to do just that?

jag

That would be great Front page news!

[Malice]

I support this one...give me the money versus give it to the corps

[SoulManX]

Originally Posted by malice

i support this one...give me the money versus give it to the corps

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by SuBe

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...e-revenue.html

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg2001.cfm

There are many more.

So, you give me a speculative article which suggests Reagan's tax cuts can raise economic revenue, but provides no definitive proof that his tax cuts actually helped benefit the economy?

And then, you give me a subjective study by the Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative think thank?

You have you do better than that. Provide me with an objective piece of information which definitively proves that cutting taxes is beneficial to the economy.

[IncrediNate]

I'll help the guy out. It's America and the internet so freedom of speech and ideas.

[hippie_hunter]

With the state that New York's finances are in now on top of the current state of the economy, slashing spending and raising taxes are frankly the only way to combat the huge deficit we're facing.

Unfortunately, Paterson is doing this completely the wrong way. Raising taxes on music downloads, non-diet soda, bottled water, gas, etc. along with raising fees on several services such as applying for a drivers license and fishing license and whatnot and raising fares for the MTA and other transportation services will end up hurting the poorer and middle class citizens of New York while the upper class will easily afford it and end up hurting the economy. They come off as rather absurd as well by trying to tax every single little thing as possible.

It also shows that Patterson has absolutely no understanding why New York is declining while states such as Virginia are thriving. People are leaving New York instead of coming to it simply because it is too expensive to live here because we are already taxed enough as it is (the second highest taxed state in the United States). These new taxes, fees, fines, and fares will end up further decline New York.

I was in Long Island when the governor announced his craptacular budget and I have seen nothing but negativity. I imagine that Upstate New York is going to be furious as well. With this on top of his possible selection of Caroline Kennedy, I frankly see no way the man will end up surviving the 2010 whether within his own party or by the voters.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

With the state that New York's finances are in now on top of the current state of the economy, slashing spending and raising taxes are frankly the only way to combat the huge deficit we're facing.

Unfortunately, Paterson is doing this completely the wrong way. Raising taxes on music downloads, non-diet soda, bottled water, gas, etc. along with raising fees on several services such as applying for a drivers license and fishing license and whatnot and raising fares for the MTA and other transportation services will end up hurting the poorer and middle class citizens of New York while the upper class will easily afford it and end up hurting the economy. They come off as rather absurd as well by trying to tax every single little thing as possible.

It also shows that Patterson has absolutely no understanding why New York is declining while states such as Virginia are thriving. People are leaving New York instead of coming to it simply because it is too expensive to live here because we are already taxed enough as it is (the second highest taxed state in the United States). These new taxes, fees, fines, and fares will end up further decline New York.

I was in Long Island when the governor announced his craptacular budget and I have seen nothing but negativity. I imagine that Upstate New York is going to be furious as well. With this on top of his possible selection of Caroline Kennedy, I frankly see no way the man will end up surviving the 2010 whether within his own party or by the voters.

So, would you agree that if they were to Cut Spending and Cut Taxes, more people would move back into NY? You don't punish people for living there, all this plan will do is entice others to move out of there, and THAT hurts revenue even worse.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by SuBe

So, would you agree that if they were to Cut Spending and Cut Taxes, more people would move back into NY? You don't punish people for living there, all this plan will do is entice others to move out of there, and THAT hurts revenue even worse.

I wouldn't say that I fully agree but I do to a certain extent.

If they cut taxes, the influx of people LEAVING would at least slow down quite a bit. I think a lot more is needed to entice others to move into New York.

But I fully agree that what Patterson's plan will end up doing is drive people further away from New York. We're taxed enough as it is.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

I wouldn't say that I fully agree but I do to a certain extent.

If they cut taxes, the influx of people LEAVING would at least slow down quite a bit. I think a lot more is needed to entice others to move into New York.

But I fully agree that what Patterson's plan will end up doing is drive people further away from New York. We're taxed enough as it is.

What would your plan be to entice people to move to NY?

[Paradoxium]

NY's reliance on taxing the richest tranches (at a higher percentage) of the population has backfired. A ton of them are screwed from the financial crisis. There is no way the remaining rich people who are fiscally prudent stays in NY, it makes no sense (especially if rioting starts happening). The richest of NY are the most likely to move because they are the most capable of doing so. Expect a sudden "boom" in Connecticut's population.

