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Old 04-08-2008, 07:55 PM   #76
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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Originally Posted by Tempest19 View Post
It's tone is Iron Man.
Not according to these trailers, which I am more inclined to accept as an accurate indicator than the novelization.

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It's drama is similar to Batman Begins. It takes Iron Man a good hour to appear in the gray. Perhaps slightly less.
This doesn't change anything about the tone of the film. Waiting an hour to get him into a suit doesn't mean it's less fluffy, by the same token that waiting an hour to see Optimus Prime didn't make Transformers any less fluffy.

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There is humor. But, the humor fits the personality. He's sarcastic. He's a wise-ass type guy. Sometimes reminds me of a nicer Gregory House.
Who is complaining about Stark having a sense of humour? The problem is that the trailers seem to indicate he's nothing but humour. Tonally, this film would ideally being comparable to Extremis. That's a little unrealistic, given the common perception of comic book movies, though, so I'd accept something in between. But we don't seem to be getting something in between. We seem to be getting a fluffy popcorn film with only lipservice to anything of substance, thematically and tonally divorced from modern interpretations of Iron Man.

Or, in other words, Iron Man with everything but the jokes and fun cut out.

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There aren't many action sequences.
So? The volume of action doesn't make the film less or more fluffy; it's about how the action (and non-action) scenes are treated that matters.

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You have the escape, the revenge & meeting the jets and the final fight. I'd say on par with Batman Begins as well.
Having a similar structure does not mean it's tonally comparable.

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Tony Stark, like MANY SOLDIERS, listens to rock music to calm him down. I've heard stories of men going into war blasting "Let the Bodies hit the floor." The revenge scene with rock music reminded me very much of these stories and accounts.
As I have explained, the problem is not rock music.

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Iron Man is not a classic hero. He's first heavy metal hero. He's sarcastic. He's cool. He has a lot on his hands and a certain feeling of guilt and self that he has to constantly wrestle with, but still manages to keep his cool and calm. This is what separates him from the pack.

Tony doesn't know how to fly so the first flying (as shown) was a thrilling experience for him because it was living life on the edge.
Again: the issue is not a scene where Iron Man has fun flying: it is the absence of anything but popcorn fun from any of the footage from this film.

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Saying this film is fluff is like saying Batman Begins is fluff. Hell, Bruce even was somewhat sarcastic! "Does it come in black?" "A man dressing up as a bat-" etc. Same kind of sarcasm and excitement. Same number of action sequences.
A handful of humourous lines in Batman Begins is not comparable to what we're seeing in these trailers--not at all. If you are honestly trying to say this film is not being sold as being considerably lighter and fluffier than Batman Begins, I don't know what to tell you.

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Higher focus on characterization and drama.
Neither of which are demonstrated to any significant degree in the trailers. Those elements being present in the novel is to be expected, regardless of the tone of the film, because that is simply a necessity of novelization: spectacle does not translate well, and the narrative has to be filled out by exploring the characters.

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Old 04-08-2008, 08:02 PM   #77
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

Lol, Saint, you are obsessed

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Old 04-08-2008, 08:10 PM   #78
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

Narrative in movie novelations NEVER (in the rare case of Batman Begins) involves adding scenes. It involves describing characters and feelings in more detail. But, not adding scenes. Sometimes scenes in a novel are not present in a film because it's on the cutting room floor. This thing is so tight though that I think it will be one of those rare films that remains largely intact.

I know a lot more than just what is seen by the trailers, because I've basically- and so have others- read the screenplay. Seeing the movie in our heads from beginning to end. So how can I know what the film's tone is? Any good reader can see a movie playing in their heads with every single detail. Yes, Tony's a smart ass- but it's balanced and very heart felt.

This film is darker than Spider-Man 1 and more serious as well. I'd say it's most likely the most serious Marvel movie on screen so far. With DD (DC) and SM2 coming in close behind in terms of seriousness. Note, I said DIRECTORS CUT- not THEATRICAL.

There are MANY character moments. Especially when Tony is captured.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
These very serious almost somber scenes, this is where those are and belong. Back home it's more of a public mask of bravado- always putting on a show that he's alright which kind of makes people worried (for most of the film they are scared that Tony has gone insane and has completely lost it due to the traumatic experience, does that seem light hearted?)


Also about trailers. It's a little thing called 'marketing,' what do you sell people fun and action? or character moments? um, isn't that obvious? Hell, the Hulk looks like a straight up action film by focusing on the last twenty pages of the screenplay for the majority of it's advertising.

Is it as dark as Batman? No. Batman's THE DARK KNIGHT. Is it just as serious? Yes. It's on par. They both respect their characters and representations. The difference here being Tony isn't gloomy, he grabs the bull by the horns and yells yippi ki yay. They haven't shown a lot of the in-between character moments, most of the scenes are power discovery or action from the middle of the film; the Tony Stark you are majorly seeing is the one before being trapped in the cave, heading into battle and the very final scenes of the film itself. Which is not a clear indication of the second and majority of the third act.

Is it fluffy? No. How do I know this? I picked up a book. Saw the movie playing in my head (SCREENPLAYS ARE MOVIES. NOVELIZATIONS ARE ELABORATE SCREENPLAYS DRAWN OUT BY MORE EXPLANATIONS ON THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS.) Personally I'll take novel/screenplay over marketing designed to SELL a film to a SUMMER audience any day of the week. But, that's just me.


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Old 04-08-2008, 08:32 PM   #79
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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Narrative in movie novelations NEVER (in the rare case of Batman Begins) involves adding scenes.
I said not a word about adding scenes.

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It involves describing characters and feelings in more detail.
This is what I described--and it's affects the tone.

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I know a lot more than just what is seen by the trailers, because I've basically- and so have others- read the screenplay. Seeing the movie in our heads from beginning to end. So how can I know what the film's tone is? Any good reader can see a movie playing in their heads with every single detail. Yes, Tony's a smart ass- but it's balanced and very heart felt.

This film is darker than Spider-Man 1 and more serious as well. I'd say it's most likely the most serious Marvel movie on screen so far. With DD (DC) and SM2 coming in close behind in terms of seriousness. Note, I said DIRECTORS CUT- not THEATRICAL.
I have already explained why I don't consider the novelization to necessarily be an accurate reflection of the film, so saying the film is X, Y, Z because you've read the novel isn't likely to sway me. I hope you're right, but absolutely nothing in the footage shown indicates you are.

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Also about trailers. It's a little thing called 'marketing,' what do you sell people fun and action? or character moments?
The answer is that you sell your film based on what it provides. Drama films sell themselves on drama, action films sell themselves on action. Films with both sell themselves on both (the Spider-Man 3 trailer, for example). The Iron Man trailers sell themselves on nothing but fluff.

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Is it as dark as Batman? No. Batman's THE DARK KNIGHT
Please find the post where I said "It should be as Dark as Batman." I am not talking about being "dark."

Read Extremis and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

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Old 04-08-2008, 08:36 PM   #80
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

When May 2nd rolls around, you'll be surprised at what Paramount and Marvel has brilliantly manufactured. I KNOW what the film is going to be. You have your own opinion based off a marketed trailer for a film introducing a character to mass audiences. So I'll leave it at that.

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Old 04-08-2008, 08:41 PM   #81
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

I certainly hope you're right--but I don't expect you to be. Even if accurate, your description of the novel isn't very swaying.

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Old 04-08-2008, 08:47 PM   #82
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

Nice clip.

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Old 04-08-2008, 11:21 PM   #83
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

So many words to read, all I could understand is that you guys are discussing that Iron Man is a fluffer.

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Old 04-08-2008, 11:46 PM   #84
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

Thanks for the back-up Saint and for appreciating that some people on these boards attempt to make well-reasoned arguments instead of just spouting off jargon.

I am hoping that there is some depth and wait.

I think the past three years has shown us something about comic films:

When action supplants drama, we ALL tend to hate it.

Fantastic Four, Daredevil, X-Men 3...these are only moderately enjoyable, mostly due to their parts. However, unlike X-Men 1 and 2, or Batman Begins, we can't appreciate their action or spectacle in context.