So the low income and poor of NY are going to get screwed over the most.

Less charity, less social support (health and education), and more taxes. This is a microcosm of America to come.

On the bright side, the people who can see this coming can act, avoid the train wreak and prosper even. Interesting times to say the least.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by SuBe

What would your plan be to entice people to move to NY?

In my opinion, New York needs to end up being like Virginia. New York needs business friendly laws along with lower taxes to entice people to come.

We need to reconcile Upstate New York and New York City to resemble that of North Virginia and the rest of Virginia, they may be completely different and in some ways resent each other, but at least they recognize for the most part that they need each other. Virginia knows it needs North Virginia's money and North Virginia knows that it thrives under Virginia's laws and taxes.

It's the complete opposite here in New York The way it is up here most Upstaters that I know want New York City out. We look upon New York City with utter resentment. And splitting New York into New York State and New York City has been considered several times on both sides.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

In my opinion, New York needs to end up being like Virginia. New York needs business friendly laws along with lower taxes to entice people to come.

We need to reconcile Upstate New York and New York City to resemble that of North Virginia and the rest of Virginia, they may be completely different and in some ways resent each other, but at least they recognize for the most part that they need each other. Virginia knows it needs North Virginia's money and North Virginia knows that it thrives under Virginia's laws and taxes.

It's the complete opposite here in New York The way it is up here most Upstaters that I know want New York City out. We look upon New York City with utter resentment. And splitting New York into New York State and New York City has been considered several times on both sides.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

Ok, now that you have called for Lower Taxes and Friendlier Business Laws, and that would bring in more people, do you think that more revenue would be collected since the population would increase?

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Paradoxium

NY's reliance on taxing the richest tranches (at a higher percentage) of the population has backfired. A ton of them are screwed from the financial crisis. There is no way the remaining rich people who are fiscally prudent stays in NY, it makes no sense (especially if rioting starts happening). The richest of NY are the most likely to move because they are the most capable of doing so. Expect a sudden "boom" in Connecticut's population.

Agreed

So the low income and poor of NY are going to get screwed over the most.

With Patterson's desire to increase gasoline, alcohol, and tobacco taxes, taxing digital downloads, taxing beverages, along with his proposed fine, fee, and fare increases, I think it's the middle class in New York that are going to get screwed over the most.

Less charity, less social support (health and education), and more taxes. This is a microcosm of America to come.

Pay more and get less. That's really going to come off great.

On the bright side, the people who can see this coming can act, avoid the train wreak and prosper even. Interesting times to say the least.

It's times like these that we need people who understand the blight of the poorer and middle class in New York.

And as I said already, I think that this budget and appointing Caroline Kennedy will end up killing Patterson's gubernatorial career.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by SuBe

That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

Ok, now that you have called for Lower Taxes and Friendlier Business Laws, and that would bring in more people, do you think that more revenue would be collected since the population would increase?

Absolutely.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

With the state that New York's finances are in now on top of the current state of the economy, slashing spending and raising taxes are frankly the only way to combat the huge deficit we're facing.

Unfortunately, Paterson is doing this completely the wrong way. Raising taxes on music downloads, non-diet soda, bottled water, gas, etc. along with raising fees on several services such as applying for a drivers license and fishing license and whatnot and raising fares for the MTA and other transportation services will end up hurting the poorer and middle class citizens of New York while the upper class will easily afford it and end up hurting the economy. They come off as rather absurd as well by trying to tax every single little thing as possible.

It also shows that Patterson has absolutely no understanding why New York is declining while states such as Virginia are thriving. People are leaving New York instead of coming to it simply because it is too expensive to live here because we are already taxed enough as it is (the second highest taxed state in the United States). These new taxes, fees, fines, and fares will end up further decline New York.

I was in Long Island when the governor announced his craptacular budget and I have seen nothing but negativity. I imagine that Upstate New York is going to be furious as well. With this on top of his possible selection of Caroline Kennedy, I frankly see no way the man will end up surviving the 2010 whether within his own party or by the voters.

Then how can you say that Cutting Spending and RAISING TAXES are the only way to combat this?