See, in my eyes, and yes, I'm going to ramble, a good "story" -- whether it be film, stage, TV, or literary -- has a four or five things:

Character, Theme, Language, Spectacle

These may look familiar because this really, really, really smart guy back in the day, I think his name was Aristotle or something () decided he would sit down and figure out why stories work the way they do and why the affect us. The above is part of that.

Character is the first and foremost. Who is the person? What is their history? Why do they do what they do and why must they go where they're going?

Theme is the overall message or idea that springs the play. As Saint eloquently pointed out, Iron Man deals with the morality of technology, the responsibility of having great genius and the ability to destroy and create, the struggle of man versus machine. But notice that all of these "themes" always fall back on the individual, on the character -- it is the character who is the prime mover of the theme. If you don't have character, you cannot and will not have theme. It's that simple. If Tony Stark does not arrive, struggle, and triumph over certain obstacles in a serious, non-kiddy manner, you cannot have the serious and rather adult themes that Iron Man typically tackles.

Language is simply the dialogue, it's also insinuative of tone. Which is my main concern -- what is this movie's language, it's tone? Is it a teenage language? A fratboy language? Or is a serious filmmaker's language. So far, I'm seeing a lot of fratboy/teenage stuff...not a whole lot of adult language. But, if character and their actions and struggles creates the seeds for a theme, it's the language, the tone of the movie, that allows that theme to gestate and grow. You cannot explore say the themes of Batman while using the language and tone of the Fantastic Four. That thematic seed can't grow there --

Lastly, is spectacle. Aristotle purposely lists this last because, in many ways, it's the least important. Like it or not, realize it or not, but most of us can watch a movie completely devoid of spectacle and be throughly entertained. However, very rarely can we watch a movie with only spectacle and be entertained -- that's because spectacle is inherently dependent upon context, and context is created by language, character, and theme.

Think of the Bourne movies, notably Bourne Supremacy -- because I also think the Bourne movies have a tone or two that Iron Man can borrow from. Let's take a look at the end spectacle in Supremacy with the car chase scene in Moscow. The entire movie we've been watching Bourne as a character deal with his past, which now has robbed him of the love of his life. Even when he doesn't want to be Bourne, people are using his identity to frame him and do bad, leading to him losing his love. His past will not stay behind him. So, he must again, against his wishes, confront his past after he loses the person he loves. As a character, he makes a decision that resonates with one of the themes: you cannot always escape your past and sometimes, your past catches up to you. So Bourne goes out to find out why Marie had to die? He's not interested just in his past, he's interested in finding out how and why his past had to take Marie. He finds out and it's so deflating, and he also finds out more about his past, most importantly about someone he robbed someone of.

So what happens? Bourne goes to Moscow, haunted by Marie, motivated by his empathy due to Marie's death, to find the daughter of one of his targets and apologize to her, TELL HER WHY her father died. But what happens? He gets pursued and must confront his wife's killer while also trying to find this girl in a high-octane car chase scene that climaxes with him deciding NOT TO KILL and also apologizing to the girl while severely injured. Thus, two more themes arrive: facing the past and making amends allows us to bury the past; understanding why things happens allows us to feel closure for them.

Bourne, in this movie, is essentially out to bring closure to himself and his past. He does that by providing closure, risking his life in doing so, for another.

This is a perfect example of marrying character, theme, language, and spectacle.

Sorry for the long dialogue here. A product of being in film school I suppose.

I hope Iron Man can do what the Bourne movies do, marry fun, spectacle, and character.

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Old 04-09-2008, 12:08 AM   #85
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

That wasn't a bad clip. I like the music.. somewhat.

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Old 04-09-2008, 12:35 AM   #86
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

I refuse to pre-judge something before Ive actually seen the damn thing. I find it always taints the experience going in if I have some reservations, in that I don't give it a proper chance. Give everything a clean slate - regardless of what Ive seen in trailers, thats my motto.

Some trailers have looked great & the film ends up being rubbish (Tombraider), & some trailers are uninspiring and the film ends up being absolutely amazing (Mr Brooks).

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The problem is that the trailers seem to indicate he's nothing but humour.
Did you miss the other bit where he says:
"I should be dead already... it must be for a reason... I just finally know... what I have to do..."
Theres also "I wanna protect the people, I put in harms way" (which you've acknowledged).

I like the fact that theres a great deal of sarcasm seen in the trailers, its what sets him apart from say, Batman - he starts off as a likeable *******, & how do you portray that? Sarcasm. If I want to see dark & brooding, I'll see Batman.

I loved the bit where he first took off in the MKII and was whooping and yelling. That would be the normal human response & what I think anyone would do if it was your first ever experience of something like that. And I'd rather have something I can relate to, than quiet calmness or something that doesn't capture the spirit of the moment.

That said Im thinking that there will be a good balance between humor & seriousness. But I wont really know until Ive seen the 2 hour film. So until then, Im going to hold off on making any judgements.

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Old 04-09-2008, 12:43 AM   #87
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

Trailers are misleading. A lot of Hitchcock trailers, mainly PSYCHO and THE BIRDS are funny as hell. But who was laughing?

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Old 04-09-2008, 03:31 AM   #88
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

Yay for bosef being a fellow film student. Where did you study?

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Old 04-09-2008, 03:35 AM   #89
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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Yay for bosef being a fellow film student. Where did you study?
I am currently studying my first year in Florida State's MFA program. Love it. Program's amazing. I just got back from studying writing in London. Amazing experience.

How about you?

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Old 04-09-2008, 04:50 AM   #90
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Great clip! personally , i like where i think they're going with this movie. Been waiting for a superhero movie that doesn't feature the lead character brooding every five minutes...or have the movie try to ask some pseudo-intelligent mumbo jumbo questions.

Can't wait for the Iron man movie now...and it's 'popcorn and fluffy'flavour!


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Old 04-09-2008, 07:23 AM   #91
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

So judging from a couple of tv spots and two trailers this movie isn't expected to be great, it's fluff and the music score sucks. Oh and Tony Stark is supposed to be depressed all the time.

Man I need to join a film school just so I can see all that from a 30 second clip.

Iron Emo, depressed all the time with a funeral march playing in the background.

No thankyou, I'll wait until July to see the somber billionare crimefighter.

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Old 04-09-2008, 11:41 AM   #92
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

I have to agree with Bosef and Saint. This movie doesn't look terribly deep, either in story, themes or the dialogue. You simply cannot argue that point based on the clips and trailers that have been provided. What you can argue is that there is obvious atmosphere of "fun adventure" and "kickassery" to it. It looks cool as hell. I won't argue that. It's amazing to see Iron Man in action after all these years.

I don't think it's going to be complete fluff. The basic idea of Iron Man won't allow for that. But I don't think it's going to be nearly as relevant as it should be. Let alone could be. Favreau strikes me as a slightly more restrained version of Mark Steven Johnson. Their approaches to things are very similar. I'm not sure yet whether that's a good thing. It may be, depending on the quality of the script iself.

Bosef makes a great point with his marriage of character and spectacle. At this point, my hope is that the film features enough of this, and provides enough of a basis to really explore the concept of Iron Man in subsequent movies.

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Old 04-09-2008, 11:59 AM   #93
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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He's testing the Mark II. He decides to go for a flight against Jarvis's recommendations and flies out of his garage. We get some cool looks from the POV inside the armor looking out. That's about it.

Someone should splice together the trailer clip when he crashes. I think that happens just seconds after he says

"handles like a dream"

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Old 04-09-2008, 01:20 PM   #94
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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So judging from a couple of tv spots and two trailers this movie isn't expected to be great, it's fluff and the music score sucks. Oh and Tony Stark is supposed to be depressed all the time.

Man I need to join a film school just so I can see all that from a 30 second clip.

Iron Emo, depressed all the time with a funeral march playing in the background.

No thankyou, I'll wait until July to see the somber billionare crimefighter.
As always, I am alarmed that there are people who don't even try to understand the point being made--and attempt to deliberately misunderstand, in your case.

I guess it's easier to say "U WANT TEH FUNERAL EMO MAN, OMG U STOOPID" than it is to actually read, comprehend, and argue cogently against our posts.