Lower Taxes and friendlier Business Laws increase the amount of NEW Businesses. The More Businesses there are, the more Jobs there are, the more jobs, the more people are working, the more people are working, the more taxes are paid. Plus, with lower taxes, the incentive to cheat is reduced, ADDING to more revenue as well.

[Paradoxium]

Pay more taxes + get less + 9% approval rating + economic disasters left and right = pay raise for Congress!!

Yes we can

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by SuBe

Then how can you say that Cutting Spending and RAISING TAXES are the only way to combat this?

Lower Taxes and friendlier Business Laws increase the amount of NEW Businesses. The More Businesses there are, the more Jobs there are, the more jobs, the more people are working, the more people are working, the more taxes are paid. Plus, with lower taxes, the incentive to cheat is reduced, ADDING to more revenue as well.

Because I'm looking at the current situation. New York was suffering long before the current economic crisis. In normal circumstances being like Virginia is what New York needs in order to recover.

However, because of the economic downturn, I doubt many businessmen and women want to invest in much of anything right now. For the time being we can't be like Virginia, even if we changed our laws and taxes.

Right now, under the current economic downturn, raising taxes is the only way to attempt to fix the mess New York's fiscal state is in because any other method right now is just unobtainable.

However, what Patterson is doing just goes too far and while it'll certainly help New York's fiscal problems, it'll end up hurting New York in the long term because these taxes will be hurting the people who can't afford them.

When the economy gets better (which will happen), that is when we can transform New York into a Virginia-esque state and when another economic downturn happens like the one we're in right now, we wouldn't have to do this crap in the first place.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Because I'm looking at the current situation. New York was suffering long before the current economic crisis. In normal circumstances being like Virginia is what New York needs in order to recover.

However, because of the economic downturn, I doubt many businessmen and women want to invest in much of anything right now. For the time being we can't be like Virginia, even if we changed our laws and taxes.

Right now, under the current economic downturn, raising taxes is the only way to attempt to fix the mess New York's fiscal state is in because any other method right now is just unobtainable.

However, what Patterson is doing just goes too far and while it'll certainly help New York's fiscal problems, it'll end up hurting New York in the long term because these taxes will be hurting the people who can't afford them.

When the economy gets better (which will happen), that is when we can transform New York into a Virginia-esque state and when another economic downturn happens like the one we're in right now, we wouldn't have to do this crap in the first place.

I can guarentee that if Patterson came out and said, we are cutting all taxes by 50% starting in 2009. You would see people storming back into New York State. It is a long term fiscal plan that would benifit both the people and the government.

Yes, it would take some time, but those with the capital to invest won't be so hesitant to do so if they know there is a bigger return.

People in other states will look at NY Taxes and compare them to there own states, and would be happy to open the next factory there, or Distrubution warehouse or what have you. They know that they woud be secure in the long term. THAT is how you keep people there, not make them run off.

In the bigger picture, this is the reason Capital and Business is going overseas, Taxes and Unfriendly Laws. The only way to keep it here, and have it return is to make it better for the entrepreneur.

Like I said, the more business you have, the more people are working. Maybe, you will be able to skim off some of the poor that work, they would become middle class, that would reduce State Costs as well. It's all tied into Taxation.

[hippie_hunter]

The problem is that there is no spending, investing, and lending going on to help transform New York because of the current economy. When the economy recovers around late-2009/2010, that is when we should start to transform when lending, spending, and investing begin to speed up once more.

Simply cutting taxes during this economic situation isn't going to help much. It's one solution that is needed, but unfortunately New York needs a lot more (such as reform, changes in spending, and changes in the political system) to get back on its feet.

Getting rid of Patterson, who has shown that he has no clue on why people are leaving New York (even if we didn't have an economic downturn and a budget crisis, the man would have still raised more taxes) in 2010 is needed.

[hippie_hunter]

The problem is that there is no spending, investing, and lending going on to help transform New York because of the current economy. When the economy recovers around late-2009/2010, that is when we should start to transform when lending, spending, and investing begin to speed up once more.

Simply cutting taxes during this economic situation isn't going to help much. It's one solution that is needed, but unfortunately New York needs a lot more (such as reform, changes in spending, and changes in the political system) to get back on its feet.

Getting rid of Patterson, who has shown that he has no clue on why people are leaving New York (even if we didn't have an economic downturn and a budget crisis, the man would have still raised more taxes) in 2010 is needed.