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Old 04-09-2008, 01:49 PM   #95
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

He did read, comprehend, and argue cogently against your posts. Unfortunately, you are being very stuborn and simply giving out rather than reading, comprehending and arguing cogently against his posts.


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Old 04-09-2008, 01:52 PM   #96
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It's tone is Iron Man.

It's drama is similar to Batman Begins. It takes Iron Man a good hour to appear in the gray. Perhaps slightly less.

There is humor. But, the humor fits the personality. He's sarcastic. He's a wise-ass type guy. Sometimes reminds me of a nicer Gregory House.

There aren't many action sequences. You have the escape, the revenge & meeting the jets and the final fight. I'd say on par with Batman Begins as well. It doesn't come off as a very oriented movie. In fact, imo, there could be MORE action sequences. But, they're good scenes- so it works.

Tony Stark, like MANY SOLDIERS, listens to rock music to calm him down. I've heard stories of men going into war blasting "Let the Bodies hit the floor." The revenge scene with rock music reminded me very much of these stories and accounts.

Iron Man is not a classic hero. He's first heavy metal hero. He's sarcastic. He's cool. He has a lot on his hands and a certain feeling of guilt and self that he has to constantly wrestle with, but still manages to keep his cool and calm. This is what separates him from the pack.

Tony doesn't know how to fly so the first flying (as shown) was a thrilling experience for him because it was living life on the edge. He actually didn't even intend to wear the Mach suit originally since he didn't know the fundamentals of flying. So for him this is a very new and difficult, yet exciting experience. Downey captures that.

Saying this film is fluff is like saying Batman Begins is fluff. Hell, Bruce even was somewhat sarcastic! "Does it come in black?" "A man dressing up as a bat-" etc. Same kind of sarcasm and excitement. Same number of action sequences. Higher focus on characterization and drama. As I said if there's one flaw it's there's not enough action rather than there being too much. Unless you consider taking off into the sky and crash landing moments later an action sequence akin to Bruce just driving the Tumber around the garage area.

All information from novelization.

Note on specific 'light' scenes:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Iron Man is not publicly known until the very end of the film. The "hero" press conference is the final scene of the film with a certain twist unlike any other superhero movie to date! For the most part. Really leaves the door open with what they can delve into with the sequel.
Agreed

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It's Iron Man, not Iron Emo.
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Old 04-09-2008, 02:09 PM   #97
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

If nothing else, this is the two halfs of the genre argument, those who choose to outthink there own standards, and those of us that make the live action renderings second to the published work.

I mean this is Iron Man-damn. If you want Citizen Kane for every superhero movie it won't and shouldn't happen. Oh But of course this means it should all be dumbed down right? I mean this is akin to the merits of the horror genre over the last 30 years. IT"S A HORROR MOVIE.

by the by the new clip is cool.

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Old 04-09-2008, 02:10 PM   #98
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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He did read, comprehend, and argue cogently against your posts. Unfortunately, you are being very stuborn and simply giving out rather than reading, comprehending and arguing cogently ahainst his posts.
thank you.

Another thing, from the very begining, Favreau has been saying he wanted a combination of James Bond and Indiana Jones type character and judging from the trailers he got him. They weren't going for the dark and brooding Bruce Wayne or the way too serious, never cracks a smile Jason Bourne.

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Old 04-09-2008, 02:55 PM   #99
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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Originally Posted by bosef982 View Post
I am currently studying my first year in Florida State's MFA program. Love it. Program's amazing. I just got back from studying writing in London. Amazing experience.

How about you?
I graduated '06 at University of Texas at Austin in the bachelor program.

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Old 04-09-2008, 03:15 PM   #100
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Default Re: New Clip at Apple.com

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Originally Posted by TheVileOne View Post
I graduated '06 at University of Texas at Austin in the bachelor program.
That's a great program. I got into USC's grad and FSU's and picked FSU because it's amazingly, considering its location, up there in the rankings, has a great reputation, and had the screenwriting/playwrighting focus I was interested in...I'm also a Florida resident so it's dirt cheap.

But we're film school kin!

Sometimes, I wish half the people on these boards could sit through a film theory or narrative class.

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